Suspicious Death on Carnival Sunshine

[cooncat_mom]

On 3/9/2023 at 11:56 AM, teknoge3k said:

 

I used to be a medic with the fire department many years ago. Of course protocols change over the years but back when I was a member, we could make the call then as well. If nothing was suspicious, we would have our dispatch notify the funeral home to come collect the body. If something looked suspicious, then we would have the police dispatched. 

True in my area too. Before I retired from EMS we made the call as well. Only a few of ours involved the police - otherwise, we called the funeral home and notified the patient’s doctor.

[BlerkOne]

No worries. The ambulance chaser is on it.

https://www.cruiselawnews.com/2023/03/articles/uncategorized/carnival-changes-its-story-suspicious-death-of-guest-on-carnival-sunshine-is-now-a-natural-death-as-fbi-is-required-to-obtain-search-warrant-to-inspect-cabin-no-6271-based-on-evidence-of-a/

 

It seems to me the FBI filed for the search warrants before the ship arrived back in the US. I would think that is SOP if there was any possibility of a crime.

[AFS1970]

I have heard from family in law enforcement that it is better to have a warrant even when there is consent to search. The cruise line can give consent for the cabin one it is no longer rented; I believe the husband would need to give consent for any belongings.

[ray98]

8 hours ago, AFS1970 said:

I have heard from family in law enforcement that it is better to have a warrant even when there is consent to search. The cruise line can give consent for the cabin one it is no longer rented; I believe the husband would need to give consent for any belongings.

Correct.....a search warrant is always the best choice.  As long as there are personal belongings in the cabin it would be a 4th amendment issue if a search was conducted based solely on consent from Carnival.

[PrincessArlena'sDad]

9 minutes ago, ray98 said:

Correct.....a search warrant is always the best choice.  As long as there are personal belongings in the cabin it would be a 4th amendment issue if a search was conducted based solely on consent from Carnival.

And, to get the search warrant, they need probable cause that a crime has been committed.  IMO, the fact that someone died, alone, is not enough to warrant probable cause.  At least it shouldn't be. Which (at least should) mean that there is evidence of foul play in addition to just the fact that someone died.

[ray98]

18 minutes ago, PrincessArlena'sDad said:

And, to get the search warrant, they need probable cause that a crime has been committed.  IMO, the fact that someone died, alone, is not enough to warrant probable cause.  At least it shouldn't be. Which (at least should) mean that there is evidence of foul play in addition to just the fact that someone died.

True, but probable cause is a fairly low standard.  Something as simple as an unexplained death of a younger adult combined with other factors which could be as simple as an argument between the two prior to the death can lead a judge to authorizing a search for evidence.  A search warrant will list objectively suspicious activities that a reasonable person could conclude indicates a crime took place.

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, ray98 said:

Correct.....a search warrant is always the best choice.  As long as there are personal belongings in the cabin it would be a 4th amendment issue if a search was conducted based solely on consent from Carnival.

For the FBI to search would require a warrant and reasonable cause, but for the ship's security to search for evidence, and then for that evidence to be admissible in a US court case, is a different matter.  Provided that the search, on foreign property (the ship), by foreign law enforcement (the Captain is the legal representative of the flag state, and can delegate responsibilities to subordinates), can be admissible in US courts, if the search met the requirements of the flag state.

 

You will see in several cruise lines' ticket contracts, that the passenger's cabin and belongings can be searched without the passenger's knowledge or consent.

[ProgRockCruiser]

On 3/10/2023 at 9:09 AM, Buckeyefrank100 said:

Except the man was likely in his 40s based on appearance and was seen on camera walking with another man in a field...  And wrapping up a dead person in carpet and plastic (even if that person didn't kill him) is a crime in itself.

You asked "Not sure how a dead person can wrap himself up in carpet, but OK."

 

I gave an explanation.  I didn't mean to imply that it meant no crime was committed.  The additional circumstances you note seem to point towards something nefarious.  I was simply positing that the person could have died naturally, as "the authorities" evidently decided in the case you mentioned, and the plastic and carpet were post-mortem actions.

 

Either "the authorities" are covering up an actual murder (or other death-inducing crime) or a second actor (possibly that other person in the field) took certain post-mortem actions that certainly require investigating.  I can think of a few things, but there's no value added to this thread in digging in.

[BlerkOne]

2 hours ago, ray98 said:

Correct.....a search warrant is always the best choice.  As long as there are personal belongings in the cabin it would be a 4th amendment issue if a search was conducted based solely on consent from Carnival.

I believe the car was also searched.

 

In any event, if there was a crime, it happened at sea, outside of the jurisdiction of the US and the Constitution. However, the FBI is authorized to investigate all crimes against US citizens, anywhere in the world. That Carnival pronounced the person deceased and initially said the death was suspicious is enough probable cause to obtain warrants.

 

[PrincessArlena'sDad]

1 minute ago, BlerkOne said:

I believe the car was also searched.

 

In any event, if there was a crime, it happened at sea, outside of the jurisdiction of the US and the Constitution. However, the FBI is authorized to investigate all crimes against US citizens, anywhere in the world. That Carnival pronounced the person deceased and initially said the death was suspicious is enough probable cause to obtain warrants.

 

Carnival saying "suspicious" is not enough.  The reason why they think it was suspicious MAY be enough, but it would be up to a judge to decide if the warrant was appropriate based upon the evidence presented.

[chengkp75]

10 minutes ago, BlerkOne said:

However, the FBI is authorized to investigate all crimes against US citizens, anywhere in the world.

Uh, no.  First off, the FBI will only conduct an investigation in another country when invited to by the host country.  Second, the jurisdiction in foreign countries only applies to terrorism acts, not homicides, robberies, or rapes.  The US has claimed extra-territorial jurisdiction over certain (not all) crimes committed against US citizens, while in international waters.

[BlerkOne]

4 minutes ago, PrincessArlena'sDad said:

Carnival saying "suspicious" is not enough.  The reason why they think it was suspicious MAY be enough, but it would be up to a judge to decide if the warrant was appropriate based upon the evidence presented.

In your opinion. But as you say, all it takes is a judge and an warrant application to obtain said warrant. I doubt Carnival had a representative in front of a judge. Hearsay is good enough.

 

I believe the Bahamas also has jurisdiction

[BlerkOne]

2 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Uh, no.  First off, the FBI will only conduct an investigation in another country when invited to by the host country.  Second, the jurisdiction in foreign countries only applies to terrorism acts, not homicides, robberies, or rapes.  The US has claimed extra-territorial jurisdiction over certain (not all) crimes committed against US citizens, while in international waters.

Okay, but the FBI didn't search the cabin before it was under US jurisdiction and the car certainly was.

 

The FBI can certainly investigate homicides, robberies, and rapes of US citizens on cruise ships. As the Bahamas performed the first autopsy, homicide could not have been ruled out. Do we know that the Bahamas did not request FBI assistance?

[chengkp75]

9 minutes ago, BlerkOne said:

The FBI can certainly investigate homicides, robberies, and rapes of US citizens on cruise ships. As the Bahamas performed the first autopsy, homicide could not have been ruled out. Do we know that the Bahamas did not request FBI assistance?

Again, it would depend on where the incident happened, whether in international waters or in the waters of some other country.  And, the FBI can only investigate the crimes you mention, if they occurred in international waters.  If it happens in the territorial waters of another country, the FBI is then limited to only investigating if invited by the local law enforcement agency, or the flag state.

[BlerkOne]

1 minute ago, chengkp75 said:

Again, it would depend on where the incident happened, whether in international waters or in the waters of some other country.  And, the FBI can only investigate the crimes you mention, if they occurred in international waters.  If it happens in the territorial waters of another country, the FBI is then limited to only investigating if invited by the local law enforcement agency, or the flag state.

Which would be the Bahamas

[chengkp75]

6 minutes ago, BlerkOne said:

Which would be the Bahamas

I have not followed this closely enough to know if an autopsy has been performed or not, by the Bahamas.  They operate under the British model, where the Coroner may decide to hold an inquest without requiring an autopsy.  So, no we don't know if the Bahamas invited the FBI or not, nor do we know much of the investigation or autopsy.  And, as I said, if the act happened in Bahamian waters, then the US cannot investigate, whether invited or not, unless they feel it is terrorism related.

Edited March 13, 2023 by chengkp75

[BlerkOne]

13 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

I have not followed this closely enough to know if an autopsy has been performed or not, by the Bahamas.  They operate under the British model, where the Coroner may decide to hold an inquest without requiring an autopsy.  So, no we don't know if the Bahamas invited the FBI or not, nor do we know much of the investigation or autopsy.  And, as I said, if the act happened in Bahamian waters, then the US cannot investigate, whether invited or not, unless they feel it is terrorism related.

Yes, we know the Bahamas performed an autopsy and a second one was to be performed in the US.

[PrincessArlena'sDad]

6 minutes ago, BlerkOne said:

Yes, we know the Bahamas performed an autopsy and a second one was to be performed in the US.

Do you know if the results of the autopsy have been made public?

[BlerkOne]

6 minutes ago, PrincessArlena'sDad said:

Do you know if the results of the autopsy have been made public?

No

[sanger727]

3 hours ago, ray98 said:

Correct.....a search warrant is always the best choice.  As long as there are personal belongings in the cabin it would be a 4th amendment issue if a search was conducted based solely on consent from Carnival.

 

I've been in law enforcement for 16 years. I have never once needed a search warrant to investigate a "natural death". If the death is natural, the person's cabin mate would have no reason to not let the FBI in to search. Once a person is dead, they don't have 4th amendment rights anymore. 

[EngIceDave]

The suspicious death is probable cause anyway

[ray98]

25 minutes ago, sanger727 said:

 

I've been in law enforcement for 16 years. I have never once needed a search warrant to investigate a "natural death". If the death is natural, the person's cabin mate would have no reason to not let the FBI in to search. Once a person is dead, they don't have 4th amendment rights anymore. 

No one has ruled this a 'natural death'.  Second, the decedent's husband is no longer on the ship as he disembarked in the Bahamas so he is no longer in a position to give consent.  Finally, the deceased may no longer have 4th Amendment rights but the spouse certainly does.

[sanger727]

3 minutes ago, ray98 said:

No one has ruled this a 'natural death'.  Second, the decedent's husband is no longer on the ship as he disembarked in the Bahamas so he is no longer in a position to give consent.  Finally, the deceased may no longer have 4th Amendment rights but the spouse certainly does.

 

Why couldn't he give consent? There is such a thing as video chatting and electronic signatures. All I'm pointing out is the Carnival is the one calling this a natural death, and that does not jive with the FBI getting search warrants. 

[ray98]

7 minutes ago, sanger727 said:

 

Why couldn't he give consent? There is such a thing as video chatting and electronic signatures. All I'm pointing out is the Carnival is the one calling this a natural death, and that does not jive with the FBI getting search warrants. 

Well at least in the great state of GA for a consent search to be valid is must be voluntary, uncoerced and able to be revoked at any time.  A video chat checking those boxes is likely to be a point of contention in court down the road if that is the route it goes.  It would be much easier to just obtain the warrant.

[sanger727]

1 hour ago, ray98 said:

Well at least in the great state of GA for a consent search to be valid is must be voluntary, uncoerced and able to be revoked at any time.  A video chat checking those boxes is likely to be a point of contention in court down the road if that is the route it goes.  It would be much easier to just obtain the warrant.

 

A video chat can be all of those things. And no, it's much more difficult to obtain a warrant, especially if there is no suspected crime. Again, if this is a "natural" death as Carnival is claiming, consent is never an issue. No one has anything to hide. The loved one wants this to move forward quickly.