NCL dropping the e-muster??

[New2cruise2022]

50 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

1 hour ago, RocketMan275 said:

BTW, I see you've dropped the argument that we have to do this because the Captain wants it.

I believe you've misrepresented this idea from another poster.

My argument the the Captain said so was a figurative representation of this inescapable conclusion: We can form opinions whether we like the muster drill or not, whether can come on CC and discuss if it is annoying, dangerous, or effective — but once you board the ship, you see a guest. There is a crew there to serve you and make you comfortable. But when it comes to safety and procedures, the guest is under the command of the crew. 

[chengkp75]

6 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

Nor, it seems does the crew get much from the drill since it has to be repeated every week. If this is a learning experience for the crew, it is a poor experience since there doesn't seem to be any retention of the learning. 

So, one last response.  If repetition indicates poor training and retention, why is it that fire fighters train every single day, as does the military, and other first responders.  Repetition is what builds "muscle memory" in the crew.  Ask any first responder, and they will tell you that regardless of how much training a person gets, until that person actually faces an emergency, you won't know how the person will react.  "Muscle memory" is what helps to override conscious thought, and makes the person react as they have trained.  Perhaps a little interaction with local first responders would do some good, though maybe not.

 

I have participated in multiple training and drills, 26 weeks a year, for 46 years, yet I don't feel that without the repetition I would forget what I've learned.

 

But, again, since the repeated argument is that this is best for passenger comfort and convenience, yeah, I'll leave it at this.

[RocketMan275]

39 minutes ago, phoenix1181 said:

Can't believe this argument is still going on. 

 

Like it or not, it appears emuster is going away.  Arguing about what is most convenient for you (the passenger) isn't going to change that.  Getting your panties in a bunch isn't going to change it either so deal with it as required and then have a great cruise!

 

When all other arguments fail, one can always resort to the "do it as I say".

 

BTW, I can assure  you that I will mention how screwed up the old fashioned muster is on every one of those surveys NCL sends.

[PATRLR]

40 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

Nor, it seems does the crew get much from the drill since it has to be repeated every week.

You apparently have no experience or understanding of how best to train for things like this.  As a first responder, we constantly train on many topics, repetitively.  And I am damn glad that we do: The muscle memory is the obvious benefit, but, we always improve, even if just a bit, each time we do it. 

[RocketMan275]

7 minutes ago, PATRLR said:

You apparently have no experience or understanding of how best to train for things like this.  As a first responder, we constantly train on many topics, repetitively.  And I am damn glad that we do: The muscle memory is the obvious benefit, but, we always improve, even if just a bit, each time we do it. 

I spent 22 years training soldiers so I do have experience.  One of the important things I learned is this: training which wastes the soldiers time isn't effective.  So, far, the only credible reason for reverting to the old systems is that system is prefered by the regulators who inspect the musters.  That certainly isn't a good reason to waste the time of 4000 passengers each and every cruise.  If the passengers were to learn that this wasn't for their good, that they are just training aides, there would be quite the backlash.  Once again, I'm in favor of good training but there must be a better way.

Edited November 25, 2022 by RocketMan275

[PATRLR]

39 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Ask any first responder, and they will tell you that regardless of how much training a person gets, until that person actually faces an emergency, you won't know how the person will react.  "Muscle memory" is what helps to override conscious thought, and makes the person react as they have trained. 

I am a first responder for over 25 years now, and a trainer for over 15 years.  I agree 100% with what is written above.  

As an example, back when backboards were commonly used for spinal immobilization, we trained the very complex process of getting an injured patient on the board, constantly.  When the time came to use one, as a team we could do it very efficiently and effectively - we could focus on the patient and not on the process of using the equipment.  In an emergency, you don't want the responders thinking about the process, they need to be able to execute the process while thinking and focusing  on the situation.

Edited November 25, 2022 by PATRLR

[ontheweb]

2 hours ago, RocketMan275 said:

 Passengers are not training aids.  Figure out a better way.

Passengers are the people they are training to SAVE.

[RocketMan275]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

So, one last response.  If repetition indicates poor training and retention, why is it that fire fighters train every single day, as does the military, and other first responders.  Repetition is what builds "muscle memory" in the crew.  

It's an example of poor training if something as simple as scanning a card and reading from a cue card must be repeated every week for many, many years.  

[RocketMan275]

30 minutes ago, PATRLR said:

As an example, back when backboards were commonly used for spinal immobilization, we trained the very complex process of getting an injured patient on the board, constantly.  

A very poor analogy for the actions required of the crew.  Scanning a card, reading from a cue card, are not comparable to treating patients with back injuries.

[RocketMan275]

23 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

Passengers are the people they are training to SAVE.

Then treat them with respect and not as training aides.

Or, how about admitting that the old fashioned muster is only for crew training?

[PATRLR]

10 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

A very poor analogy for the actions required of the crew.  Scanning a card, reading from a cue card, are not comparable to treating patients with back injuries.

You apparently were selectively reading what @chengkp75 was writing above.  PATRLR out.

[graphicguy]

Interesting conversation.

 

But, what it really boils down to from behind my keyboard is shifting from…

 

…getting guests from wherever they are on the ship, to their cabins to get their life vests, put on the life vests correctly and then getting them designated meeting places…..

 

To Now (or lat least up until a week or so ago), the process was/is…

 

..get the guests from wherever they are on the ship, to the designated meeting place, give them a life vest and show them now to put it on.

 

Is one better than the other?  I dunno.  It does seem the latter has fewer steps and offers crew more control.

 

But again, I’m not trained in any of that.

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, RocketMan275 said:

  Nor, it seems does the crew get much from the drill since it has to be repeated every week. If this is a learning experience for the crew, it is a poor experience since there doesn't seem to be any retention of the learning.  

 

 

1 hour ago, RocketMan275 said:

I spent 22 years training soldiers so I do have experience.  

These two comments together make me just SMH.

35 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

It's an example of poor training if something as simple as scanning a card and reading from a cue card must be repeated every week for many, many years.  

 

33 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

A very poor analogy for the actions required of the crew.  Scanning a card, reading from a cue card, are not comparable to treating patients with back injuries.

And, as I've stated repeatedly, but you continue to ignore, is that the part that the muster station leaders have "scanning cards and reading a briefing" is a very small part of the overall drill.  I guess you ignore the crew on stairwells and passageways guiding you.  There are hundreds of crew assigned to passenger muster drill that you never see during the drill (though I doubt another repetition will work any better).

 

And, you miss the picture when you say there would be no reason to hire passenger substitutes, since without them, when does the crew get the practice in dealing with thousands of milling cattle?

[RocketMan275]

28 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

And, you miss the picture when you say there would be no reason to hire passenger substitutes, since without them, when does the crew get the practice in dealing with thousands of milling cattle?

You think it's funny that I would respect my soldiers enought to ensure their time isn't wasted on training that isn't effective?

 

The crew gets to practice dealing with thousands of milling cattle when they head them aboard and to the buffet.

 

I'm all in favor of training, I just believe the emuster was a superior training tool for the passengers.  I also believe there are better ways to train the crew than "we've always done it this way".

[ontheweb]

4 hours ago, RocketMan275 said:

You think it's funny that I would respect my soldiers enought to ensure their time isn't wasted on training that isn't effective?

 

The crew gets to practice dealing with thousands of milling cattle when they head them aboard and to the buffet.

 

I'm all in favor of training, I just believe the emuster was a superior training tool for the passengers.  I also believe there are better ways to train the crew than "we've always done it this way".

Since you believe there are better ways to train the crew, why don't you share them? And exactly how do you think the new muster drill was a superior training tool?

[RocketMan275]

6 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

Since you believe there are better ways to train the crew, why don't you share them? And exactly how do you think the new muster drill was a superior training tool?

I have in my responses.

 

First  you keep the emuster for the passengers.  It teaches them all they need to know to evacuate the ship.

Second, you stop using the passengers as training aids for training the crew.

Third, you recognize that there are better muster stations than along the boat deck.  

Fourth, you implement a muster system similar to RCCI on the Oasis class ships where the passengers are collected at interior spaces, given training, and moved to the boat deck when necessary.

Fifth, the crew is already demonstrating every week their ability/training in clearing the ship during disembarkation and in herding masses of passengers during embarkation.

Sixth, you recognize that doing things the old way because that's the way it's always been done isn't necessarily the best.

[chengkp75]

10 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

First  you keep the emuster for the passengers.  It teaches them all they need to know to evacuate the ship.

And it teaches them nothing about what an actual muster and emergency would be like.

 

11 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

Second, you stop using the passengers as training aids for training the crew.

See above about the training for passengers as well.  But, I guess under your suggestion, that a fire drill at a business building should just ring the alarm and "simulate" evacuating the building, so that everyone can just wander to the outside sometime during the day to "know where to go", and to not use employees as training aids.

 

13 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

Third, you recognize that there are better muster stations than along the boat deck. 

Where are these "better" muster stations?  What is the consideration for "better"?  Passenger comfort?  Or, perhaps spaces specifically constructed to be used as muster stations, based on safety considerations?

 

14 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

Fourth, you implement a muster system similar to RCCI on the Oasis class ships where the passengers are collected at interior spaces, given training, and moved to the boat deck when necessary.

See above.  The interior spaces on Oasis are designed and constructed to be muster stations, they are not randomly chosen.

 

15 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

Fifth, the crew is already demonstrating every week their ability/training in clearing the ship during disembarkation and in herding masses of passengers during embarkation.

So, "herding" a couple thousand people over several hours is equivalent to herding those same thousands of pax in a few minutes.

 

17 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

Sixth, you recognize that doing things the old way because that's the way it's always been done isn't necessarily the best.

And, I've never said this, and the IMO agreed to study the new drill, as a possible revision, but it appears that they are not satisfied with the results of months of the new drill.  So, they are not just saying this is the way we've always done it, they are willing to change, if that change provides an increase in safety.

[ontheweb]

4 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

And it teaches them nothing about what an actual muster and emergency would be like.

 

See above about the training for passengers as well.  But, I guess under your suggestion, that a fire drill at a business building should just ring the alarm and "simulate" evacuating the building, so that everyone can just wander to the outside sometime during the day to "know where to go", and to not use employees as training aids.

 

Where are these "better" muster stations?  What is the consideration for "better"?  Passenger comfort?  Or, perhaps spaces specifically constructed to be used as muster stations, based on safety considerations?

 

See above.  The interior spaces on Oasis are designed and constructed to be muster stations, they are not randomly chosen.

 

So, "herding" a couple thousand people over several hours is equivalent to herding those same thousands of pax in a few minutes.

 

And, I've never said this, and the IMO agreed to study the new drill, as a possible revision, but it appears that they are not satisfied with the results of months of the new drill.  So, they are not just saying this is the way we've always done it, they are willing to change, if that change provides an increase in safety.

Just to add to what you wrote---you have also repeatedly said that there were things the crew did behind the scenes that we passengers do not know of. @RocketMan275 has studiously avoided this in his assertion as fact that the new drill is better.

[RocketMan275]

11 hours ago, ontheweb said:

Just to add to what you wrote---you have also repeatedly said that there were things the crew did behind the scenes that we passengers do not know of. @RocketMan275 has studiously avoided this in his assertion as fact that the new drill is better.

No, I have not avoided the fact that crew does many things behind the scenes.  I have asserted that there are other ways to train the crew without using passengers as training aids.

[ontheweb]

1 hour ago, RocketMan275 said:

No, I have not avoided the fact that crew does many things behind the scenes.  I have asserted that there are other ways to train the crew without using passengers as training aids.

Right, you have made an assertion (your words) that there are other ways for the behind the scene training, but you have made no concrete proposal saying what those other ways are.

[newbe dave]

On 11/23/2022 at 12:51 PM, RocketMan275 said:

Fine but I have an expectation that person won't waste my time in useless endeavors.  

So you do not want to waste your time on a muster drill.  Your 30 minutes is better spent elsewhere.  We understand.  

 

But you will waste how many minutes uselessly arguing your point on a forum? Is your time not important now?

 

It seems very hypocritical that you would spend so many posts and so much of your time to argue against a required safety procedure (effective or not) that was commonplace before Covid from the perspective that the Muster Drill is a waste of your 30 minutes of time once per cruise. 

[prmssk]

Have there been any further reports of a traditional muster happening?  This post started with one report (from Emma Cruises) and I think I saw a comment about a traditional muster on the Spirit in September.  Are these isolated incidents (that could have to do with things other than a change in NCL policy) or are we actually seeing this implemented fleet wide?

[WoodByWright]

2 minutes ago, prmssk said:

Have there been any further reports of a traditional muster happening?  This post started with one report (from Emma Cruises) and I think I saw a comment about a traditional muster on the Spirit in September.  Are these isolated incidents (that could have to do with things other than a change in NCL policy) or are we actually seeing this implemented fleet wide?

I saw one report from a person in a Facebook group. But so far I haven't seen it fleetwide. Sounds like something they are currently testing as they haven't made any announcements.

[RocketMan275]

1 hour ago, ontheweb said:

Right, you have made an assertion (your words) that there are other ways for the behind the scene training, but you have made no concrete proposal saying what those other ways are.

I have posted my proposal upthread.  

44 minutes ago, newbe dave said:

It seems very hypocritical that you would spend so many posts and so much of your time to argue against a required safety procedure (effective or not) that was commonplace before Covid from the perspective that the Muster Drill is a waste of your 30 minutes of time once per cruise. 

IOW, no one should post any comments on CC since that would be a waste of time.  

[ontheweb]

1 hour ago, RocketMan275 said:

I have posted my proposal upthread.  

IOW, no one should post any comments on CC since that would be a waste of time.  

🤦‍♂️, perhaps you should send in your resume to NCL and ask to be hired to implement training procedures for the crew re the muster drill.