Live from the Bliss March 12-26, 2023: Letters Home to Dad

[YVRteacher]

1 hour ago, NikiPinkston said:

So enjoying your review, and especially the Behind the Scenes Tour. Is the tour only for Platinum and above? (We won't be platinum until after our next cruse on the Bliss this May, but I would love to do this tour.) The Bliss is my favorite NCL ship and I love reading all of your positive comments. We don't mind the once-a-day cleaning of the staterooms, but I've been reading comments from other ships about how overworked and unhappy the stateroom attendants are & that made me sad. Have you seen any of that? As always, loving your review and your wonderful sense of humor! I also love Tri-Bond Trivia. We'd make an awesome team!

Hi Niki!  I would love to play Tri-bond with you!

 

Every cabin attendant I’ve seen has said hi and smiled.  I had a long conversation with mine yesterday and he was a joy to talk with and is happy.  My perception is that the management team on the Bliss is kind, positive and strong and they have created a team atmosphere.  This is similar to the Jewel whereas on the Encore it was obvious management was operating from a top down perspective and watching rather than helping.  
The Bliss has a wonderful feeling on board.

[YVRteacher]

Day 2 part 2

I may start a new series called “incorrect information provided by crew.”

 

For the first instalment here is the tale of the Internet Cafe.

Me:

The NCL app still shows yesterday’s Freestyle Daily.

 

Cast member from the Jersey Boys who got stuck doing a shift at the Internet Cafe and clearly does not want to be there:

Yes, we’ve been hearing that a lot today.

 

Me: how do I fix this?

 

Mr. Jersey Boy:

You don’t.  It’s not accurate anyhow.  Just use the paper version.  It’s more accurate anyhow.

 

Me:

They are the same 

 

Mr. Jersey Boy:

No they aren’t.  The version on the app does not have the most up to date information. The paper version does.

 

Me: that’s not true.  They are the same but if a change happens the version on the app gets updated.

 

Mr. Jersey Boy:

Ok. They are the same.

 

Me: can you help me?

 

Him: No

 

Me (points at Internet cafe manager)

Can he help me?

 

Mr. Jersey Boy

No

 

Me: ok. Thank you.

(Goes to the bar and orders a margarita.)

 

 

[NikiPinkston]

Thank you, I'm so glad to hear that, @YVRteacher! 🙂 We've always enjoyed chatting with and getting to know our cabin attendant a little bit. Management's attitude makes such a huge difference.

[YVRteacher]

[fstuff1]

Spoke with the hotel manager. There are 1,045 people age 20 and younger.

 

[fstuff1]

46 minutes ago, Funky Fusion FoodsJ said:

They are busier than ever:  staffing has been reduced so they may only clean your room once per day, but they're now responsible for more than twice as many rooms......

On our cruise, it's 4700 pax but only 1700 crew.

 

Heck, 1700 crew isn't enough for normal Max capacity of 4000.

(Should be 2:1 pax to crew ratio so 2k crew)

 

So at 15% understaffed I under normal circumstances much less this overfull cruise?

But it doesn't feel like the ship being understaffed

Edited March 14, 2023 by fstuff1

[fstuff1]

Interesting Priority tender experience for high latitude members (gold+):

 

We met in Manhattan room (7aft).

They bought us to 4 fwd.

We passed those with ncl excursions. They met at theater (7fwd).

They were walking to 4aft.

 

I guess they want people to get their steps in?

 

4mid tender is for haven.

Edited March 14, 2023 by fstuff1

[YVRteacher]

Day whatever this is

 

No one cares what I had for breakfast but people in the Garden Cafe were acting like there was an eggs, bacon and hash brown apocalypse.  The line cutters were in full force and I may have used my teacher more than once.  There were no tables inside or outside so I sat on a lounge chair.  Sideways.

 

Sail in to Cabo offered blue skies, hot sun and baby whales! The water is so clean and clear that we could see the whales swimming beside the ship.  Amazing!

 

You know how some excursions are ok and some are terrible and some are wonderful? Today’s was truly one of my most favourites and this is out of hundreds of NCL shore excursions.  I’ve loved all the water-based activities I’ve done here but after doing a lot of reading and research I knew I would the town of Todos Santos.  There is a bad review on NCL’s site but don’t let that deter you. Todos Santos is a photographer’s and an art lover’s dream.  Although I don’t usually enjoy long bus rides I did love the drive through the Baja desert to get from Cabo to Todos Santos.  Here’s what I learned:

 

-the Baja desert covers 70% of the peninsula and holds 60% of the wildlife in the state.

-this is a protected ecosystem

-organ pipe cactus (look like saguaro) are endemic and they rely entirely on fruit bats to survive

-there was no highway on this side of the pacific until 2011.  It connects Cabo to Todos Santos. 

These photos were all taken through the bus window.

-we are driving alongside the Sierra Lacuna range which is 2000m above sea level

-water from the mountains is the one and only source of water for Cabo

-Todos Santos is considered a “magic town” because it has no big development and the original way of life has been preserved. 

-a condition for being a magic town is there can’t be large resorts

-we are one hour away from La Paz which is the capital of this state

-7000 people live in Todos Santos year round.

 

Our tour begins in the cultural centre/museum.  It used to be a school but closed in the 1970s.  It was decided to preserve the building and create a museum of the town’s art and history.  These photos were all taken at the museum.

This mural was painted by the elementary school students in 1933.

After a short walking tour of Todos Santos we went to the Hotel California for lunch.  None of us knew the tour included lunch because it said “light snack” on the ticket.  Everyone at my table devoured the delicious food.  The tamale is for dessert and is made from pineapple and pilloncillo.

After lunch we had time to explore on our own.  Todos Santos is known as a place that honours and celebrates art and that is evident as you move from street to street.  I could have spent hours here and will definitely return.

The only downsides to the day were how hot it was and the driver took his hands off the wheels to read and send What’s App messages while driving at 120km/hour.  Yikes!!!

 

There was a loooooooong line back in Cabo for the tenders and it moved quickly.  NCL had all their managers from all departments on shore to help with crowd movement and answer questions so when people talk about how hard cabin attendants are working they also need to know that EVERYONE is working hard and putting in long days.  My experience today getting off and on the ship was extremely smooth and major props go to the security team, the Shore Excursion staff and every single staff member who was working today.  What an impressive feat to get so many people off at a tender port so smoothly.  They were calm and organized and the process felt calm and organized. 

 

Right now I’m in the theatre drinking a delicious Mai Tai waiting for Six to begin.

 

I’m a little worried that the cast will be distracted by my very red sunburnt nose.  Hopefully they can persevere. 

 

Today was wonderful.

 

Update: the show is about to start and my Mai Tai glass is empty…

[YVRteacher]

10 hours ago, fstuff1 said:

Interesting Priority tender experience for high latitude members (gold+):

 

We met in Manhattan room (7aft).

They bought us to 4 fwd.

We passed those with ncl excursions. They met at theater (7fwd).

They were walking to 4aft.

 

I guess they want people to get their steps in?

 

4mid tender is for haven.

Not true.  I was on an NCL excursion and we did not walk to 4 aft.  We were on the middle tender platform.

The Bliss had three tender platforms and it was extremely organized.

Edited March 15, 2023 by YVRteacher

[kruz]

I am loving your review!! I have a cabin question. Are any of the walls magnetic? On other ships I've brought magnetic jokes for extra storage and they have helped a lot! Thank you for taking the time to write this and brining me on vacation with you!! 

[SimplyAlbert]

20 hours ago, fstuff1 said:

 

overworked room stewards?

what do they do now in the evening since they're no longer cleaning our cabins?

On our Breakaway cruise in May our stateroom attendant went from 12 rooms a day with a helper (2x per day) to 22 cabins without a helper (1x a day).  We spoke with another passenger whose attendant had 28 cabins.

[cruiseny4life]

On 3/13/2023 at 11:26 PM, YVRteacher said:

The Garden Cafe is the busiest I’ve ever seen with people lined up at each station.  If you go farther toward the bow there are no lines at the different stations. What surprised me is how many NCL crew members (management, spa, entertainers) were eating at the buffet and sitting in the Garden Cafe on a cruise with this many passengers at peak lunch time.  It used to be certain staff could eat at the Garden Cafe at off-peak times which is fine.  Passengers are trying to find tables and crew are using tables.  How do you feel about this?

As always, I'm loving your review! The snark, the lovely descriptions, and the brutally honest words are what keep me coming back to your reviews. Thank you!

 

While I suppose the crew could find a non-rush hour time to visit Garden Cafe, I actually applaud NCL for allowing crew to use buffet area. I just wish it could somehow be opened up to the rest of the crew (I understand the logistics and do know it would be virtually impossible). So, while I don't necessarily disagree with you about the crew eating during off-peak times, I definitely am glad they are able to have a meal above board where they can see out the windows.

 

Now, ask me if I try to find a seat in the buffet and they're all taken up by the cast of Footloose. Maybe I'll give you a different answer! 🙂 

Edited March 15, 2023 by cruiseny4life

[YVRteacher]

5 hours ago, kruz said:

I am loving your review!! I have a cabin question. Are any of the walls magnetic? On other ships I've brought magnetic jokes for extra storage and they have helped a lot! Thank you for taking the time to write this and brining me on vacation with you!! 

Yes the walls are magnetic.  I’m using magnets.

[www3traveler]

Do you know who the Chief Engineer is on this cruise?

[fstuff1]

13 hours ago, YVRteacher said:

Not true.  I was on an NCL excursion and we did not walk to 4 aft.  We were on the middle tender platform.

The Bliss had three tender platforms and it was extremely organized.

oh.. i assumed ncl excursions were going to 4aft because there was a guy with a haven sign standing like a guard at the 4 mid tender when i passed there.

 

[Prnsessmoi]

On the pictured Entertainment listing, it shows the comedy acts, with dates and times, held in The Social. Then, it shows 2 dates and times for the Bliss Theater, but doesn't specify what acts. Would that be 1 18+ show for each of the comedians?

 

[YVRteacher]

Day 4

 

Puerto Vallarta

 

I woke up this morning SAAH*

and it took awhile before I could stand up and get going.  It’s not rough or rocky.  

 

SAAH= seasick as all heck

 

Something I love about the studio cabins is the espresso machine in the studio lounge.  I’m savouring my mornings with a latte, cappuccino or cafe mocha (I just add hot chocolate to a latte.) This morning a woman came in, barged in front of me, shoved her own mug onto the milk spouts and was poised to push the button when I said “oh no no no…”  I explained how one is supposed to use a mug then transfer the hot beverage to one’s own drink vessel.

 

I always wonder if the people I write about are also on Cruise Critic and what their perspective would be.  Maybe I’ll log on tomorrow and read something a little like this:

So there I was.  Minding my own business in the Studio Lounge.  I just brought my extra large coffee carafe to fill with three lattes and an extra helping of steamed milk.  I did catch a glimpse of this phenomenal-looking teacher librarian but it didn’t occur to me that she was about to get herself a hot beverage from the espresso machine even though she was holding a coffee mug and was one step away from reaching said machine.  Luckily she stopped me from contaminating all the solo travellers with my germs and I am so grateful for her advice and guidance.  I’m also so thrilled to have teachers on board telling me what to do as it makes me feel youthful.

#blessed

 

If I get sick on this cruise I’m blaming budging mug lady.

 

I need to find a different option for breakfast. The Garden Cafe has the same food at each station and the line ups are massive and there are no seats.  I guess I could wake up earlier and go to the dining room but I’m on vacation.

 

NCL is making money off of my beverage package this cruise.  It is day 4 and the only drinks I’ve had are:

-one margarita at Los Lobos

-one mudslide that the bartender threw away

-one margarita on deck 19

-one Mai Tai in the show last night

-one purple margarita in the casino yesterday 

-one Bahama Mama this morning during sail in

I have been so busy I haven’t had time to drink.  Or read.  I thought I would spent a lot of time reading but I haven’t read at all.  There is a plethora of activities on the ship and one could cruise for many weeks and always have something new to do.  I get why there are so many cruisers on the Bliss doing B2B.

 

For today’s excursion we met in the theatre at 11:00 and the process of getting to the meeting point and on the bus took 52 minutes.  It was quick getting off the ship but the wait in a line up once on shore was what took up so much time.  The fruit-sniffing dogs were out in full force today, catching people trying to take food from the buffet ashore.

 

I tend to experience life as either wonderful or terrible.  Today’s excursion was terrible.  Truly terrible.  It was supposed to be Tequila, Tiles and Shopping.  In reality it was get on the bus, drive to the town centre, walk two blocks, try not to die while walking in traffic, get on the bus, drive one block to look at a church, get on the bus, drive two blocks, get off the bus, go to a jewelry shop, get on the bus, get off the bus in the middle of traffic, try not to get killed, walk through traffic and go to a tile store (not the factory as they are no longer allowed to use fire within the centre of town.)

Here are some tiles I didn’t buy.  Notice anything odd about the alphabet?  

After the tile store we got on the bus and sat in traffic.  This tour included lunch and by 3:00pm we still hadn’t eaten or consumed any tequila.  I was grumpy and dizzy and dripping hot because the air con above my seat didn’t work.  We got stuck in a traffic jam.  At this point I was done so I asked the tour guide if I could get off the bus and go back to the ship and surprisingly he said yes so out I hopped onto the Mexican highway.  (If I ever write a book I’m using that line!)  I walked to Wal Mart and enjoyed seeing all the products we don’t get in Canada.  

There is more hot sauce in this one aisle than in all the grocery stores in 

Vancouver.  We are not spicy people.  

Returning to the Bliss, I had lunch in the Observation Lounge, a cookie in the studio lounge and took a little nap (in the cabin, not the studio lounge.  I am not a public napper) then came up to the sundeck to relax.  I think I will cancel my excursion in PV for next week and just stay on the Bliss. 

As I was doing my part to hold down a lounge chair a massive bird was circling overhead.  I was the only person up on deck 19 and big-winged-bird looked like it was scoping out a target on which to make a deposit.  This felt precarious so I left.  I have a new favourite activity: walking laps around the Waterfront on a lovely warm evening and looking at people’s food.  It’s a perfect night for outdoor dining.

 

While I was waiting for the magician, Rob Rasner, to begin I overheard the man behind me complaining that the bartender put an orange in his drink instead of a pineapple.  Good to meet a kindred spirit.  The magician is having an off night.  At one point he said, “why am I so off tonight?” If I hadn’t seen him before I probably would have enjoyed the show but it’s the same (with the addition of some flubs) as on previous cruises.

 

Craving music, I spent a little bit of time listening to Neilly Rich Band in Q and Archie in both the atrium and the Observation Lounge.  Great music!  I moved to a seat behind Archie so I could watch him play the piano.  He is one talented guy!

 

Because the ship is so crowded I take stairs instead of the elevators.  My calves are burning.  I’m going to go home with toned legs and a flabby tummy from all the soft serve.

 

I realized today I have not shared the Saga of the Crepes in the Buffet.  It goes like this:

Day One: no crepes

Day Two: no crepes

Day Three: no crepes but the sign at the station reads CREPES

Day Four: no crepes but the sign reads CREPES and there is a big tub of raw red, green and yellow bell peppers.  Do you think we are getting closer to having crepes??

I spent the evening in the Observation Lounge listening to (and greatly appreciating) Archie while drinking Old Fashioneds.   I feel happy and grown up.  Whiskey does that.

 

PS-I put laundry in this morning.  15 items and no bag tearing.  No need to pack heavy duty tape, garbage bags or bungee cords.  I did not roll or origami my clothes; rather, I just put them in the bag like a sensible person would do.

Edited March 16, 2023 by YVRteacher

[dcipjr]

8 hours ago, YVRteacher said:

No need to pack heavy duty tape, garbage bags or bungee cords.

 

No, no, no....what you should be doing is packing an over-the-door shoe organizer to hold all the heavy duty tape, garbage bags, and bungee cords. Don't forget the 16-port power strip for all of the electronic devices you're carrying. I sure hope you didn't forget the screwdriver, 10 extra pillows, or your crockpot.

[newbie101]

@YVRteacher, I believe I met you with my daughter and wife in the return tender line back in Cabo earlier in the cruise (also from the Vancouver area). I really understand now what you were saying about reduced service levels.

 

I will be writing my own long (and disappointed) review when we get back home. But wanted to say it was very nice to meet you the other day.

 

Cheers,

Dave

[YVRteacher]

Day 5

Mazatlan

 

So, I’ve been on board for 5 days and the ONLY thing I’ve used the internet for is posting in this thread on Cruise Critic.  The internet is so slow that I am now out of free minutes (150 as part of the Free at Sea package.)  I wish I could trade drinks for wifi.  Every time I log in, post and log out it takes 15 minutes.

 

Maybe NCL did this on purpose because today’s post is not going to be a favourable one.

 

Best part of the day?  I read my book up on deck 19 while sipping frozen margaritas.  I’m reading The Book of Two Ways by Jodi Picoult.  I did not go ashore since I’ve been to Mazatlan a lot and have done everything I want to do.  I relish the chance to be on a less crowded ship. 

 

The other great parts of today included spending some time at the Sugarcane mojito bar and this

 

I have been waiting for this!  Crepes actually shouldn’t have happened for me tonight.  I was supposed to be Dining with the Officers but that was a disaster of epic proportions.  

 

First of all, the dinner with the officers was scheduled for Friday.  I had alternate dinner and show reservations for tonight but oh well, that’s not a big deal.  I was covered in sunscreen so showered and got ready.  I went with copper hues on my lips and eyelids to best coordinate with my sunburn. 

Anyhow, we met in the atrium at 5:10pm and were seated at two long rectangular tables  in Savor at 5:15.  There were two NCL staff members (second engineer and group coordinator) sitting together at the end of one table.  No name tags for anybody.  No group photo.  No round table where conversation can happen.  The NCL staff members clearly did not want to be there.  The second engineer even told us this would be his last one.  They barely spoke.  The Cruise Next Manager came and sat at the other table.  Every other dinner with the officers I’ve done has been a positive experience.  This was awkward and awful.  The waitress kept leaning over me to reach the other side of the table then she dumped a full drink on a woman who handled it with way more grace than I would have.  We had to tell the waitress to get a new tablecloth for our table.  I also told the waitress I wasn’t comfortable with her touching me and leaning on me so much but this never changed.  I had pre-ordered a vegetarian meal with Carmela, the GM’s secretary when I called her to confirm dinner but she obviously did not follow through.  As mentioned we were seated at 5:15.  By 6:50pm my table all had their meals and I had nothing.  I kept saying for them to eat but they didn’t.  I had eaten a light lunch knowing we were meeting for dinner at 5:10 and by now it was almost 7:00pm.  I was so dizzy I couldn’t even put words into sentences.  I excused myself and left.  We had a terrible, clumsy waitress with no spatial awareness and I obviously can’t speak to the quality of food since I didn’t get a meal.  The maître d came to say sorry but you can’t eat sorry.  The waitress offered me wine but I had already declined the wine, telling her I don’t like wine.

What would you have done?

 

I am not feeling like NCL values it’s repeat customers.  Am I going to let this ruin my cruise?  No.  Am I disenchanted with NCL?  Absolutely.  It was so bad that if I had any internet minutes left I would be googling Celebrity, Royal Caribbean and Princess to book my next cruises.  My friend is on Princess right now and the meal they had as part of being the most traveled guests looks like heavenly exquisiteness.  I’m not a person who expects luxury, but I certainly expected better than this.  At least the crepe in the Garden Cafe was delicious.  

I went back to the cabin for a few minutes and told myself I couldn’t let this one dinner ruin the evening so I grabbed a light sweater and got back to enjoying the cruise.  I tried to watch The Perfect Couple but I wasn’t in the mood so went to the comedian, Armando Anto, and he made me smile.  He made everyone smile so much he received a standing ovation.  Armando was born in France to Iranian parents and now lives in Los Angeles.  He is a classically trained violinist and his show intertwines comedy with music.  After the comedy show in the Social I went to the District because Archie was there.  I sat with two guys who were great to talk with in between sets.  Archie got the full crowd singing along and it was fun.  I ordered an old fashioned but the waitress said she didn’t think they could make one so I tried a Jackhammer instead.  That made my lips numb but it was so good.  At 11:00pm I went back to the Social to see Kristin Key.  She is hilarious!  Brilliant writer.  Excellent singer and musician.  Super funny.  Great show.  I would go see her on tour.  She has a show on Saturday in the theatre that I will definitely attend.

 

3 times today I witnessed management correcting staff publicly and way too harshly.  This should be happening behind the scenes.

[mearsfansinboise]

Oof - with the exception of crêpes (that I just wrote down day 5, Mazatlan, crêpes for when we sail the week after next) your day 5 was no bueno.  That dinner with the officers is BS.  The people who were there and didn't want to be, no planned conversation, the service .... that dinner should have been special.  Like you said - it's your upper tier guests who sail with you often and spend a lot of time and money with you; THEY should be treated like royalty!  Sorry ...

[Travelicious]

1 hour ago, YVRteacher said:

3 times today I witnessed management correcting staff publicly and way too harshly.  This should be happening behind the scenes.

Yes!  So unprofessional when done in front of guests!

[NikiPinkston]

So sorry about your crappy day, but you have the best attitude. I know that there are always bumps in the road, but NCL seems be having more than their share lately.

[Oakman58]

I'm enjoying your report and I'm sorry to read you had such a negative experience at your dinner with the officers.  

[mking8288]

49 minutes ago, mearsfansinboise said:

< snipped > That dinner with the ... people who were there and didn't want to be, no planned conversation, the service .... that dinner should have been special ... should be treated like royalty!  

and to @YVRteacher 

Wow, here's my "takeaway" - fortunately, our recent one on the Getaway was better.  GM's secretary or executive assistant is the delegated staff responsible for the guest lists, date & time, dispatching the invites and re-confirming with the invitees, preparing name tags and greeting the "upper tiered" Latitutdes guests in the atrium/guest services area and escort the small group to designated dining.  

 

That reflects poorly, very poorly on ship's senior management - I would most definitely leave a well written note to the GM, as well as on the post-cruise eSurvey, we should not leave without letting them know while not letting individual members of their leadership team ruined our onboard experience. 

 

I do wonder why they seemed to prefer to use the rectangular or long table format that seats up to 10, 2 officers and 8 guests vs. using the larger round tables that can seat 10 - perhaps, this is part of their strategic plan ... absolutely agreed that the semi-circular/round table format is better suited to conversation and listening vs. the long table with someone chatting on the opposite end ... and, in the noisy MDR environment.  Pre-Covid, we're on either the GEM or Dawn and the group was seated around a large round table in one corner, away from others and were able to carry on the conversation & listen.  

 

We also didn't get a group photo taken either, unless last year on the Joy ... recently, someone reported that s/he was at one of these DWO and was asked to "pay" for the group photo - talk about being disgraceful for doing that.  Next time, maybe I will take our "selfie stick" along, just in case, LOL.  

 

The waiter and assistant that catered to our dining were very good, kept the wine and other beverages (sparkling water, etc.) flowing non-stop all evening, and, it's not as if they (including the maître d and asst. manager responsible for that sections in the MDR) are clueless about all the guests seated at the table to be VIP's and to not mess things up, etc. 

 

Sometimes, reading all these reports and critiques, I stopped to wondered - what is going on, really, behind the scenes and below decks ... are the junior crew and even some of the ranking folks reacting and demonstrating their dissatisfactions, projecting their anger & hostile feelings and directing it at the passengers instead ??   I just don't have an answer for it, just sounding this out loud.  I much rather be proven wrong, but still afraid, that the worst days are still ahead, in a matter of months, maybe just weeks away from imploding - if some of the crew members are truly going to finish out their contract, go home and not come back and re-sign a new contract or extend one.  

 

One of the senior officer onboard told us that he was going to take his vacation and take a rest, but asked to stay on for another 2 months - which was agreed upon ...  Recruitment and retention of crew members and even junior officers could become a critical issues this summer and we are beginning to transition into the busiest time of the year, Easter is around the corner & before we know it, colleges will be out by mid/late May and then ... 

 

Again, to OP, thank you for taking the time to write, post and share ... and, I am surprised (slightly) to read that NCL now has around 300 with "Ambassador" status - before Covid shutdown, that number was down to under 50 only (it was hovering around 50 to 60 for a while) ... waves of double & triple point promo, and quad points being quite possible if suites and Havens were booked - not that difficult for fast track to hit Diamond & even Ambassdaor status on NCL.  However, the trends that we seemed to be reading about isn't all that encouraging as a whole, caution & flags being tossed almost every week - signaling the "general alarms" are being sounded - some are already considering heading to the muster stations to abandon ships to move to the competitors.  

 

These negative views aren't just showing up on CC but also all across other social media platforms, not just FB but other less frequented sites - even DW has begun to noticed and asking questions, as to what's happening lately.  Until lately, she felt that "some" of us had been too critical, nowadays, she isn't so sure anymore.  Alas, humor and go with the flow, the grass isn't necessary greener over the horizon ... but, we "shall" see, again and soon.