Dogs on the ship

[dd57]

Thank you, Chief, for reminding us about the rights of the disabled.  Just like people who "appear" to not need a handicapped parking space, you can't always know who has a disability.  We have a friend who is a veteran and diabetic.  He received a trained diabetes alert dog from the VA.  The dog was small, some kind of Jack Russel terrier mix. The dog's main task was to wake up our friend if he had an issue while he was asleep.  The dog was trained to be up on the bed while he slept.  He was trained to sit on the coach next to our friend.  The dog saved our friend several times, including during the day.

 

On the other hand, we know some people who bought a service vest for their pet so they could take it on hikes in California State Parks in areas where dogs are not allowed due to protected wildlife.  People like that make life hard for the disabled, just like anyone who lies and brings their pet onboard.

 

I, too, have allergies that can cause severe reactions - such as from people using dryer sheets - so I sympathisize with people with pet allergies.  Anyone with concerns should bring it to the attention of Viking.

 

This is a difficult situation.  And probably not limited to Viking.

Edited April 1, 2023 by dd57

[KBs mum]

Allthough there is no requirement for a service animal to have a vest under ADA, it seems sensible that the dog have a sleeve on the leash, collar or a vest to indicate that it is working and shouldn't be petted and so that staff in the premises don't have to ask before allowing admittance. Staff can also discreetly keep an eye out in case the person needs any extra accommodations. 

Other customers then know not to try and pet the dog or distract it. There doesn't need to be an indication of what the medical condition is, unless the person wants there to be. 

 

[photopro2]

11 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Per the ADA, there is no required documentation for a service animal, and it is illegal to ask for it.

I very much respect your knowledgeable contributions and would appreciate it if you could put what you say in this quote within the context of Viking's statement that "Guests who request a service animal must provide appropriate documentation to support the request." Are you saying that it would be illegal for Viking to require "appropriate documentation" as they suggest?

[chengkp75]

26 minutes ago, photopro2 said:

I very much respect your knowledgeable contributions and would appreciate it if you could put what you say in this quote within the context of Viking's statement that "Guests who request a service animal must provide appropriate documentation to support the request." Are you saying that it would be illegal for Viking to require "appropriate documentation" as they suggest?

With regards to documentation that the dog is a service animal, yes, it would be illegal.  They can request an "attestation" by the owner that the dog is a service animal, and describing the "work or tasks" that the dog performs for the owner's benefit.  If you look at the Viking FAQ that curlerrob posted a few posts after Viking's response, you will see that the mention of documentation is for entry into the countries visited. It also mentions the "Service Animal Request Form", which may be the "documentation" that is required.

Edited April 1, 2023 by chengkp75

[Twitchly]

54 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

With regards to documentation that the dog is a service animal, yes, it would be illegal.  They can request an "attestation" by the owner that the dog is a service animal, and describing the "work or tasks" that the dog performs for the owner's benefit.  If you look at the Viking FAQ that curlerrob posted a few posts after Viking's response, you will see that the mention of documentation is for entry into the countries visited. It also mentions the "Service Animal Request Form", which may be the "documentation" that is required.

So basically it’s all based on the honor system. If I say Pookie-Ookums is a service dog, Viking has to accept that she is. 

[jasardeax]

Thank you Chief. 
With your background of 

previously being an officer in charge of ADA compliance, you have been a great source of reasoned and accurate information on this subject. 
Your comments have been greatly appreciated. 

[TayanaLorna]

12 hours ago, Peregrina651 said:

 

Not over the PA, but complaints could be replied to with a simple phrase, "We are aware that there are service animals aboard the ship at this time and we will talk with the owners about their behavior"  -- and then actually go have that conversation, with all owners who are aboard at the time. This also means that the cruise line needs to spell out in advance any restrictions on behavior -- such as sitting on the furniture, being feed from the table, etc.

Chengkp75 suggested a Service Animal Code of Conduct be established by cruise lines which would outline proper and expected behavior.  If the code was public, we could all know it and see whether or not the dog exhibits the proper conduct and the handler enforces it.

[photopro2]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

It also mentions the "Service Animal Request Form", which may be the "documentation" that is required.

That makes sense. Thank you for the prompt clarification.

 

9 minutes ago, Twitchly said:

So basically it’s all based on the honor system. If I say Pookie-Ookums is a service dog, Viking has to accept that she is. 

Sadly I fear you might be correct and it seems there is little that can be done to sanction those who choose to abuse the system. The only hope we have is that Viking will very strictly enforce restrictions that would be reasonable for a genuine service animal, such as keeping them off furniture and banning them from being fed in restaurants.

[photopro2]

I really appreciate you stepping in to provide some definitive information on what is obviously a sensitive and contentious issue.

17 hours ago, Viking Cruises said:

We have updated our policies accordingly to ensure such incidents do not happen in the future.

Might I ask if these policies are publicly available and if so where they might be found?

[TayanaLorna]

3 hours ago, KBs mum said:

Allthough there is no requirement for a service animal to have a vest under ADA, it seems sensible that the dog have a sleeve on the leash, collar or a vest to indicate that it is working and shouldn't be petted and so that staff in the premises don't have to ask before allowing admittance. Staff can also discreetly keep an eye out in case the person needs any extra accommodations. 

Other customers then know not to try and pet the dog or distract it. There doesn't need to be an indication of what the medical condition is, unless the person wants there to be. 

 

It does seem that Viking could make some notification to passengers that service animals are on board without disclosing a particular disability or shaming the guests with service dogs.  Many people do not know that they should not attempt to pet or otherwise engage a service dog.  There are many people who love dogs and miss their pets when traveling.  A simple announcement in the first Viking Daily could read - we are delighted to welcome 2 service dogs on this cruise - please know that they are working dogs - although their owners may welcome questions and discussion from interested people about their dog, please do not attempt to pet the animals or distract them from the task they are trained to perform.  That way other guests won't be suprised to see them on board and they will know how to react to the dogs.  Or am i totally off base here.

[tobique33040]

If people don’t have to show proof that animals are trained service animal, conceivably everyone who wants to bring their pet is allowed. No proof required. Ok, so that’s upsetting. I understand that people have disabilities but most people with severe diabetes manage to live without a service animal ( personal experience). And cruise anyway. This is a sticky wicket. 😬

[Jim Avery]

Sadly, following how most things go in the New World Order, this thread, in a matter of days, has gone from full blown outrage to well I guess there's nothing we can do.  Those people have "rights" and we should feel sorry for them.  They are victims of their disability.  

No they are not.  The ones in this discussion, and the ones likely to come later are idiots bringing their pets along for the ride and you and me better get over it.

[KBs mum]

2 minutes ago, TayanaLorna said:

It does seem that Viking could make some notification to passengers that service animals are on board without disclosing a particular disability or shaming the guests with service dogs.  Many people do not know that they should not attempt to pet or otherwise engage a service dog.  There are many people who love dogs and miss their pets when traveling.  A simple announcement in the first Viking Daily could read - we are delighted to welcome 2 service dogs on this cruise - please know that they are working dogs - although their owners may welcome questions and discussion from interested people about their dog, please do not attempt to pet the animals or distract them from the task they are trained to perform.  That way other guests won't be suprised to see them on board and they will know how to react to the dogs.  Or am i totally off base here.

Seems reasonable to me, could be combined with a 'code of conduct' for service animals that owners have to sign and return. Genuine service dogs would have no problem complying with behavior requirements.

 

If a dog needs to be on furniture for a valid reason, as per the examples given about  diabetes, a set of linen in a different colour to usual could be provided, including a couple of towels for the dog to sit on on furniture, to accommodate any allergy sufferers and muddy paws. (as per previous threads, could also be used for human feet on chairs? 😁) 

We stay at a dog friendly hotel that does similar, works well. Might not be ADA compliant, but likely most would comply if requested

[tobique33040]

As mentioned previously, is this only for ship departing from US. I know from family members taking pets to live in Europe it is complicated to get permission to enter. So people flying to Europe to depart on a cruise, must they nowadays get permission or can they say they must take the animal. What do people with genuine service animals do flying overseas? 

[Sunshine Bob]

This is not just a cruise issue , its a society issue - I was in Las Vegas at the end of last year and was gobsmacked by the number of dogs in casinos.

 

If you give an inch you must expect the public to take a mile......

[tobique33040]

I understand that it was conjecture about the departure from US ports mainly but it seems reasonable. So if anyone know if the rules are different for overseas please respond. Thank very much. 

[Level six]

3 minutes ago, Sunshine Bob said:

This is not just a cruise issue , its a society issue - I was in Las Vegas at the end of last year and was gobsmacked by the number of dogs in casinos.

 

If you give an inch you must expect the public to take a mile......

We just returned from Vegas two days ago, and I agree.  I have never seen so many dogs in casinos! It was like a dog convention.  People will take advantage of this "not having to prove" and soon there will be that many dogs on cruises in the future.  

[tobique33040]

I’ve done a bit of quick research. Appears that Silversea does not allow animals, service or otherwise. And many of the requirements by other lines go against what one poster said were illegal. Perhaps because they are vessels registered under a foreign flag, they are not required under our laws to allow animals. So cruising is a choice, while flying somewhere may be a necessity. It seems rational that some things would not be subject to the laws, otherwise how can Silversea discriminate against people wanting to bring their animals. Maybe Heidi 13, who always has excellent information, can assist on this question. 

[Hobson1754]

39 minutes ago, tobique33040 said:

I understand that it was conjecture about the departure from US ports mainly but it seems reasonable. So if anyone know if the rules are different for overseas please respond. Thank very much. 

I’ve had a look around in relation to rules re cruises going from and around Europe but can’t seem to find much apart from the previous poster who forwarded us to P&O’s rules.  seems it’s more about individual cruise lines policy. I have found this in relation to bringing pets into UK

You can enter or return to Great Britain with your pet cat, dog or ferret if it: has been microchipped. has a pet passport or health certificate. has been vaccinated against rabies - it will also need a blood test if you're travelling from an country that is not 'listed'

 

I too think it’s more to do with cruises departing from US and think that it’s maybe put the nail in the coffin for our plans to do Panama Canal - FL To LA for Christmas 2024 😤

[tobique33040]

Btw we have five dogs and a cat in our family so I’m not immune to the charms of animals. 

[KBs mum]

49 minutes ago, tobique33040 said:

As mentioned previously, is this only for ship departing from US. I know from family members taking pets to live in Europe it is complicated to get permission to enter. So people flying to Europe to depart on a cruise, must they nowadays get permission or can they say they must take the animal. What do people with genuine service animals do flying overseas? 

I don't know the details, but for dogs in general the UK requirements are based around vaccinations, rabies checks and a 'pet passport'. Service dogs shouldn't have much of a problem meeting these. 

Once at destination then local admittance rules apply, service animals are allowed everywhere but emotional support not. (there are some convoluted rules around things like escalators that are unsafe for dogs in general) 

Another question is being allowed into the airport to fly back, non service dogs would likely have to go in the hold for a fee as cargo. 

Edited April 1, 2023 by KBs mum

[Vineyard View]

23 hours ago, Peregrina651 said:

 

Viking has a long history of not responding collectively or publicly  to any of these issues. The only way that we will know that our concerns have been heard is when we stop seeing animals aboard the ships -- or when someone complains on social media that they were refused boarding because they failed to inform the cruise line in advance or were told that they could not bring the animal when they did fill out the proper forms.

I am not disagreeing that they have a long history with non response, but if Viking does not formally make the rules clear on pet policy then this will continue. Because of that I will argue that it’s time that Viking steps up on this topic publicly. If the only way passengers know if something was done is when we stop seeing animals on board, then what stops the current situation from continuing? Not a thing. And if people only find out when they were refused boarding, they can then claim president has been set as dogs have been allowed on board in the past. JMHO

[KBs mum]

8 minutes ago, tobique33040 said:

I’ve done a bit of quick research. Appears that Silversea does not allow animals, service or otherwise. And many of the requirements by other lines go against what one poster said were illegal. Perhaps because they are vessels registered under a foreign flag, they are not required under our laws to allow animals. So cruising is a choice, while flying somewhere may be a necessity. It seems rational that some things would not be subject to the laws, otherwise how can Silversea discriminate against people wanting to bring their animals. Maybe Heidi 13, who always has excellent information, can assist on this question. 

If flag state matters then anybody know what Norwegian law is? Viking would be applying ADA voluntarily. 

Not perhaps dog debate relevant, but the disabled bathrooms on Viking meet ADA but don't meet UK regulations. I know that when abroad disability arrangements may not be as good or be different to at home. It's another case where research is key, If accommodation not suitable for the individual then book something else. If laws in another country are not compatible with a dog, then the only option is to make other plans, same as I have to if wheelchair access laws arn't good

[TayanaLorna]

1 hour ago, Level six said:

We just returned from Vegas two days ago, and I agree.  I have never seen so many dogs in casinos! It was like a dog convention.  People will take advantage of this "not having to prove" and soon there will be that many dogs on cruises in the future.  

Yes our new culture of trying to get away with whatever you can.

[CurlerRob]

1 hour ago, photopro2 said:

I really appreciate you stepping in to provide some definitive information on what is obviously a sensitive and contentious issue.

Might I ask if these policies are publicly available and if so where they might be found?

 

What Viking published on this thread was essentially their new FAQ description of the policy. You are likely best to review the FAQs published on the UK site, as there are sometimes differences. The other published information can be found on your Viking site under the pax contract details. This information was updated Friday, as Viking posted on this thread.

 

FWIW, here is the new FAQ and the paragraph from the ticket contract as applicable in the US and Canada: 🍺🥌

 

Are service animals allowed on board?

In accordance with the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) and similar laws in destinations where we operate, Viking allows service animals. Guests who request a service animal must provide appropriate documentation to support the request. Requests for pets or emotional support animals are denied, as per our policy. All service animals are reviewed according to ADA or applicable regulations, and only service animals that have the appropriate documentation for admittance into the countries on an itinerary are permitted on board our ships. We are aware of isolated instances of improper behavior from service animals in public areas on board our ships. We have updated our policies accordingly to ensure such incidents do not happen in the future.

 

18. ANIMALS. No pets or other animals are allowed on board the Ship except for certain necessary service animals of a Passenger with a disability, which require written notification to the Carrier or our agent at the time of booking your cruise and our written approval. Service animals accepted for boarding are any guide dog, signal dog, or other animal individually trained to work or perform tasks for an individual with a disability. Emotional support animals are not service animals. Local laws in the Galapagos restrict bringing an animal ashore. You agree to accept responsibility, reimburse and/or indemnify Carrier for any loss, or damage related to the presence of any service animal brought on the cruise. You further agree to determine and meet any documentary or other requirements related to the service animal.