HAL's Lifeboats

[Haljo1935]

Thank you @Copper10-8 for the great pictures - very interesting to see.

And thanks @Despegue and @chengkp75 for additional insights. This is all very interesting to see and comforting to hear the details of training involved. Never doubted it was done, just comforting to have it validated.

[OlsSalt]

Sobering reminders we passengers need to take the required embarkation safety drill much more seriously, rather than thinking it is merely an annoying inconvenience. 

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, Mary229 said:

@CruiserBruce @chengkp75  yes, I understand that it is in a fire building but do you know which room of the ship they are attempting to simulate 

Yes, that looks like an "engineering" space, but some places have a couple of hot rooms, with various configurations, like a crew cabin (most of this training is for cargo ship crews).

[JRG]

59 minutes ago, OlsSalt said:

Sobering reminders we passengers need to take the required embarkation safety drill much more seriously, rather than thinking it is merely an annoying inconvenience. 

 

I agree that this section highlighted in red is a common statement here on cc,  but that does not mean that it accurately describes the population of other cruisers not present and accounted for here.

 

Repeating passengers,  which alone will always account for a large share of passengers on most cruises most likely do not consider it an annoyance,  they just don't over sensationalize it on the internet or on board.

 

New Passengers who are of average intelligence understand this is not just an annoyance and most new passengers laugh and chuckle,  sure,  but they get it.

 

In my 25 plus cruises,  I have never believed this red-lined sentiment to be true but it is commonly projected to be the battle cry for various reasons.  

 

I am most curious about the description of having to sit PAX to PAX in a certain way as described in a previous post once PAX's are in the lifeboat and I am wondering how the HAL PAX's are going to do this and still be able to play Trivia on the lifeboat!  

 

The PAX's who perished on the fire off of the coast of Santa Barbara did not have a chance to apply their safety drill instructions because they were sleeping in their cabins and the crewman who was responsible for nightwatch did not stay alert.   We've sailed on those Channel Island Island Packers vessels a few times but we've never done the overnight charter for divers.   This was a tragedy caused by human error and not training,  so each emergency is different.  Sometimes it is out of your hands altogether.

 

Edited July 9, 2023 by JRG

[Heidi13]

7 hours ago, Copper10-8 said:

What it looks like inside a HAL life raft btw, is to which the vast majority of the crew are assigned to (pics taken during crew drills, of which there are many, usually at the rear part of a fire/general emergency drill). The rafts are stored inside cannisters/containers. The life rafts are released or launched into the water by three different methods:

 

1. Launching via ship's Davits (the raft is inflated while attached to/ hanging from a davit along the boat deck so the assigned crew can board)

2. Manually launching (the container holding the raft is launched overboard - the painter line is pulled which will fire a gas bottle to inflate the raft - takes 20-30 seconds to inflate fully

3. Auto release with hydrostatic release unit (HRU) - during emergencies, the life raft inflates itself automatically as soon as it comes in contact with seawater

 

Crew/officers will attend a basic safety course prior to their 1st contract (also includes first aid/CPR, general water safety and firefighting onboard a ship) Mine took place in Seattle, WA. The course has to be satisfactory retaken every four-five years while employed

 

 

To clarify, the inflation time is highly dependent on the ambient temperature and while many rafts can be inflated within 30 seconds, they must be fully inflated within 60 seconds. We conducted most of our in water tests in the winter months, so they were routinely 30 - 45 seconds.

 

With respect to HRU systems for non-MES rafts, the HRU is attached to the cradle securing strap. If the ship sinks, at a pre-determined depth, the HRU cuts the retaining strap, releasing the liferaft, which is still attached to the ship by the painter.

 

The inherent buoyancy brings the liferat up towards the surface and when the painter is fully extended it pulls the firing pins from the CO2/Nitrogen bottles, which initiates inflation. The "weak link" in the painter parts and the liferaft surfaces. The liferafts do automatically inflate, but immediately upon coming into contact with seawater.

 

Liferafts included in an MES system have other methods of launching, which vary by manufacturer, but all have a failsafe system with HRU's. 

[JRG]

Realisticaly speaking,  the OP's question should be taken seriously but I have confidence that there are professionals who are working in the marine and cruise industry Research and Development to constantly evaluate safety procedures and protocols,  but just as importantly,   evaluate the emerging technologies that can improve existing practices and determine their 'seaworthiness'

 

 

[JRG]

Here is a link to the US Coast Guard's publication on the matter with some more specs.

 

U (uscg.mil)

 

If the link doesn't work just go to the US Coast Guard Center for Expertise website.  This is a helpful website because it provides alot of information about lifeboats in general and other things we discuss on CC,

 

I'm curious if the Foreign Flagged vessels who operate lifeboat crafts will have to retro-fit the engines of their lifeboat crafts when in California waters per state emissions control regulatory compliance.

CARB  is asking alot of small harbor craft and there has been alot of pushback and compliance extensions made for the local craft operators.  I'm talking about the Tier 1 thur Tier 4 engines and the particulate matter they discharge.  Admittedly I don't know the classification of these engines.

Just curious more than anything else.

 

 

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, JRG said:

Realisticaly speaking,  the OP's question should be taken seriously but I have confidence that there are professionals who are working in the marine and cruise industry Research and Development to constantly evaluate safety procedures and protocols,  but just as importantly,   evaluate the emerging technologies that can improve existing practices and determine their 'seaworthiness'

 

 

So tell me, what "emerging" technology affects how a boat can hold a given volume or weight of people?  Or is the technology in the area of limiting passenger weight?

[chengkp75]

43 minutes ago, JRG said:

Here is a link to the US Coast Guard's publication on the matter with some more specs.

 

U (uscg.mil)

 

If the link doesn't work just go to the US Coast Guard Center for Expertise website.  This is a helpful website because it provides alot of information about lifeboats in general and other things we discuss on CC,

 

I'm curious if the Foreign Flagged vessels who operate lifeboat crafts will have to retro-fit the engines of their lifeboat crafts when in California waters per state emissions control regulatory compliance.

CARB  is asking alot of small harbor craft and there has been alot of pushback and compliance extensions made for the local craft operators.  I'm talking about the Tier 1 thur Tier 4 engines and the particulate matter they discharge.  Admittedly I don't know the classification of these engines.

Just curious more than anything else.

 

 

Which really doesn't apply to the OP's question, which was about lifeboats, not ship's lifeboats that are used for tendering or excursions.

 

From a quick look at CARB regulations recently, it appears that most of the problems you talk about are for "spark ignition" engines, or gasoline engines as used on most recreational craft.  Didn't look into those regs, as they don't apply to commercial vessels.  What I did see about diesel engines (those used in lifeboats), mentioned specific types of craft, but no mention of lifeboats.  There is also an exemption for "low use" engines (less than 300 hours/year) where the lifeboat engines would fit, but likely not the tender boats.

[Son of a son of a ...]

Purely curious and largely towards Andy and Chief.  If lifeboat (the rigid, enclosed structure kind that carry our arses tendering) capacity is less than 100% of souls on board, some portion - likely crew, but maybe some passengers if the ship is listing and can’t use the “lifeboats” - must use the alternatives.  The alternatives are inflatable rafts of some sort.  What is the survivability on those alternatives in cold weather?  I recall reading on the boards that sailors need to plan on help being hours, if not days, away from rescue.   Just thinking of the cold weather cruises … but maybe they are so close to shore that rescue would be fast … I don’t know.  Thanks!

[chengkp75]

Just now, Son of a son of a ... said:

Purely curious and largely towards Andy and Chief.  If lifeboat (the rigid, enclosed structure kind that carry our arses tendering) capacity is less than 100% of souls on board, some portion - likely crew, but maybe some passengers if the ship is listing and can’t use the “lifeboats” - must use the alternatives.  The alternatives are inflatable rafts of some sort.  What is the survivability on those alternatives in cold weather?  I recall reading on the boards that sailors need to plan on help being hours, if not days, away from rescue.   Just thinking of the cold weather cruises … but maybe they are so close to shore that rescue would be fast … I don’t know.  Thanks!

On today's cruise ships, the lifeboat capacity is somewhere above the "nominal" passenger capacity (double occupancy).  So, when ships sail very full, some pax will be assigned to rafts, and all crew, with the exception of the 3 assigned to each lifeboat as crew, will use rafts.

 

For cold weather, the rafts have an inflatable floor to provide some insulation.  But, just like in the lifeboats, "huddling" is the best defense against the cold.  If you are wet, that makes it very much more difficult to maintain body temperature, which is why it is not recommended to jump into the water in the hope of getting into a boat/raft, unless there is no other alternative.  The davit launched rafts load the crew at the boat deck, and they ride down in the raft just like in a lifeboat.  The MES (evacuation chute) type of rafts drop you into one of a nest of rafts, and you transfer dry there as well.

 

From my own personal experience, which included 4 hours in a liferaft at sea offshore Halifax in March, with a 6 foot swell running, the raft is no less survivable than the boat, but it is far less comfortable.

 

As for cold weather cruises, read up on the Prinsendam rescue here:

 

https://www.mycg.uscg.mil/News/Article/3009282/the-long-blue-line-prinsendamcoast-guards-miracle-rescue-over-40-years-ago/

 

Note that it took the USCG nearly 8 hours before the first rescue helicopter got to the scene, and it took 10 hours to get everyone out of the boats, and if not for the fortuitous proximity of the tanker Williamsburgh, where the rescued were staged, it would have taken many hours longer.

[JRG]

2 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

So tell me, what "emerging" technology affects how a boat can hold a given volume or weight of people?  Or is the technology in the area of limiting passenger weight?

 

PAX Passport record weight and height information can be assimilated in various ways during the pre-boarding timeframe, and with the right software and technology a ship cold identify inequitable weight distributions or space issues due to handicaps, for example..   It would be useful to distribute based on all relevant data in situations where a more favorable weight balance would exist in each lifeboat,  with all the same considerations for logistics,  of course.   For example,  the lineman for the Kansas City Chiefs are traveling together and the Sisters of Mercy are doing the same, big weight and space difference,  but hopefully,  you see the point, if all of the lineman got into one lifeboat, with their Mae West.

 

A better example of R&D marine industry research is the encroaching automation of cargo handling in the ports.  Global commerce needs advancement in port automation to accommodate future loads and that is why R&D exists in that particular segment of the marine industry.  Somebody just funded 1.5 billion dollars in California marine interests and I'm willing to bet  improving port automation thru technology will eat a big part of that turkey pot pie.

 

For Cruising, other advancements in technology will make it possible to do things that right now we can't because it is just not practical right now given the technology.   

 

I've said it before,  you have to be able to is see the forest from the trees,  and sometimes you fly at 40k feet as an analyst to understand how process works.   Its not difficult for those of us who can when you apply basic deductive reasoning along with the other natural and physical sciences AND you stay current with what is happening in the various segments that you are interested in.  

 

I say have a 'Journey' moment and "Don't Stop Believing.'  rather than "Anyway you Want it, That's the Way you need it Anyway you want it"   

Edited July 9, 2023 by JRG

[Son of a son of a ...]

Damn, Chief, that article was enlightening … I now appreciate your adamance about the importance of in-person lifeboat drills.  Thank goodness for the Coasties.

[HamOp]

47 minutes ago, Son of a son of a ... said:

Damn, Chief, that article was enlightening … I now appreciate your adamance about the importance of in-person lifeboat drills.  Thank goodness for the Coasties.

From a former Coastie, thank you!!

[chengkp75]

2 hours ago, JRG said:

PAX Passport record weight and height information can be assimilated in various ways during the pre-boarding timeframe, and with the right software and technology a ship cold identify inequitable weight distributions or space issues due to handicaps, for example..   It would be useful to distribute based on all relevant data in situations where a more favorable weight balance would exist in each lifeboat,  with all the same considerations for logistics,  of course.

So, what you are proposing is that every cruise, the muster station for each and every cabin is reallocated to a different lifeboat based on weight and height?  How do you reconcile this with the required placard on the cabin door, that would have to be changed every cruise?  And, what happens if the total weight of pax and crew exceeds the rated weight limit of all lifesaving appliances?  Do you kick someone off the ship at the last moment "sorry, we're over our weight limit"?  And, what about passengers that don't use a passport?

[JennysUncle]

3 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

 

 

As for cold weather cruises, read up on the Prinsendam rescue here:

 

This book goes into more detail 

https://www.amazon.com/Burning-Cold-Cruise-Prinsendam-Greatest/dp/0760320799

 

[OlsSalt]

8 hours ago, JRG said:

 

...........

 

The PAX's who perished on the fire off of the coast of Santa Barbara did not have a chance to apply their safety drill instructions because they were sleeping in their cabins and the crewman who was responsible for nightwatch did not stay alert.   We've sailed on those Channel Island Island Packers vessels a few times but we've never done the overnight charter for divers.   This was a tragedy caused by human error and not training,  so each emergency is different.  Sometimes it is out of your hands altogether.

 

 

The most plausible explanation for the Santa Barbara Dive Boat fire was over-loaded circuits and/or exploding lithium battery packs - was not up to handling all the charging equipment now brought on board.

 

It also sounded like it was such a flash fire, there was little that could have been done even if someone was on active duty watch. A truly tragic event. A horrific tragedy all around.

 

Made me realize when the stewards unplug items getting charged while we are gone, that is very much the right thing to do.  Now I worry about any lithium battery packs at home while we are gone on a cruise, which I had never given consideration to before either. 

[JRG]

9 minutes ago, OlsSalt said:

The most plausible explanation for the Santa Barbara Dive Boat fire was over-loaded circuits and/or exploding lithium battery packs - was not up to handling all the charging equipment now brought on board.

 

I should mention that I don't think it was actually Island Packers but maybe another outfit that quickly filed for bankruptcy after the fire,  If I remember correctly.   

 

 

[Heidi13]

6 hours ago, Son of a son of a ... said:

Purely curious and largely towards Andy and Chief.  If lifeboat (the rigid, enclosed structure kind that carry our arses tendering) capacity is less than 100% of souls on board, some portion - likely crew, but maybe some passengers if the ship is listing and can’t use the “lifeboats” - must use the alternatives.  The alternatives are inflatable rafts of some sort.  What is the survivability on those alternatives in cold weather?  I recall reading on the boards that sailors need to plan on help being hours, if not days, away from rescue.   Just thinking of the cold weather cruises … but maybe they are so close to shore that rescue would be fast … I don’t know.  Thanks!

 

I concur with the Chief's response. All liferafts have an inflatable floor to provide some level of insulation. From experience, when the raft is closed up it becomes rather hot and humid on the inside. The movement in any type of seaway/swell can be very uncomfortable.

 

My first survival course was held in a public pool with kids playing in the shallow end and us using the deep end. Getting into the raft from the water unassisted was a challenge even as a fit teenage cadet. At 60+ now, getting into a raft from the water would require assistance. Just another reason why going into the water is not preferable. Once everyone was inside and the flap secured, it warmed up quickly and even the ripples in the pool made it very uncomfortable. That was a 25-person raft and it was crowded with 25 sitting around the edge leaning on the buoyancy chambers.

 

I was also required to prove to Flag State we could launch a 25 DL (davit launched) raft and tow it in a seaway. In about 30 - 35 kt winds, we lowered the 25 DL, loaded with weight replicating 25 souls. During the descent (about 60') a gust of wind caught the bottom of the raft and lifted it to about 45 degrees. Once in the water, we towed it easily about 3 miles back to shore without issue. Since we used a practice raft, I couldn't put anyone in the raft for the towing, so missed out on that opportunity.

 

Personally, I prefer the MES (Marine Evacuation Systems) with shutes/slides into large capacity rafts of 100 - 150 persons. I have sailed with all MES systems except the Viking MES, which I only observed at their Danish factory. Have completed timed evacuation trials on all systems except the Viking and I found them easy to use and the large capacity rafts, a little more spacious that the 25 DL rafts. Only been in the rafts and towed them in a harbour environment, but the motion inside the larger rafts was definitely different (better) to the motion of a 25-person raft in a pool. However, I have watched the film of the RFD Marin Ark type approval trials off Aberdeen in 30+ kt winds and 3.0 m sig wave height and it certainly would be an interesting ride.

 

Even in current times, on an ocean passage, rescue can be many days. Back in the 1970's when I first went to sea, prior to Sat Nav/GPS, our position finding was sun sights and star sights. On a really good day, with sun sights you could get within a mile. With hazy days, cloud at the horizon, ship moving, the error could easily be up to 10 miles. After multiple days with no sun or stars, our position was by dead reckoning, which was a factor of course and speed. It didn't take into account wind and current. An Estimated Position, was a somewhat educated guess based on thoughts of what the wind and current was doing to the ship. After a number of days without sights, we could easily be 30 miles from where we thought we were. Therefore, in the event of an incident, the accuracy of the position transmitted by the Sparky, may not have been overly accurate. These days the GMDSS station will automatically use the current GPS position.

 

 

[OlsSalt]

3 hours ago, JRG said:

 

I should mention that I don't think it was actually Island Packers but maybe another outfit that quickly filed for bankruptcy after the fire,  If I remember correctly.   

 

 

 

It was Truth Aquatic's boat the Conception - some of these boats dock  at the same Sea Landing, where the HAL tenders come into Santa Barbara. Those lost are honored and remembered by this town. The entire town was in shock.

[JRG]

41 minutes ago, OlsSalt said:

It was Truth Aquatic's boat the Conception - some of these boats dock  at the same Sea Landing, where the HAL tenders come into Santa Barbara. Those lost are honored and remembered by this town. The entire town was in shock.

 

Then we should remember them always.  

 

Our timeshare sits next to the Ventura Harbor Patrol Station at Ventura Marina and we have view of the Channel Islands from our veranda,  which faces the Ventura Harbor entrance.

 

We missed this memorial when we were walking and lunching on State Street a few weeks ago,  but I saw another memorial where Santa Barbara was honoring a Cal Fire Escondido Resident who lost his life fighting a fire in Ventura County.     His name is Cory Iverson and I met him once, ever so briefly and he was a wonderful man.  San Diego cried when that happened and I'm glad he  was honored.

 

That was very classy of Santa Barbara to do that.

 

 

[*Miss G*]

How are biological requirements dealt with in the lifeboats/rafts?  

[Heartgrove]

15 hours ago, HamOp said:

From a former Coastie, thank you!!

 

Same here! Semper Paratus!

[chengkp75]

44 minutes ago, *Miss G* said:

How are biological requirements dealt with in the lifeboats/rafts?  

There is a big blue bathroom surrounding the boat.  Modesty goes out the window in a lifesaving situation.

[*Miss G*]

6 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

There is a big blue bathroom surrounding the boat.  Modesty goes out the window in a lifesaving situation.

 

So one would hang their butt out the exit and hang on tight?  (Assuming one could make their way through the masses.). I’m also picturing a chain reaction of vomiting.  That would be fun.  On the bright side… the less to digest, the less to eliminate.