Dogs

[cccole]

1 minute ago, 3rdGenCunarder said:

 

Cunard does have a kennel on Queen Mary 2. I'm not sure about the other Cunard ships. The QM2 kennels are for transatlantics only. I believe it's just cats and dogs. That's all I've seen embarking or disembarking. The service is used mainly by people who are relocating between North America and the UK or Europe. If I had to relocate, I'd want to do that, rather than have a pet in a cage in the hold for such a long flight. 

 

The kennels are at the top, and there is an outside area for excercise. Owners may visit their pets, but the pets are not allowed out and about on the ship. And in answer to the question about abandoning ship, Cunard provides dog and cat life jackets. 

 

Thank you for the details.  I did not read back thru the posts.  Details matter.  Cherie

 

 

[TRLD]

32 minutes ago, cccole said:

I went back to the OPs original statement.  It was not about people having horrendous encounters with dogs on cruise ships but the presence of non service dogs on cruise ships.  The only way a non service dog is on a cruise ship is most probably the owner lied.  Many of us would love to bring our dog(s) on a cruise ship, but we are not going to lie to do it.

 

At least one person questioned posters who observed non service dogs and asked for specific examples of how they knew it was not a service dog.  Several examples were provided.  It doesn't mean that all of us have experienced any of those issues.  But when asked, examples were given.  And many have observed adorable, well behaved non service dogs.  We just wish it was our adorable, well behaved non service dog.  It is an insult to the trained service dogs and their owners when people lie to bring their pet to an environment where they are not allowed.  I think HAL should do a better job.  I think someone mentioned that Cunard lets you bring your pet in a kennel and it remains below deck for the entire cruise.  Sounds like an option.

 

JMO, Cherie 

Again the problem is that there is really no way under existing law for them to do much differently. While behavior can be an indicator it is not an absolute indicator. The trained tasks can be rather wide ranging. I know of one ptsd case where the trained task is to wake the individual by licking his hand when he experiences nightmares at night. 

 

Are there some fakes, certainly. Are there some dogs that meet the criteria while creating the impression of not being a valid service dog also most likely true.

 

The problem again is the law makes it very difficult for a business or cruise line to absolutely detect and enforce. If someone knows the rules they can most likely get around any checks in place. At that point all the ship can do is potentially restrict the dog if it meets the criteria of lack of control or other behaviors assisted in the law.

[3rdGenCunarder]

1 minute ago, cccole said:

Thank you for the details.  I did not read back thru the posts.  Details matter.  Cherie

 

 

 

 

I don't think there were many details, just a mention of it.

 

Interestingly, the only times I've seen service dogs have been on Cunard, not HAL. One was for a diabetic woman. Little thing, a bit overwhelmed by a large cocktail party--band playing, all those feet that might have stepped on it. She might have been better to have it in one of those chest packs, because it couldn't have been paying much attention in that situation. But other times I saw them, the dog was calm.

 

The other one was with a woman who had posted here on a similar thread about 5-6 years ago. I recall some very strong anti-dog sentiment on that thread. I ended up behind her in the queue to change dining reservations. Lovely dog, very quiet, Because of some comments she had made about her travels, I figured it was her, and I was right. She said it's hard work to travel with a dog, in her case, a large lab. The owner has to supply all the food. And they brought along his bed.  This was a 10 day cruise IIRC, and a large dog eats a lot in that time. Some people with a child came up and wanted to pet the dog, but she explained he was working. Then she said that he would have some free time that afternoon and said where they would be and that the child could meet him then. 

[cccole]

TRLD and 3rdGenCunarder - Both of your posts are helpful, thank you.  

 

I'm not sure I agree that there is not much a business can do if someone lies about having a service animal.  Answering 2 questions honestly is not difficult, and if it is determined that an owner has lied there should be consequences.   Probably not going to happen.  And I imagine the most difficult tasks to see are those where the support animal senses abnormalities like blood pressure, etc.  However I think that these support animals, because they accompany the owner everywhere, are behaviorally well trained.  I'm sure it is not something staff want to deal with though.

 

I love the story of the woman with the lab.  It seems like there are places and times when service animals have the opportunity to take a break.  That child must have been thrilled.

 

Thank you both for your posts.  I think it is just frustrating to many of us that the "fakes" think the rules don't apply to them.  But that's life.  Cherie 

 

 

[chengkp75]

46 minutes ago, 3rdGenCunarder said:

And in answer to the question about abandoning ship, Cunard provides dog and cat life jackets. 

And, while that may be great PR for the pet owners, I can guarantee that those pets, or service animals will not be evacuated in the same lifeboat as the owner, and will be loaded dead last in one or two liferafts, after it has been determined that all humans have evacuated, and providing that the surplus 25% of lifesaving equipment onboard is not required for humans.

[TRLD]

11 minutes ago, cccole said:

TRLD and 3rdGenCunarder - Both of your posts are helpful, thank you.  

 

I'm not sure I agree that there is not much a business can do if someone lies about having a service animal.  Answering 2 questions honestly is not difficult, and if it is determined that an owner has lied there should be consequences.   Probably not going to happen.  And I imagine the most difficult tasks to see are those where the support animal senses abnormalities like blood pressure, etc.  However I think that these support animals, because they accompany the owner everywhere, are behaviorally well trained.  I'm sure it is not something staff want to deal with though.

 

I love the story of the woman with the lab.  It seems like there are places and times when service animals have the opportunity to take a break.  That child must have been thrilled.

 

Thank you both for your posts.  I think it is just frustrating to many of us that the "fakes" think the rules don't apply to them.  But that's life.  Cherie 

 

 

Frustrating to me as well, unfortunately that is how the law is written.

[TRLD]

From inquiries I have made over the years to some of the sponsors of the law the reason for not requiring certifications or professional training is cost or time. The charities that provide service dogs either free or at very low cost are usually overwhelmed by requests and have long lead times. If you pay to have one trained it can cost thousands even 10s of thousands in some cases.

[Destiny0315]

19 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

And, while that may be great PR for the pet owners, I can guarantee that those pets, or service animals will not be evacuated in the same lifeboat as the owner, and will be loaded dead last in one or two liferafts, after it has been determined that all humans have evacuated, and providing that the surplus 25% of lifesaving equipment onboard is not required for humans.

A perfect time in this thread to interject this story about the fate of the Titanic's dogs as we approach the 112th anniversary of it's sinking.

https://www.akc.org/expert-advice/news/remembering-dogs-titanic/

[cccole]

13 minutes ago, TRLD said:

From inquiries I have made over the years to some of the sponsors of the law the reason for not requiring certifications or professional training is cost or time. The charities that provide service dogs either free or at very low cost are usually overwhelmed by requests and have long lead times. If you pay to have one trained it can cost thousands even 10s of thousands in some cases.

But for someone traveling with a service animal it has already been trained by a professional or themselves.  You have not just put a vest on it.  You are just asked two questions.  (1)Is the dog a service animal required because of a disability? (2) What work or task has the dog been trained to perform?  Staff are not allowed to asked for documentation or demonstrations.  You are not required to have a professionally trained dog. I also think that most people with professionally trained service dogs from charities have certification that the dog has been trained for the function they will perform.  It's a piece of paper.  Cherie

[TRLD]

3 minutes ago, cccole said:

But for someone traveling with a service animal it has already been trained by a professional or themselves.  You have not just put a vest on it.  You are just asked two questions.  (1)Is the dog a service animal required because of a disability? (2) What work or task has the dog been trained to perform?  Staff are not allowed to asked for documentation or demonstrations.  You are not required to have a professionally trained dog. I also think that most people with professionally trained service dogs from charities have certification that the dog has been trained for the function they will perform.  It's a piece of paper.  Cherie

No. The charity  i work with usually does not provide such documentation unless 1. the individual request because of a country they are traveling to or 2. There is an ongoing legal case where it has been requested by either side.

 

Providing such documents would be not be productive because the law in the US states that they cannot be requested or required.

 

As part of my volunteer work I have had to contact property management companies to educate them when they have tried to block one of the individuals we have provided a service dog to from renting.

[cccole]

A piece of paper cannot be required or requested but a piece of paper that says a service animal has been trained as a service animal is usually not a big deal and would prevent you having to interact with management companies.  I have only done volunteer work with agencies that have a graduation for service animals.  You and I have different experiences.  The piece of paper is not required but it is easy to print and can make life a lot easier.   If a service animal is trained by it's owner it is different.  But I travel with a lot of printed "stuff".   Cherie   

[KruisinKath]

10 hours ago, Wehwalt said:

No one is following anyone around. That was something invented by one poster and used to label anyone who disagreed with them, even changing their post after they have been replied to. You and another poster have somewhat gleefully leapt upon what no one ever proposed to do. Check the thread. It's something invented by people who have taken a most definite position in this thread. And that position is not mine.

 

I welcome well-informed discussion based on the law as it applies to cruise ships, as we were given by a greatly respected cruiser much earlier in this thread. Instead, we are given posts by some here which don't really seem intended to inform, but to disinform, not to forward the debate but to shut it down, posts in anger, not in sense. Too bad.

I agree. I thought there were some quite good facts given as most people attempted to better understand the landscape, rather than dilute the meaning of the thread with misdirected jabs.  Overall, some excellent data to ponder that may help any one of us in future potential interactions. 

[TRLD]

17 minutes ago, cccole said:

A piece of paper cannot be required or requested but a piece of paper that says a service animal has been trained as a service animal is usually not a big deal and would prevent you having to interact with management companies.  I have only done volunteer work with agencies that have a graduation for service animals.  You and I have different experiences.  The piece of paper is not required but it is easy to print and can make life a lot easier.   If a service animal is trained by it's owner it is different.  But I travel with a lot of printed "stuff".   Cherie   

Problem is then you create more problems for someone that might have a valid service dog, but does not have a piece of paper that the law says one can not ask for or require.  Better to educate instead of counter productively  placate.

[cccole]

40 minutes ago, TRLD said:

Problem is then you create more problems for someone that might have a valid service dog, but does not have a piece of paper that the law says one can not ask for or require.  Better to educate instead of counter productively  placate.

We disagree on this.  A piece of paper makes it really easy.  You are right, nothing can be required, but many times everyone does not know the law.  Instead of requiring intervention why not just provide documentation?  This diminishes the number of times that a person with disabilities is embarrassed and denied access and someone needs to intervene. Why not provide the person without documentation for their service animal or a copy of the ADA regs?  Education is preferred but education is not always provided to those who need it.  If documentation is available why not use it and help out the staff where you are traveling or eating.  If you have a self trained animal why not carry a copy of the ADA rules in case you are asked?  You do not have to have formal documentation or training for your support animal to carry a copy of the ADA rules and help out those that are willing to help you and may not have your education re ADA. This has gotten way off topic and I think we have both expressed our opinions.  Cherie  

Edited April 12 by cccole

[chengkp75]

Another main reason given for not requiring documentation is that those who are disabled do not want to have to disclose their disability.  People who get handicap placards have to disclose their disability to their doctor, but then HIPAA means that no one else needs to know why the placard was granted.

 

I have also heard of cases where a family pet learns to alert for diabetes or seizures, and then is considered as a service animal, but has no formal training or documentation.

[TRLD]

13 minutes ago, cccole said:

We disagree on this.  A piece of paper makes it really easy.  You are right, nothing can be required, but many times everyone does not know the law.  Instead of requiring intervention why not just provide documentation?  This diminishes the number of times that a person with disabilities is embarrassed and denied access and someone needs to intervene. Why not provide the person without documentation for their service animal or a copy of the ADA regs?  Education is preferred but education is not always provided to those who need it.  This has gotten way off topic and I think we have both expressed our opinions.  Cherie  

Not really without an official registration process, all it creates is another piece of paper that one can buy or make themselves. Usually if someone wants to show you a piece of paper to "prove" that they have a valid service dog, most likely it is fake and provided by the ever popular sellers of fake service dog items.

 

All for a piece of paper that the law is is not needed, that cannot be asked for.

 

 

[cccole]

You and I have very different experiences with service animals.  Happy cruising, Cherie

[HappyInVan]

1 hour ago, TRLD said:

Providing such documents would be not be productive because the law in the US states that they cannot be requested or required.

 

 

This is what puzzles me. It must be obvious that a guide dog is required by the visually impaired. So, why the secrecy?

 

Similarly, someone traveling with a medical condition should want the ship's officers to know about the condition. Certainly, be candid on the medical questionnaire. It might save your life. 

 

For PTSD survivors, thank you for your service! See you at the veteran get-together.

[TRLD]

1 hour ago, HappyInVan said:

 

This is what puzzles me. It must be obvious that a guide dog is required by the visually impaired. So, why the secrecy?

 

Similarly, someone traveling with a medical condition should want the ship's officers to know about the condition. Certainly, be candid on the medical questionnaire. It might save your life. 

 

For PTSD survivors, thank you for your service! See you at the veteran get-together.

Why not require everyone with a handicap placard to list the medical condition that allows them to get a placard.

 

Pretty much because it is no one else's business.

 

 

Not about secrecy it is about privacy of medical records, and it's about what the law does and does not require, and the protections to those under the act. The act not only does not require documentation of professional training, it does not require professional training, only that the dog has been trained to do an applicable task in support of the diagnosed handicap. There is not registration process, no official record keeper, no defined standard of what a certificate of training should look like and the information it should contain.

 

An individual can provide information about their handicap to the ships medical team if they so choose, but the ships medical can not require them to tell them. There are cases where an individual needs to communicate if they require certain medical devices, just as they have to notify the ship before they bring a service dog on board, but in the case of a service dog the ship is limited to the 2 questions that are legal under the law.

 

Sure a guide dog is pretty obvious, but a lot are not. Even the blind have the same protections as the less obvious.

Edited April 13 by TRLD

[cccole]

No one is asking for what you suggest in your first paragraph.  Please.  Let's agree to disagree about whether someone does or does not want to make it easier for staff to accommodate them. Carrying a copy of the ADA regs only helps to educate and does not divulge personal medical information.     Cherie

[TRLD]

3 minutes ago, cccole said:

No one is asking for what you suggest in your first paragraph.  Please.  Let's agree to disagree about whether someone does or does not want to make it easier for staff to accommodate them. Carrying a copy of the ADA regs only helps to educate and does not divulge personal medical information.     Cherie

Certainly but that would be the equivalent to require someone to disclose their handicap that requires a service dog or to ask then for documentation of training 

 

In both cases they are protected under the law, just as the person with the placard is protected.

 

You were not saying above that they should carry a copy of the ada regs you were saying above that they should have documentation of service dog training and be willing to show it if it solves problems

[cccole]

Wrong.  In post 270 I did recommend carrying a copy of the ADA regs and please read post #264.  Cherie

Edited April 13 by cccole

[TRLD]

4 minutes ago, cccole said:

Wrong. Read post #264.  Cherie

I did you may want to reread it.

 

Actually your third line says instead of providing intervention just provide documentation

 

which clearly implies that they should be showing documentation of training if they have it.

 

Only later did you say that those without documentation could be provided copies of the regs 

 

Which implies that if they have documentation they should be willing to show it.

 

You did not say to provide regs to everyone instead of documentstion

[TRLD]

2 hours ago, cccole said:

We disagree on this.  A piece of paper makes it really easy.  You are right, nothing can be required, but many times everyone does not know the law.  Instead of requiring intervention why not just provide documentation?  This diminishes the number of times that a person with disabilities is embarrassed and denied access and someone needs to intervene. Why not provide the person without documentation for their service animal or a copy of the ADA regs?  Education is preferred but education is not always provided to those who need it.  If documentation is available why not use it and help out the staff where you are traveling or eating.  If you have a self trained animal why not carry a copy of the ADA rules in case you are asked?  You do not have to have formal documentation or training for your support animal to carry a copy of the ADA rules and help out those that are willing to help you and may not have your education re ADA. This has gotten way off topic and I think we have both expressed our opinions.  Cherie  

Here is your post 264. your post 270 came after My post 269 where I pointed out the legal equivalent of the handicap placard to the issue of service dog documentation.

 

Note the line Instead of requiring intervention why not require documentation

 

Later on you say if you have documentation why not use it to help out the staff...

 

Pretty clear you are saying that wven though the law forbids one asking those with service animal teaining documentation should be willing to provide it to help out.

 

That is basically the legal equivalent of asking someone with a placard to carry documentation to help out and as you put it avoid embarrasment if confronted about their right to have a placard.

The mention of ada guidelines  was as you put it to be carried for those with a self trained dog or for when they did not have documentation. 

 

Again the law is clear they do not need documentation, and they cannot be legally asked for it.

 

 

Edited April 13 by TRLD

[cccole]

Thanks TRLD,  I did not say "require documentation" but I did say "provide documentation." You are so correct, as I have also stated, you do not need documentation, but if you have it...why not?  It helps those who are not educated re the ADA.  Our American Staffordshire Terrier is now looking forward to his first cruise.  My husband lost sight in his left eye this year, has no peripheral vision, so instead of me being his left hand we have our wonderful self trained service dog.  We will have documentation, because it will make it so much easier for those processing us thru airports and cruise terminals.  And, if anyone questions it we will have a copy of the ADA regs which I suggest anyone who needs them have in hand.  Is bringing our trained pet with us necessary? no.  But you make it sound like why not?  Why should we pay $1000 a week to have someone stay at the house when we're good to go?  We won't even be lying.  Thank you for misunderstanding my posts re documentation and traveling with a copy of the ADA regs that educate staff in airports and cruise ports.   Zion is awesome.  When he walks people ask us to wait a second so they can get him his treats.  I don't think we will bring the dog stroller and bring him into the dining room because that may be inconsiderate to guests but he thanks you.   Cherie   

Edited April 13 by cccole