New rules for wheelchair users

[Harry Peterson]

1 minute ago, Cathygh said:

I think we hahve established that there are a limited number of evac chairs available and a limited number of staff who can operate them.

 

Meanwhile, there a number of passengers who need an evac chair but who do not need an adapted cabin eg someone with bad arthritis can manage to walk around the ship but can not climb or descend stairs, and they are often the people who need assistance on embarkation/disembarkation as the walkways are too steep and long for them to walk unaided. I know of someone about to sail with P&O who is in the situation and who has an evac chair allocated.

 

How many chairs can P&O operate on their ships currently? They aren't saying. There seems to be no willingness to invest in additional chairs and the staff required to use them. A quick google shows the chairs cost from £143 to over £800. I guess they could get the cost down for a bulk buy. 

 

I don't think P&O need to dilute the policy, but they do need to get more chairs and staff trained to use them asap.

I do agree. But there’s a cost involved, particularly in staff training and retraining, and it looks as if Carnival have decided it’s no longer a cost that’s necessary - because of the changed and still changing passenger profile. There was a time when older and less able passengers were required to fill the ships, but that’s changing fast.

[Megabear2]

1 hour ago, Victoria2 said:

The form should be completed and submitted with the booking. One assumes [it could be a mistake to assume but I have to here] a  member of the disability [yes, there is a dept. for this apparently] staff will [should]  scrutinise the completed form

Unfortunately this appears to not happen until a long time after the booking has been accepted or at all.  My husband has been affected by this on both lines and I have had to proactively chase to ensure the walking stick has been noted.  He does not use it full time, very rarely in fact on Aurora in August it was the first time in 14 years whilst on holiday.  

 

In January this year, I had acknowledgement in writing from this department four days into the voyage!

 

My point is that if this new policy is going to disbarr so many from travel going forward this form should be part of the booking process not left to the passenger who may not even understand its relevance to them - the very title of the form misleads in that many believe "Disability" is for wheelchair/scooter users or blue badge holders. They do not associate "Disability" with their own position.

 

[terrierjohn]

1 hour ago, Cathygh said:

I think we hahve established that there are a limited number of evac chairs available and a limited number of staff who can operate them.

 

Meanwhile, there a number of passengers who need an evac chair but who do not need an adapted cabin eg someone with bad arthritis can manage to walk around the ship but can not climb or descend stairs, and they are often the people who need assistance on embarkation/disembarkation as the walkways are too steep and long for them to walk unaided. I know of someone about to sail with P&O who is in the situation and who has an evac chair allocated.

 

How many chairs can P&O operate on their ships currently? They aren't saying. There seems to be no willingness to invest in additional chairs and the staff required to use them. A quick google shows the chairs cost from £143 to over £800. I guess they could get the cost down for a bulk buy. 

 

I don't think P&O need to dilute the policy, but they do need to get more chairs and staff trained to use them asap.

According to their response to BBCs Watchdog, the evac chairs can service several passengers, so I guess it is the number of staff P&O are willing to allocate to the evac chair assistance that is the determining factor, and they must have already made that decision.

[Victoria2]

25 minutes ago, Megabear2 said:

Unfortunately this appears to not happen until a long time after the booking has been accepted or at all.  My husband has been affected by this on both lines and I have had to proactively chase to ensure the walking stick has been noted.  He does not use it full time, very rarely in fact on Aurora in August it was the first time in 14 years whilst on holiday.  

 

In January this year, I had acknowledgement in writing from this department four days into the voyage!

 

My point is that if this new policy is going to disbarr so many from travel going forward this form should be part of the booking process not left to the passenger who may not even understand its relevance to them - the very title of the form misleads in that many believe "Disability" is for wheelchair/scooter users or blue badge holders. They do not associate "Disability" with their own position.

 

Again, I agree with you [The form should be completed and submitted with the booking] and this still hasn't been addressed on the Cunard and P&O  web sites as it's indicted ' as soon as possible after booking, and no later than two weeks before you sail rather than at time of booking

 

Unfortunately, it comes down to either an excellent travel agent or a cruise consultant who will do the relevant questioning at the time of booking plus the age old issue of read the [not so] small print of 'Your onboard needs' before booking.

Edited 20 hours ago by Victoria2
added 'and P&O'

[david63]

20 minutes ago, Victoria2 said:

and no later than two weeks before you sail

It would make more sense if it said "... and no later than two weeks after booking"

 

What happens if you complete the form two weeks before sailing and you are denied boarding? Will P&O/Cunard refund all monies paid? (I think we all know the answer to that!)

[GOLDSURFER]

If you are going to book a cruise with PO the first thing to establish is to book a disability cabin with an evacuation chair attached.

No point in carry on unless this is established

I had two cruises cancelled 35 days on Iona to Barbados Jan 12 2025 also 14 days on Arvia to the med with a disable cabin but no evacuation chairs as booked before new law.

Have moved to 2026 different cruises but with evacuation chairs with no problem doing so as I was on BRITANNIA at the time..

So now I have six cruises with evacuation chairs, but it doesn't end there now they are Questioning the make of my Mobility Scooter so have sent a copy of my bill of sale. They are finding new ways to upset us now.

Derek 85, 

[Victoria2]

18 minutes ago, david63 said:

It would make more sense if it said "... and no later than two weeks after booking"

 

What happens if you complete the form two weeks before sailing and you are denied boarding? Will P&O/Cunard refund all monies paid? (I think we all know the answer to that!)

It makes complete sense to say when a booking is made, the completed form should be submitted before the booking is accepted. As soon as possible is the nearest advice gets to that at the moment. Leaving it two weeks could be the difference between assistance availability, and none available.

 

 

 

[Megabear2]

The form should no longer exist. If the fitness to travel of the passenger is being questioned it should be questioned at the point of booking, be that by P&O agent, online or by independent travel agent. As so much store is being put by the two companies into mobility of a person a booking should not be possible without certain criteria being met.  The search for an evacuation chair is now part of the booking process, red flags are waved when wheelchairs, walking sticks, rollators etc are mentioned so the completion of a separate form in "normal" booking circumstances is totally irrelevant.  The cruise line is making the rules, they know who/what they can handle onboard and need to be upfront at the point they accept a booking. It's not difficult- we can accept "x" number with motorised devices, "y" number with non motorised and "z" number who have other declarable disabilities.  

 

Strict criteria, fully trained staff and passenger awareness should in most cases be able to deal with these things. Any grey areas could be dealt with by a transfer to the specialist team Victoria mentions and they make the final decision.

 

The big "however" though is being truthful about wanting to cut the numbers of absolutely all users of devices from walking sticks through to the most high tech wheelchair. In other words level with what each ship can actually cope with but it's most likely never going to be mentioned.

[Victoria2]

GOLDSURFER, what's so upsetting? We have had to submit details and dimensions on wheelchairs, powered and transit, for the last 12 mths.

If the answers aren't immediately to hand [thinking instructions of use here] we go to the internet to find relevant answers and insert them in the questionnaire.

[Victoria2]

Megabear2 one form should not be for all in an ideal world but this is corporate and with hundreds, possibly thousands of passengers, to deal with, it is what it is.

 

Bottom line, the cruise line should make sure the required level of assistance is available before booking is accepted and it is incumbent on agent and passenger to be aware impairments and disabilities on any level should be declared before going ahead with a hopeful booking.

 

[molecrochip]

The process changed in August/September when, but separately, the new power chair policy commenced. You should be asked if anyone has mobility problems or uses a wheelchair - either by P&O or the travel agent, depending who is taking your booking.

 

If the answer is yes, the agent should check for evacuation chairs before taking any money. They add the evacuation chair to day one of your cruise itinerary on the booking form.

 

The form is still required to say why and what assistance required. Previously this year, the evac chair was only allocated on your booking once the form was submitted.

 

There are more evacuation chairs than accessible cabins. There are enough trained staff for every evacuation chair. One issue is that someone in a standard cabin who uses a walking stick and can’t safely negotiate stairs may take an evacuation chair allocation. This could mean an accessible cabin is available but an evac chair is not.

 

In an emergency, evac chairs go down the stairs last - after more able passengers. Cabin stewards and stairway guides are used.

 

However, because evac chairs may gather in front of lifts ready to descend once the majority have relocated to their muster station, there is a limit on evacuation chairs which can be used in/around any specific lift lobby.

[molecrochip]

8 hours ago, Selbourne said:

Yes, that’s what I took from it as well. 
 

There are two things that I fail to understand and would really like to see a formal response from Carnival UK about;

 

1) Why are P&O and Carnival the only two lines adopting this stance?

 

2) How can they allow someone to successfully book an accessible cabin, only to subsequently say that they are unable to cope with them, supposedly due to a lack of evacuation chairs? 
 

SOLAS regulations are put into local law by local agencies - here it’s the Maritime Coastguard Agency.

 

Carnival U.K. is the registration entity for Cunard and P&O Cruises therefore possible that MCA has different interpretation.

 

Secondly, some of the 2024 / 2025 cruises were on sale two years before the rules changed and were implemented. At the time of booking all was good. When the new rules came in, CUK did a poor job alerting customers and checking.

[S1971]

7 hours ago, Winifred 22 said:

Given this response : This varies per ship, per sailing and also on the ship design.
This is your answer, other lines don’t have the exact same ships doing the exact same itineraries. Therefore it’s not a case of one size fits all. There is no implication that other lines are breaching regulations either. Different ship designs , different itineraries equals different criteria. 

 

We obviously have different views, SOLAS regulations would be a one fits all, there is no distinction between size or ship class.

 

Just my opinion.

 

 

[Megabear2]

1 hour ago, Victoria2 said:

Megabear2 one form should not be for all in an ideal world but this is corporate and with hundreds, possibly thousands of passengers, to deal with, it is what it is.

 

Bottom line, the cruise line should make sure the required level of assistance is available before booking is accepted and it is incumbent on agent and passenger to be aware impairments and disabilities on any level should be declared before going ahead with a hopeful booking.

 

Those thousands of passengers interact with the two cruise lines in some way to make a booking, be this by telephone, Internet or travel agent. Corporations are better placed than most to offer a full IT solution to ensure they abide by laws, therefore the removal of the secondary form could be easily achieved in 95% of the cases by those questions being amalgamated with the actual booking procedure, particularly now agents are instructed on what to ask about every single prospective passenger at the point of booking.  It's not rocket science it's quite simply a case of ask a question and weighing up the answer against the list provided, ie do you use a walking stick? Yes, more detail required, mark one to one assistance required (that's the recommended minimum), check how many of these one to one spaces are taken, okay you're good to book (or not).  The booking is marked at that point with the requirements met and accepted. No other form required unless the passenger has a mobility device requiring further detail such as weight/size measurements - see below.

 

Taking what are just slightly impaired passengers out of the mobility declaration at this point is relatively simple, prevents confusion and leaves the Disability Department free (as it once was) to deal with the more complex issues for the more serious disabilities. The current adapted "old" system is leading to mass confusion that is simply unnecessary.

 

Varies by ship/itinerary? In the ship details state clearly in black and white X ship has * number of cabins for use by those requiring electronic mobility devices and ** number of disability adapted cabins for use by others using non motorised mobility devices or needing adapted cabins for other health reasons.  A percentage of the remaining non adapted cabins may be reserved by those who use other forms of mobility aids such as walking sticks, frames etc and these can be booked at [cruise line] sole discretion until our ceiling limit is reached. 

 

As for timing/fairness, well I assume that those who booked the furthest out were offered the alternatives before newer bookers - though judging by TigerB and GOLDSURFER's experiences that may not have been the case.  Either way it appears it was a lottery for those concerned with no thought for individuals' actual circumstances, ie those with mobility scooters not required for permanent day to day use keeping their cabins while those with serious medical requirements for their wheelchairs have been displaced.  No matter the reasoning the latter should most definitely have been the ones with first claim to those adapted cabins as their chair is an extension of them and as such is a vital part of their actually being able to taketh holiday in the first place.  It was rude and offensive to Mrs Tiger to suggest she could travel if she used a non motorised chair, a totally ludicrous and possibly downright dangerous suggestion.  

 

Retrospective changing of long term bookings is dangerous. As a totally ludicrous example, imagine if Cunard tomorrow announced we are changing Queen Anne because we made a mistake so we're doing away with the Grills and going Britannia class only.  Sorry guys here's your money back, go see if you can get on one of the other fully booked ships in the Grills.  That is of course not going to happen but it is an extreme example of saying a company can just change its terms and conditions.

[Megabear2]

21 minutes ago, molecrochip said:

SOLAS regulations are put into local law by local agencies - here it’s the Maritime Coastguard Agency.

 

Carnival U.K. is the registration entity for Cunard and P&O Cruises therefore possible that MCA has different interpretation.

 

Secondly, some of the 2024 / 2025 cruises were on sale two years before the rules changed and were implemented. At the time of booking all was good. When the new rules came in, CUK did a poor job alerting customers and checking.

So do those rules apply to all ships sailing within our waters? If so why aren't Princess, Ambassador, Fred, Saga, Celebrity, RCI and Uncle Tom Cobbly doing the same as the Carnival U.K. companies? Are they supposedly sticking two fingers up and ignoring these new rules or are we going to get a repeat of all this with them?  If it's the law no one is above it, when will allow these other lines have to change policy by?

[Victoria2]

Megabear2 this can be discussed until blue in the face.

 

We can all have opinions how these new t&cs could be arranged [for want of a better phrase] and how basically unfair it seems and no amount of discussion and sensible theories proffered will change that at the moment. It is what it is.

 

 

[molecrochip]

16 minutes ago, Megabear2 said:

So do those rules apply to all ships sailing within our waters? If so why aren't Princess, Ambassador, Fred, Saga, Celebrity, RCI and Uncle Tom Cobbly doing the same as the Carnival U.K. companies? Are they supposedly sticking two fingers up and ignoring these new rules or are we going to get a repeat of all this with them?  If it's the law no one is above it, when will allow these other lines have to change policy by?

I’m suggesting the U.K. MCA are implementing it for UK Headquartered/Registered Cruise Lines.

 

P&O, Cunard, Fred, Saga, Ambassador are U.K. registered cruise lines. RCI, Celebrity, Princess and other Carnival brands are not.

 

I’m also differentiating between where the line is registered and where the ships are.

 

It is possible that with Fred, Saga and Ambassador, being smaller ships, the issues just don’t manifest in the same way/quantities.
 

We know Cunard manage it better than P&O. Do P&Os bigger ships just lead to a significantly bigger problem?

[Megabear2]

4 minutes ago, Victoria2 said:

Megabear2 this can be discussed until blue in the face.

 

We can all have opinions how these new t&cs could be arranged [for want of a better phrase] and how basically unfair it seems and no amount of discussion and sensible theories proffered will change that at the moment. It is what it is.

 

 

It can indeed be discussed and it is now being played out in a more public domain than here and isn't going to go away.  I agree that you and I are polar opposite on this matter but that does not mean either of us cannot voice our opinions when the topic arises.  

 

I have no doubt nothing will change from anything on this board and as I have stated previously it's P&O's ship, their rules, their decisions that count.  Having said that discussion is healthy and sometimes against all the odds these mega corporations eventually give the little man a proper answer.  I would have thought that most who read my posts are fully aware I dislike injustice and large companies trampling on little people who've followed the rules yet still get kicked so I will continue to offer my views.

 

On this one we will have to agree to disagree I'm afraid.

 

[Megabear2]

21 minutes ago, molecrochip said:

We know Cunard manage it better than P&O. Do P&Os bigger ships just lead to a significantly bigger problem?

An interesting thought however some of the affected ships look very much like they are the smaller ones - take out Arcadia's suites and there is a very big void.  Actually looking at Arcadia in isolation may well answer the question of how Cunard manage it better as QV and QE are essentially the same ship in slightly different form.  Cunard customers are used to sailing on smaller vessels, are very much aware of the need to book early to get one of the adapted cabins and overall on those two vessels there appear to be quite substantially fewer mobility scooters being booked in to be used solely for getting around - possibly due to size of the vessel?

 

P&O appear to have invited the world(!) to come along on Britannia, Iona and Arvia regardless of the actual size and logistics of the three vessels and (Iona aside as I've not sailedher) certainly the number of scooters has always seemed far higher on these ships compared to the Queens.  My mother as a manual wheelchair user wanted to sail Britannia but I refused to accompany her due to the size and passenger ratio.  Even going back beyond those 10 years or so we had to book Cunard on launch day and they insisted on an adopted cabin whereas we could have taken one on Britannia as long as the wheelchair fitted through the door.

 

 

Edited 16 hours ago by Megabear2

[Victoria2]

Megabear2 I liked your posts. I agreed with you. We might have differing views on whether a form should be used or not and I am a pragmatist at the moment when it comes to what has happened and going forward, again, at the moment  but  how the heck that translates into polar opposites I have no idea.

I'd say definitely the same side of the fence but with different approaches.

Edited 16 hours ago by Victoria2
approaches

[Megabear2]

27 minutes ago, Victoria2 said:

Megabear2 I liked your posts. I agreed with you. We might have differing views on whether a form should be used or not and I am a pragmatist at the moment when it comes to what has happened and going forward, again, at the moment  but  how the heck that translates into polar opposites I have no idea.

I'd say definitely the same side of the fence but with different approaches.

Yes we agree on what is happening being poor, totally. 

 

My polar opposite comment refers to my non acceptance that the cruise lines are at liberty to do as they wish and nothing can be questioned on whether their "safety" reasons are actually true based on the SOLAS requirements.  If I've read you wrong I apologise, but I read it that you are willing to accept this statement at face value whereas I am a sceptic and think the reasons being given do not stand up to scrutiny.  I call this "big company speak", something I was taught to practice all my working life, ie do as you want with no explanation and if someone questions your motives throw up a lot of flack to mask the situation and eventually everyone will go away and forget it.  

 

Great example is the Maleth Aero fiasco.  Nothing to see here guys, move along please!

[Victoria2]

I accept at the moment it is what it is but apart from deploring this situation, I have no idea what to think other than how unfair it is for those cancelled cruises and how difficult it's going to be going forward.

I genuinely have no idea the whys and wherefores and thought I'd made that clear. I also rather thought my 'at the moment' should also speak for itself .

 

Obviously, not.

 

 

[S1971]

I'm of the opinion that this has nothing to do with SOLAS requirements, full stop, I'm still yet to see anything that has changed in the SOLAS requirements recently that justifies the policy change.

 

Regardless of that, the way Cunard & P&O have rolled this out is absolutely shocking, many, many loyal customers with several cruises booked well in advance have basically had them cancelled for having a disability, no amount of apologies or excuses would ever be enough, fortunately I'm not impacted and my heart goes out to those who are.

 

Problem is it won't bother them as they'll continue to fill their ships.

 

Shocking way to treat people.

Edited 15 hours ago by S1971

[Reanna]

1 hour ago, Megabear2 said:

So do those rules apply to all ships sailing within our waters? If so why aren't Princess, Ambassador, Fred, Saga, Celebrity, RCI and Uncle Tom Cobbly doing the same as the Carnival U.K. companies? Are they supposedly sticking two fingers up and ignoring these new rules or are we going to get a repeat of all this with them?  If it's the law no one is above it, when will allow these other lines have to change policy by?

 

[Megabear2]

14 minutes ago, S1971 said:

I'm of the opinion that this has nothing to do with SOLAS requirements, full stop, I'm still yet to see anything that has changed in the SOLAS requirements recently that justifies the policy change.

 

Regardless of that, the way Cunard & P&O have rolled this out is absolutely shocking, many, many loyal customers with several cruises booked well in advance have basically had them cancelled for having a disability, no amount of apologies or excuses would ever be enough, fortunately I'm not impacted and my heart goes out to those who are.

 

Problem is it won't bother them as they'll continue to fill their ships.

 

Shocking way to treat people.

I still have the sneaky belief it's an insurance requirement following the Britannia near disaster and the QM2 line break.  It's too coincidently close to those two events, particularly being almost a year to the date.  First it was walking sticks being declared, then the mobility scooters in adapted cabins only, then reclassification of the cabins.  I'm not a conspiracy theorist but these coincidences are very much like ones I've seen in other industries over insurance and certification issues.

Edited 15 hours ago by Megabear2