When ‘Free at Sea’ is not Free at At Sea

[DCGuy64]

8 minutes ago, schmoopie17 said:

How would they calculate it at time of purchase, since there is no way of knowing how many (or what cost) drinks you will be having?

 

4 minutes ago, macattack1111 said:

if you pay £150 for a drinks package and are charged 20% VAT  for this package...then the VAT Is £30...its not rocket science...I purchased the package in the UK...not on the ship and not in Spain.

Yeah, the problem with your depiction of things is you're seeing it as a tax levied on a package, when the VAT is supposed to levied at the time the drink is served. So as @schmoopie17 points out, there's no way to know how many drinks you will be served and thus no way to calculate the VAT on that (unknown) amount. The package might be the sale of the drinks, but not the serving of them. And that's when VAT kicks in.

[schmoopie17]

9 minutes ago, macattack1111 said:

if you pay £150 for a drinks package and are charged 20% VAT  for this package...then the VAT Is £30...its not rocket science...I purchased the package in the UK...not on the ship and not in Spain.

You're right, it's not rocket science. Your example is paying tax on the PACKAGE.

VAT is charged by the DRINK. Again, no way to predict what or how much you will be drinking.

Not rocket science at all...

 

 

Edited September 28, 2023 by schmoopie17

[cerireeves]

Using it now on free wifi

[European_CruiseGirl]

I’ll be in a week on RCI Rome 7 day rt and we have their drink package. Interesting to see how they handle it. The cruise is Italy-France-Spain. 
 

Here it seems NCL has started to issue an invoice for the drinks for them to be able to charge the value added tax. Which btw is not a European or EU value added tax but each country has their own. Well doesn’t really matter. And then NCL reverses the charge but keeps the VAT charge on the account. 

Edited September 28, 2023 by European_CruiseGirl

[insidecabin]

41 minutes ago, graphicguy said:

But, you should only pay the VAT on what drinks you order, not what you might or might not order as paying the VAT on the entire package would make you do.

 

The purchase is the price of the package that it the VAT able item at point of purchase, that gets unlimited drinks with a cost of zero.

 

Same for places like all you can eat restaurants on land any VAT is on the cover charge not a nominal cost on the stuff you eat.

 

By using the nominal costs then VAT should be added to all food and drink in including every tea bag at the buffet.

 

[Capitan Obvious]

2 hours ago, Asawi said:

Isn't DSC $20/day? 20+10% makes 22. And 22 is what's being charged. Hence I draw the conclusion VAT of 10% has been added. Why else the extra 2?

 

It isn't the DSC.The $22 is the price for two $11 drinks. The next line on the check indicates that it is the 20% service charge/gratuity that is charged (when you buy your drinks without F@S).

 

2 hours ago, Asawi said:

While I agree that the wording of the headline and the picture of the receipt may have been misleading, I just got a bit fed up with all the talk of OP not having FAS. I would have thought it obvious that it wasn't about being charged for the drinks but for the VAT. Apparently I was wrong. Again... 

 

I would argue that it is anything but obvious. If it was just one or two confused people I could understand your point, but the fact is that the vast majority of people on the thread have questioned whether or not F@S was present. The exact opposite of "obvious".

[Capitan Obvious]

1 hour ago, macattack1111 said:

I think a lot of people are missing the point about about this VAT malarky.

1.When booking and paying their cruise..no one was aware that they  would be charged an extra 10%..20% what ever it is on drinks when they purchased the packages...THIS IS TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE FROM NCL...They seem to be blaming the countries involved but deserve the negative press they are receiving from Social Media and the News papers.

2.They need to charge the VAT at source..ie you buy the package in the uk say for £150 ..then you should pay the VAT then.

FREE AT SEA....it certainly isnt.

 

 

But your argument is built on misconceptions.

 

First, the terms and conditions clearly point out that a VAT tax can be charged by certain ports/countries and that the guest is responsible for payment. It isn't just stated once, but it stated TWICE in the T&Cs.  When you don't bother to read/understand what you are buying, it negates the "totally unacceptable from NCL" position. They can't FORCE you to read it.

 

Of course they blame the countries involved...those countries are levying and collecting the tax. Why shouldn't they be blamed? This is like blaming your employer when the government takes taxes out of your paycheck.

 

Talk about missing the point...FWIW, they ARE charging the VAT at source. The VAT is levied on each served drink, NOT on each sold package (again, this is the law enacted by the country) so NCL follows the law by collecting the VAT each time a drink is served.

 

Free at Sea only awards you drinks without the drink charge. You still have to pay gratuity, taxes, etc...not to mention you have to buy an entire cruise just to get it. Are you really going to die on the "its not free" hill?

[Stevio]

1 hour ago, schmoopie17 said:

You're right, it's not rocket science. Your example is paying tax on the PACKAGE.

VAT is charged by the DRINK. Again, no way to predict what or how much you will be drinking.

Not rocket science at all...

 

 

VAT is paid as a percentage of a price paid. In the UK (and EU) tax is paid on the drinks package at purchase.

 

No vat is payable on a "Free at sea" served drink because there is no charge and a percentage of zero is zero.

 

It is plainly stated that the OP has the F.A.S package and is being charged by NCL the VAT on what used to be an included item.

 

Edited September 28, 2023 by Stevio

[graphicguy]

53 minutes ago, insidecabin said:

 

The purchase is the price of the package that it the VAT able item at point of purchase, that gets unlimited drinks with a cost of zero.

 

Same for places like all you can eat restaurants on land any VAT is on the cover charge not a nominal cost on the stuff you eat.

 

By using the nominal costs then VAT should be added to all food and drink in including every tea bag at the buffet.

 

If that’s the case, using your logic, then European ports can charge  VAT on the buffet, or the toilet paper, or the ice, etc.

[ontheweb]

1 hour ago, graphicguy said:

But, you should only pay the VAT on what drinks you order, not what you might or might not order as paying the VAT on the entire package would make you do.

I agree, but how then do they justify you pay the tips as if you bought as much drinks as you are allowed to buy as opposed to just the ones you do buy?

[graphicguy]

4 minutes ago, Stevio said:

VAT is paid as a percentage of a price paid. In the UK (and EU) tax is paid on the drinks package at purchase.

 

No vat is payable on a "Free at sea" served drink because there is no charge and a percentage of zero is zero.

 

It is plainly stated that the OP has the F.A.S package and is being charged by NCL the VAT on what used to be an included item.

 

The receipt also shows that the OP is being charged for drinks.  If it is indeed FAS, there should be no such charge.

 

Something’s wrong….until rhe OP gets to Customer Service, we won’t have a clear explanation!

[Stevio]

1 minute ago, graphicguy said:

The receipt also shows that the OP is being charged for drinks.  If it is indeed FAS, there should be no such charge.

 

Something’s wrong….until rhe OP gets to Customer Service, we won’t have a clear explanation!

I thought that was the whole point of this thread, the fact that the Epic is currently charging VAT on drinks in European waters that were previously included and providing receipts to itemise the VAT charges although the drink price itself is not billed... see post 44.

[graphicguy]

5 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

I agree, but how then do they justify you pay the tips as if you bought as much drinks as you are allowed to buy as opposed to just the ones you do buy?

I do think NCL is having issues with policy as it applies in Europe vs U.S. based itineraries.

 

I’ve always felt that NCL’s IT has been, at best, klunky. And at worst, a roadblock.

 

Look no further than the gyrations the restaurant schedulers have to go through just to seat you at a pre-reserved table!  Or, what Customer Service has to go through just to fix an errant charge!

[Nixxon]

22 minutes ago, Capitan Obvious said:

NCL follows the law by collecting the VAT each time a drink is served.

Just for your information I bought a dinner package and a open bar package (separately) to an event in Spain in two weeks. Both packages include VAT. I honestly don’t know how much, as prices in Europe are almost always quoted including VAT. I guarantee that no one will levy VAT on each drink. I will get a bracelet upon entering, which will get me free drinks at the bar.

[DCGuy64]

Interestingly, I found this thread by using the search function and the keywords NCL and VAT: https://boards.cruisecritic.co.uk/topic/2493526-10-spanish-vat-on-bar-charges-at-ncl/ It's from January 2018, well over 5 years ago. I think some people have mistakenly assumed this is a new issue, but obviously it isn't. Also, the possibility of VAT being added is in NCL's literature like on this flyer. It IS in small print, but it's there.

https://www.ncl.com/sites/default/files/790164-BEV_Package_Flyer_UOBP_PPBP Update_V7_no_crops.pdf

Edited September 28, 2023 by DCGuy64

[graphicguy]

5 minutes ago, Stevio said:

I thought that was the whole point of this thread, the fact that the Epic is currently charging VAT on drinks in European waters that were previously included and providing receipts to itemise the VAT charges although the drink price itself is not billed... see post 44.

Just looked at #44. OP was charged for drinks when drinks are included with FAS.  That’s what I keep saying…something doesn’t make sense.  Until we hear back from the OP with an explanation from Customer Service, the bigger issue is being charged for drinks with FAS!

[dbrown84]

10 hours ago, Asawi said:

Thank you @PollyMurg for the update! PLEASE come back later with more reports. Id your WiFi minutes are getting low, come back when you're on free WiFi!

Some things I want to know:

How is it working in Italy?
Is the VAT on soft drinks as well (I see you have a Starbucks. Did you get VAT on that?)
How about speciality dinner? 

 

Everyone else: There has been much talk about the why there is a charge for drinks if you have FAS. Well, as I think someone mentioned briefly before, they need to ring in an amount to get the VAT calculated correctly. NCL's system the removes that amount before the charge gets to the onboard account. 

 

 

thanks for clarifying this.  I'm shutting my mouth now 🙂

[Asawi]

40 minutes ago, Capitan Obvious said:

 

It isn't the DSC.The $22 is the price for two $11 drinks. The next line on the check indicates that it is the 20% service charge/gratuity that is charged (when you buy your drinks without F@S).

No it's not! It clearly says service charge! In post #48 another person has this. And they state they hace been refunded for it.

[graphicguy]

5 minutes ago, DCGuy64 said:

Interestingly, I found this thread by using the search function and the keywords NCL and VAT: https://boards.cruisecritic.co.uk/topic/2493526-10-spanish-vat-on-bar-charges-at-ncl/ It's from January 2018, well over 5 years ago. I think some people have mistakenly assumed this is a new issue, but obviously it isn't.

Thanks…so this same question has been going on for years.  

 

It’s not a recent question.

 

So VAT is to be paid in Spain.  Duly noted.  To our European friends.  You get some of my American dollars via VAT.

 

You’re welcome!

[Asawi]

5 minutes ago, graphicguy said:

Just looked at #44. OP was charged for drinks when drinks are included with FAS.  That’s what I keep saying…something doesn’t make sense.  Until we hear back from the OP with an explanation from Customer Service, the bigger issue is being charged for drinks with FAS!

Aren't you talking about the service charge now? That's not drinks! Check out post #48 as well.

[graphicguy]

2 minutes ago, Asawi said:

No it's not! It clearly says service charge! In post #48 another person has this. And they state they hace been refunded for it.

We’ve tried to explain it.  No matter how much we explain it, you won’t accept it.  Can’t help you any more.

 

Good luck!

[Asawi]

1 minute ago, graphicguy said:

We’ve tried to explain it.  No matter how much we explain it, you won’t accept it.  Can’t help you any more.

 

OMG! Laughing out really loud here. YOU are the one not getting it! I was just about to write that I give up on trying. 

 

 

 

 

[DCGuy64]

8 minutes ago, graphicguy said:

We’ve tried to explain it.  No matter how much we explain it, you won’t accept it.  Can’t help you any more.

 

Good luck!

This thread kinda makes me laugh, in a way. As much as people on Cruise Critic casually talk about the many cruises they have booked, or how they simply have to pay for Premium+, or how they always sail in The Haven, here we are talking about comparatively trifling amounts of money, and you'd think it's the end of the world. Oh, I know there are those who say "it's not about the money." Yes, it is. It's always about the money. And it's not a lot of money, either. But hey, if some people wanna die on the VAT hill, go right ahead. I'm socking away some extra $ for our cruise in November, just in case.

[macattack1111]

if I go on the Epic...and I didnt purchase a drinks package and buy individual drinks...then I would expect to pay vat and service charge according to NCL terms and conditions....But If I buy a drinks package what says all inclusive/ open bar...then that should be the end of it....no more to be paid......JUST LIKE OTHER CRUISE LINE DRINKS PACKAGES.

It was a suggestion NCL should charge at source if you buy a drinks package....There is something seriously wrong if hundreds of passengers are lining up at customer service desks to complain.

[Phoenixon]

8 minutes ago, macattack1111 said:

if I go on the Epic...and I didnt purchase a drinks package and buy individual drinks...then I would expect to pay vat and service charge according to NCL terms and conditions....But If I buy a drinks package what says all inclusive/ open bar...then that should be the end of it....no more to be paid......JUST LIKE OTHER CRUISE LINE DRINKS PACKAGES.

It was a suggestion NCL should charge at source if you buy a drinks package....There is something seriously wrong if hundreds of passengers are lining up at customer service desks to complain.

 

Except that the VAT law in the EU requires a chargeable event which occurs at the time of supply of the good/service. In this case, it is the "purchase" (or supply) of the beverage, whether or not it is discounted 100% because of FAS. My understanding is the reason this is not charged on included consumables (e.g. buffet) is because there is no chargeable event (i.e. transaction - your card is not swiped). Other consumables (e.g. Specialty Dining) are likely not being passed on (as of now). Somewhat like the fuel subsidies which NCL has the right to levy per the contracts but chooses not to. 

 

 

 

Edited September 28, 2023 by Phoenixon