Possible Reason why Seashore and Seascape seem understaffed.

[dshroyer]

We just completed a 4-day cruise on the Seashore in the Yacht Club.  We felt the ship was very crowded and we were even disappointed with the Yacht Club service.  As I look at all the cruise critic reviews, there are mostly complaints about food quality and service.  Why is that?  Why does it seem understaffed?

 

My theory is because the ships were designed for lesser service.  What do I mean?

 

Here is a quick analysis that I put together.  It shows various ships big and small.  And it calculates the “passengers per crew” metric.  The lower the number the better.  Much better to be on a ship where there are 2 crew members per passenger than 5 crew per passenger, right? 

 

If you look at the grid you will see something jump out.  The new MSC ships have a lot higher passenger to crew rates! 30% to 40% higher than their competitors.  They cannot “hire more people” to provide better service because the ship is built with a limited amount of crew members. The only thing they can do to increase service is to limit the number of passengers onboard.  (To fall in line with competitive ratios)

 

We were on the Maraviglia twice last year and loved it.  But the ship was only about 60% full.  If you look at the grid you will notice that the Seashore has 831 more passengers than the Maraviglia but only 13 more crew members!  What? 

 

These new ships have been built to provide a lower level of service.  Is it a coincidence that MSC cruises are about 30% cheaper than their competitors and the service ratio is about 30% worse?

 

Bottom line is if food and beverage service is not important then you can have a good time on one of these newer ships.  But I would say that you cannot expect to get the same level of service as the other competitors, at least based on these numbers. Unless you can get on a ship that is less than 70% capacity.

 

 

[JAGR]

At least your chart spells Meraviglia correctly!  In all seriousness, it would be interesting to somehow carve out the passenger-facing crew numbers for comparison. I do think that they cutting across the board, but I'm wondering how much efficiency measures have reduced the number of behind-the-scenes crew totals (e.g., automation advances with laundry, number of engineering support personnel for machine and motor preventive maintenance, less dependence on communications personnel, etc.). It may not be all that significant, but there are differences between Seashore/Seascape and Seaside/Seaside.

[At Sea At Peace]

2 hours ago, dshroyer said:

We just completed a 4-day cruise on the Seashore in the Yacht Club.  We felt the ship was very crowded and we were even disappointed with the Yacht Club service.  As I look at all the cruise critic reviews, there are mostly complaints about food quality and service.  Why is that?  Why does it seem understaffed?

 

My theory is because the ships were designed for lesser service.  What do I mean?

 

Here is a quick analysis that I put together.  It shows various ships big and small.  And it calculates the “passengers per crew” metric.  The lower the number the better.  Much better to be on a ship where there are 2 crew members per passenger than 5 crew per passenger, right? 

 

 

Seriously, the MSC and Yacht Club hits keep coming.  That's great!  The USA based ships MSC Yacht Club staterooms are one the toughest to find.  Wonder why?  Oh, 'unhappiness' of course.

 

So, you completed a 4-day cruise, made a judgement about the entire cruise line, cherry picked stats re: ratios and, low and behold, MSC's 'business plan' is to 'underservice customers!'

 

YIKES.  You're not alone.  A lot of this going on recently, but not mathematically (your thesis) supported as the # of guests per week on the MSC cruises, and the Yacht Club specifically, doesn't show any such support other than a very tiny sub-1% minority at best.

 

 YET, the quality of 'service' and 'food' is the hottest topic (complaint) across ALL cruise lines (top 4).  Hmmm.  Maybe all of the cruise lines have planned to provide bad service?

 

Thanks for including Disney ships. Add the price points to your grid and that mouse will stand out in another way.

 

Again, great.  It's tough to get a B2B in the Yacht Club now that more get to experience the offering and the value. We've done 7 B2B's since 2017, have another upcoming end of March into April.  Looking forward to the same ole reliable terrible understaffing.  LOL.

 

2 hours ago, JAGR said:

At least your chart spells Meraviglia correctly!  In all seriousness, it would be interesting to somehow carve out the passenger-facing crew numbers for comparison. 

 

How about apples to apples.  Yacht Club passengers to staff.  Haven passengers to staff.  Retreat passengers to staff.  BTW, the 'B&M-ing from the Retreat customer base is off the wall since the Butler change and possibly also upcharges for wine and drinks over the cap.  Maybe, under the thesis proffered here, Celebrity is also intentionally is building ships-within-ships to make their customers unhappy with planned inferior service.

 

Edited December 27, 2023 by At Sea At Peace

[JT1962]

The Seashore & Seascape have been my least favorite ships of the MSC cruises I have taken. Both felt much more crowded and cramped than the Meraviglia or Divina (my favorite).  It feels like they tried to add more revenue making options (restaurants, bars, shops, etc.) and cut down on open public areas that generated no revenue. I understand the reasons, but it may not pay off in the long run if people have a poor experience and don’t return. 

[At Sea At Peace]

18 minutes ago, JT1962 said:

The Seashore & Seascape have been my least favorite ships of the MSC cruises I have taken. Both felt much more crowded and cramped than the Meraviglia or Divina (my favorite).  It feels like they tried to add more revenue making options (restaurants, bars, shops, etc.) and cut down on open public areas that generated no revenue. I understand the reasons, but it may not pay off in the long run if people have a poor experience and don’t return. 

 

It's the same story on Royal.

 

It's the same story on Celebrity.  Just on Silhouette. 10N SC.  Packed to the gills. 

 

We were happy as could be yet the CC uber ultra minority of dissatisfied disgruntled have the biggest megaphone and are truly not representative of the other multiple thousands not expressing such.  It's what social media has allowed to manifest (quite negatively).  

 

For example, 150 protesters recently in NYC....get all the attention.  NYC has 8.5m people.  8,499,850 people did not protest.  Not at all part of the story

 

It's the same story on Carnival.

 

It's the same story . . . . 

 

Food, drinks, service not the same.  Across the board.  Not unlike state-side.  It is what it is.

 

Except for MSC, the other big 3 have 'billions' in interest expense to cover.

[Av8tor]

10 hours ago, dshroyer said:

Here is a quick analysis that I put together.  It shows various ships big and small.  And it calculates the “passengers per crew” metric.  The lower the number the better.  Much better to be on a ship where there are 2 crew members per passenger than 5 crew per passenger, right? 

i understand your concept of the passenger per crew metric, but I think your last sentence above is expressed backwards.  For "better" service I'd rather have 5 crew per pax than 2 crew per pax OR 2 pax  per crew  instead of 5 pax per crew...

[dshroyer]

12 hours ago, At Sea At Peace said:

 

Seriously, the MSC and Yacht Club hits keep coming.  That's great!  The USA based ships MSC Yacht Club staterooms are one the toughest to find.  Wonder why?  Oh, 'unhappiness' of course.

 

So, you completed a 4-day cruise, made a judgement about the entire cruise line, cherry picked stats re: ratios and, low and behold, MSC's 'business plan' is to 'underservice customers!'

 

This was my 4th MSC cruise.  What ratios did I cherry pick?  Just showing that the ship was designed for lesser service.  Price has nothing to do with that fact other than it explains how MSC can undercut the competition.  I did not judge the entire cruise line.  I said "the new MSC ships".  Can you explain why they built the ships with the notion of packing more passengers per crew member than other lines?  

 

And I was not talking about yacht club.  But now that you bring it up.  That makes the ratio even worse.  Some lines, like HAL, do not have a dedicated area.  So those crew members can serve the general public.  On MSC part of that crew count goes to serve less than 5% of the population. Meaning that "the rest of the ship" even has a higher passenger to crew ratio.

[dshroyer]

5 hours ago, Av8tor said:

i understand your concept of the passenger per crew metric, but I think your last sentence above is expressed backwards.  For "better" service I'd rather have 5 crew per pax than 2 crew per pax OR 2 pax  per crew  instead of 5 pax per crew...

Yes.  Ha.  exactly backwards.  Thanks

[dshroyer]

12 hours ago, At Sea At Peace said:

 

 

So, you completed a 4-day cruise, made a judgement about the entire cruise line, cherry picked stats re: ratios and, low and behold, MSC's 'business plan' is to 'underservice customers!'

 

Look at the stats for the harmony and compare to the Seashore.  Very similar passenger counts.  Yet the Harmony ship has almost 1K more crew members!  Are you saying that MSC can provide a similar customer experience with 1K less crew?

 

I do not understand how this can even be debatable. Seems like you are making excuses for MSC.

I think it is clear that MSC has a low-price strategy. And the way they implement that low price is via labor cuts.  (as compared to other lines) That is why the ships have less crew cabins.  It is their formula.  Nothing wrong with that.  Not saying that MSC is not a good value. But it is their business plan.

 

I agree that the other lines are also "packed" and there are also complaints about food.  BUT if you look at the other lines most of the aggregate customer ratings are in the high 3's or low 4's.  Seashore is 2.8 POOR.

 

The ship is beautiful.  What could make people rate is so low?

And please do not bring up the yacht club.  It is less than 5% of the ship and that is truly "cherry picking".  

[At Sea At Peace]

3 hours ago, dshroyer said:

This was my 4th MSC cruise.  What ratios did I cherry pick?  Just showing that the ship was designed for lesser service.  Price has nothing to do with that fact other than it explains how MSC can undercut the competition.  I did not judge the entire cruise line.  I said "the new MSC ships".  Can you explain why they built the ships with the notion of packing more passengers per crew member than other lines?  

 

 

Well, you didn't state that it was your 4th MSC cruise.  Which brings to mind a fair question, if you do not like MSC why the 2nd, 3rd and 4th decision to continue?

 

You cherry picked and you know you did.  Simple post a link to the articles ranking each ships by each cruise line and that would be non-cherry picked.

 

To the core, the more advanced design, the more advanced operating systems (think kitchens, laundry, automation and on and on) and, like state-side, technology is decreasing the human equivalent element across the board.  MSC is very innovative and technologically on the arc of the curve.  So, one understanding of such would suspect that ALL large cruise lines would logically have a higher passenger to crew ratio than their older ships, but one might only be able to look at the cost of technology and automation capital outlay per passenger for the other side of pendulum.

 

Again, scoffing at MSC because they planned 'the notion of packing more passengers per crew' as an attempt to punish future customer passengers is a business plan that doesn't make sense to an unbiased eye or ear.  They're approaching overtaking NCL, just a decade ago they were likely not even in the conversation.  RESULTS make more of a compelling argument that uninformed tainting by a couple of passengers out of hundreds of thousands who are not complaining.

 

Just saying.

 

3 hours ago, dshroyer said:

And I was not talking about yacht club.  But now that you bring it up.  That makes the ratio even worse.  Some lines, like HAL, do not have a dedicated area.  So those crew members can serve the general public.  On MSC part of that crew count goes to serve less than 5% of the population. Meaning that "the rest of the ship" even has a higher passenger to crew ratio.

 

Now we get to the HEART of the matter.  MSC is bad because it has a Yacht Club, taking away from services to non-Yacht Club.  Ugh.  No mention of NCL Haven or Celebrity Retreat.  Likely also social inequality providers?  Yikes.  I guess that makes the selection of even staterooms unfair and a disservice to many categories.

 

Just go Carnival, or their 'premium line' HAL.

 

[At Sea At Peace]

3 hours ago, dshroyer said:

Look at the stats for the harmony and compare to the Seashore.  Very similar passenger counts.  Yet the Harmony ship has almost 1K more crew members!  Are you saying that MSC can provide a similar customer experience with 1K less crew?

 

 

You are displaying what is known as confirmation bias as you'll only look for what supports your narrative.  There's nothing wrong with that.  I happens all the time.

 

You are also focusing on just the servers (service) aspect of the ships, ignoring the size of the ships and the amount of crew dedicated to the ship (non-servers, etc.)

 

They have to run the ship in addition to serving food and drinks!

 

Harmony of the Seas - 226,963 Tonnage, Crew 2,300 - Crew to Thousand Tonnage to Service and Maintain 10

 

Seashore - 154,000 Tonnage, Crew 1,648 - Crew to Thousand Tonnage to Service and Maintain 9

[At Sea At Peace]

3 hours ago, dshroyer said:

 

I agree that the other lines are also "packed" and there are also complaints about food.  BUT if you look at the other lines most of the aggregate customer ratings are in the high 3's or low 4's.  Seashore is 2.8 POOR.

 

 

Seashore has sailed for 125 7-day equivalent week cruises, with a capacity of 5,179 (which should be modified for phase in post pandering).  That's almost 650,000 passengers.  CruiseCritic rating of 2.8 is based on 134 reviews!

 

As I stated before, 134 that rated (mostly poor) versus the 649,866 that did not.  Hmmm.

[PTC DAWG]

3-4 day cruises on any line in any area are different than 7 days plus, they just are.

[Morgsmom]

Interesting conversation.  I recently got off a 4 night in YC on Seashore and agree that the service level was quite diminished vs prior YC sailings.  However, I attributed it to the YC Director more so than staffing.

 

As far as #'s go, there are a lot of positions for which  you only need 1 (or a fixed number) regardless of size of vessel. One Captain, One Hotel Director, etc.  Theoretically you can increase the number of dinner slots and have the exact same # of servers onboard so it is not linear.  80 servers can handle one seating, or 3 seatings and 3x as many guests.  

 

To me the math doesn't work.

[dshroyer]

4 hours ago, At Sea At Peace said:

 

Well, you didn't state that it was your 4th MSC cruise.  Which brings to mind a fair question, if you do not like MSC why the 2nd, 3rd and 4th decision to continue?

 

 

 

My first three cruises were non yacht club in 2022.  We had a great time.  But the ships were about 50% full.  I thought it was a great value and thought the service was comparable to other lines.  I even told people that I recommend the line.  But seeing the Seashore full was a back breaker for me.  Even though we were in yacht club.  When we left the ship was hot and packed.  

 

The reason why I picked those lines and ships is because I have sailed on them.  And I wanted a quick analysis of the Seashore to ships and lines that I knew. (Except not the Euriba)

 

If you want to prove my theory faulty, I encourage you to do all of the ships and lines.  (But you may not like what you find).  My point is that MSC builds it ships with less crew in mind for the amount of passengers.  Maybe they have robots below deck and that is how they can do it.  But I have also read cruise articles that say the reason why the fares are cheaper is the lower amount of labor and that is shown in the ship design.

[dshroyer]

4 hours ago, At Sea At Peace said:

 

You are displaying what is known as confirmation bias as you'll only look for what supports your narrative.  There's nothing wrong with that.  I happens all the time.

 

You have cognitive dissonance.  Happens all the time.  :>)

[dshroyer]

4 hours ago, At Sea At Peace said:

Now we get to the HEART of the matter.  MSC is bad because it has a Yacht Club, taking away from services to non-Yacht Club.  Ugh.  No mention of NCL Haven or Celebrity Retreat.  Likely also social inequality providers?  Yikes.  I guess that makes the selection of even staterooms unfair and a disservice to many categories.

 

Just go Carnival, or their 'premium line' HAL.

 

I was in the yacht club.  I have two more yacht clubs booked. (which I may cancel) If I thought the yacht club was bad, why would I book it 3 times?  Not sure what you are getting at.

 

What is my narrative? You are looking at this from a yacht club perspective.  Look at Haven or Retreat.

Fine.  MSC may be better than those.  I have no idea.  But my original post is about the entire ship.  Not a yacht club comparison. 

[Two Wheels Only]

The numbers may be interesting but the actual experience is more important. If I have a great cruise on a ship that has a worse guest to staff ratio, I won't care about the numbers. In fact, if other people on the same cruise have a terrible cruise and my cruise is great, I still won't care.

 

Looking at the Morpheusofthesea review of Explora Journeys 1, maybe guest to staff ratio is overrated....🤪

 

 

Edited December 28, 2023 by Two Wheels Only

[morpheusofthesea]

16 minutes ago, Two Wheels Only said:

maybe guest to staff ratio is overrated....🤪

Please elaborate on what I reported. Perhaps I was not clear. Because the ship is running at 60% occupancy there is a 1:1 ratio which translates to exceptional service.

[Two Wheels Only]

3 minutes ago, morpheusofthesea said:

Please elaborate on what I reported. Perhaps I was not clear. Because the ship is running at 60% occupancy there is a 1:1 ratio which translates to exceptional service.

 

It seems that even through EJ has the better ratio, YC is/would be the preferable overall experience (ship stability, value, etc.), at least for us.

[morpheusofthesea]

46 minutes ago, Two Wheels Only said:

 

It seems that even through EJ has the better ratio, YC is/would be the preferable overall experience (ship stability, value, etc.), at least for us.

Yes, for us as well.

[At Sea At Peace]

2 hours ago, dshroyer said:

 

The reason why I picked those lines and ships is because I have sailed on them.  And I wanted a quick analysis of the Seashore to ships and lines that I knew. (Except not the Euriba)

 

 

Your thesis is that MSC "is building its new ships to intentionally underservice its passengers" and you cite the passengers to crew (with no apparent understanding or knowledge of "staff" versus "crew" or "tonnage" in ignorans) ratio and the related ratings of 134 on CruiseCritic as proof.  😂

 

I am sorry, but after only a few recent MSC short cruises there appears to be more time spent bashing MSC than was actually spent on the MSC ships.

 

There is a solution, go elsewhere.

[At Sea At Peace]

3 hours ago, dshroyer said:

You have cognitive dissonance.  Happens all the time.  :>)

 

Cite the support for that from these posts.  You can't.  You make it up.  A reasonably prudent person how you could even assert that if you knew what it meant.  Apparently you don't.

 

In the same breath, thank you for honestly not contesting that you use cognitive bias to look for support for your anti-MSC posts.  A good thing.

[At Sea At Peace]

3 hours ago, dshroyer said:

I was in the yacht club.  I have two more yacht clubs booked. (which I may cancel) If I thought the yacht club was bad, why would I book it 3 times?  Not sure what you are getting at.

 

What is my narrative? You are looking at this from a yacht club perspective.  Look at Haven or Retreat.

Fine.  MSC may be better than those.  I have no idea.  But my original post is about the entire ship.  Not a yacht club comparison. 

 

Well, you stated that MSC dedicates resources to the select few in the Yacht Club instead of, like HAL you stated that didn't have a separate club-within-a-club, dedicating such resources to all guests.

 

That's talking out of one side of the mouth and booking on the other side.  You espouse dilution of the Yacht Club for the benefit of the non-Yacht Club, yet book the Yacht Club?

 

You ought to run for political office.  Do as I say not as I .....

 

 

[At Sea At Peace]

2 hours ago, morpheusofthesea said:

Please elaborate on what I reported. Perhaps I was not clear. Because the ship is running at 60% occupancy there is a 1:1 ratio which translates to exceptional service.

 

2 hours ago, Two Wheels Only said:

 

It seems that even through EJ has the better ratio, YC is/would be the preferable overall experience (ship stability, value, etc.), at least for us.

 

We kept right along with @morpheusofthesea reporting on EJ.  We've decided to let that run our a bit more before we give it a try and stick to the YC.  It's still a hard ticket for B2B's and the prices are almost 3X our initial MSC YC cruise.  But that is OK, we prefer it to the Haven hands down and don't want the Retreat pricing with the restaurant and lounge down under in the back of the ship (not a comparable model to YC or Haven).

 

Two Wheels also pointed out personal happiness on a cruise.  We've enjoyed every (every) cruise we've been on.  A lot didn't go well or as planned, be being at sea is "us" and we take everything with no personal attachment.  It happens.  The cruise ships are packed liked restaurants on New Years, Easter, Mother's Day etc. et al.  There will be people all over and there will be congestion and lines (going to a buffet on a cruise ship and expecting no lines, no crowding and open seating is lunacy).