Rare stevenr597 Posted July 8 #126 Share Posted July 8 (edited) 21 hours ago, BermudaBound2014 said: So it's your personal opinion that HAL, Princess, Celebrity, and Cunard are 'better' or "more upscale' than NCL, Carnival or RCL. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. I can respect that. If my inclusion of the word "better" upsets some people, let me put it this way; as I have said, they market to different segments or crowds. Sort of like Texas Roadhouse as compared to Flemmings. Both are enjoyable restaurants, but they do try to market to different groups. My apologies to the Texas Roadhouse fans, I mean no insult. Edited July 8 by stevenr597 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare stevenr597 Posted July 8 #127 Share Posted July 8 22 hours ago, BermudaBound2014 said: So Still respectfully disagree. You claimed that HAL is thought to be 'better' (your words not mine) and differentiated from mass market lines but I'm only seeing three examples you provided of what makes HAL more upscale (refined crowds, less crowded, better entertainment and food). Food is way too subjective (but again, lobster is still complimentary on Carnival lol). Personally, I didn't find HAL's food significantly better than any cruise line I've sailed but I have the palette of a toddler. You said that HAL tends to be less crowded. Some truth to that with HAL's smaller ships, but HAL's space ratio for the Pinnacle is not significantly lower. I would say that the K'dam 'felt' more crowded than either Carnival or NCL ship I was on, largely because it does not disperse crowds well. Example; there are only 5 places available for lunch compared to 12 options on Celebration. So, yes the Carnival Celebration has a slightly lower space ratio, but it moves people into different areas of the ship much better. Same with evening entertainment. HAL offers 3 lounges with entertainment (two on non-pinnacle) compared to 6-10 on other mainstream lines; thus forcing more people into less venues simply due to lack of choices. Ironically, the Oasis class (largest in the inventory) feels the least crowded of any ship I have ever sailed (and I have been sailing since 1987). I firmly disagree that HAL's entertainment is better than any mass market line. I think HAL entertainment offerings are bottom of the barrel. It's clear to me that HAL's entertainment budget is significantly lower and it shows in both quality and quantity of entertainment choices. Is the predominant basis for your entire claim that HAL is more upscale is because HAL's passengers are "more refined" and somehow that makes HAL more upscale? I'm just not following. While you make some valid points, I still stand by my classification as to mass market compared to near luxury or near premium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kay S Posted July 8 #128 Share Posted July 8 1 hour ago, TRLD said: I think on Oceania you may not become more refined, but probably more sedate instead. That works for me. I cruise to relax, and on those mega ships with all the activity (and people) I don't think relaxed is what I would be. 🙂 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare BermudaBound2014 Posted July 8 #129 Share Posted July 8 (edited) 1 hour ago, stevenr597 said: If my inclusion of the word "better" upsets some people, let me put it this way; as I have said, they market to different segments or crowds. Sort of like Texas Roadhouse as compared to Flemmings. Both are enjoyable restaurants, but they do try to market to different groups. My apologies to the Texas Roadhouse fans, I mean no insult. Sorry, can't let that lie. IMO that is a ridiculous comparison. Flemmings and Texas Roadhouse not only market differently, they are priced SIGNIFICANTLY different. Not the case when you compare HAL to NCL or Carnival. In fact, using your analogy, HAL could be aligned with texas roadhouse, as lately HAL often priced cheaper than NCL or Carnival. In terms of quality, overall there is just not much difference between NCL, Carnival, or Holland America. Using the steak house comparison you are suggesting there is a difference in the quality experience onboard. I have asked nicely (twice) for you to provide a concrete difference between the product offered. I took time to provide 5 specific examples where I believe a more 'upscale' experience is offered on both NCL and Carnival. Since you still want to to make the claim that HAL is a better product (which you did with the Flemmings comparison), it's only fair you provide the same evidence.. The only example you have given is that the people on HAL are more 'refined' (your words). I might agree with this somewhat, but would suggest that the refinement comes with age. HAL demographics are much older. The vast majority are in bed by 11 (the is ghost like by midnight). Don't get me wrong, I met some of the very best people on HAL, but generally the atmosphere is much calmer (read refined). That does not equate to upscale. Please provide a concrete example where the HAL experience on board is significantly better than NCL or CCL (other than fellow passengers). As mentioned, I took the time to provide 5 specific areas where NCL and CCL offered, to me, a more upscale experience. It's only fair you do the same. Edited July 8 by BermudaBound2014 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare Gail & Marty sailing away Posted July 8 #130 Share Posted July 8 6 minutes ago, Kay S said: That works for me. I cruise to relax, and on those mega ships with all the activity (and people) I don't think relaxed is what I would be. 🙂 Those mega ships are great for Grand kids and their parents. We go as baby sister's 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare BermudaBound2014 Posted July 8 #131 Share Posted July 8 2 minutes ago, Gail & Marty sailing away said: Those mega ships are great for Grand kids and their parents......... and retirees who still enjoy a good water slide and dancing until the wee hours 🙂 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare Gail & Marty sailing away Posted July 8 #132 Share Posted July 8 3 minutes ago, BermudaBound2014 said: Sorry, can't let that lie. IMO that is a ridiculous comparison. Flemmings and Texas Roadhouse not only market differently, they are priced SIGNIFICANTLY different. Not the case when you compare HAL to NCL or Carnival. In fact, using your analogy, HAL could be aligned with texas roadhouse, as lately HAL often priced cheaper than NCL or Carnival. In terms of quality, overall there is just not much difference between NCL, Carnival, or Holland America. Using the steak house comparison you are suggesting there is a difference in the quality experience onboard. I have asked nicely (twice) for you to provide a concrete difference between the product offered. I took time to provide 5 specific examples where I believe a more 'upscale' experience is offered on both NCL and Carnival. Since you still want to to make the claim that HAL is a better product (which you did with the Flemmings comparison), it's only fair you provide the same evidence.. The only example you have given is that the people on HAL are more 'refined' (your words). I might agree with this somewhat, but would suggest that the refinement comes with age. HAL demographics are much older. The vast majority are in bed by 11 (the is ghost like by midnight). Don't get me wrong, I met some of the very best people on HAL, but generally the atmosphere is much calmer (read refined). Please provide a concrete example where the HAL experience on board is significantly better than NCL or CCL (other than fellow passengers). As mentioned, I took the time to provide 5 specific areas where NCL and CCL offered, to me, a more upscale experience. It's only fair you do the same. There is one example I think you might agree between the NCL CCL. Holland, The Staff. On Holland is different. 9 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare BermudaBound2014 Posted July 8 #133 Share Posted July 8 Just now, Gail & Marty sailing away said: There is one example I think you might agree between the NCL CCL. Holland, The Staff. On Holland is different. I absolutely agree on this (and mentioned it above more than once). Post covid, the staff does not appear to be spread as thin on HAL. As a result, I experienced excellent personalized service in many areas. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare Gail & Marty sailing away Posted July 8 #134 Share Posted July 8 (edited) 4 minutes ago, BermudaBound2014 said: I absolutely agree on this (and mentioned it above more than once). Post covid, the staff does not appear to be spread as thin on HAL. As a result, I experienced excellent personalized service in many areas. The crew mostly are happy to be on the ship with a job. There are some small things that might not be important to some people Crew personnel benefits on Holland The quality of the linens The selection at Lido There are no made carts only on the Pinnacle class ships When you ask for something they try to accommodate you. Longer Voyages ( not bus routes) Edited July 8 by Gail & Marty sailing away 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare BermudaBound2014 Posted July 8 #135 Share Posted July 8 5 minutes ago, Gail & Marty sailing away said: The crew mostly are happy to be on the ship with a job. I have never found crew unhappy on NCL or CCL (or Celebrity or RCL). I did find some unhappy crew on MSC. In general, I don't believe the crew are any 'nicer', "happier", or more professional on HAL (my experience), but the service overall is better because there are more crew. I believe they do undergo more training also ( @Mary229 can you confirm?). For example, on Carnival and NCL your room is only serviced once a day because they have reduced cabin steward staffing post covid (although ironically ours was serviced twice each day last January). That is a tangible difference on HAL. I also mentioned complimentary room service as something tangible on HAL that is actually better or more 'upscale' than the other lines. There are lots of things which are subjective (like food, and crew happiness, etc...), but I tried to list 5 things off that top of my head which are not subjective and provide evidence to back my claim. In the end, it's all a matter of personal opinion, but I do think it's fair to ask for evidence to back claims when absolute statements or poor analogies are given. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare stevenr597 Posted July 8 #136 Share Posted July 8 On 7/7/2024 at 11:41 AM, TRLD said: There are pretty clear lines by a number of factors such as %industry revenue/% industry passenger ratio, inclusions, ship size, crew passenger ratio, that pretty clearly delineate the boundaries between mass market, premium, and luxury. Just like there are variation in focus adult vs family, North America vs UK vs Germany vs EU, etc. There are lots of terms that cruise lines like to apply in their marketing. Agree there are many classifications. I would still differentiate Holland America, Princess, Cunard, and Celebrity, from mainstream lines such as RCCL, MCR, MSC. To make the subject even more complicated, it is thought that Azamara and Oceania are more upscale, but not at the level of true luxury lines. One can argue that Disney "is in a class, all of its own." Again, nothing negative about any of these ships. When my children were younger, we used to sail several times/year are RCCL, and Carnival. We then "moved up to Princess and Celebrity." We had sailed on H.A. once, but plan to take a more extensive cruise on one of their newer ships next year. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare Mary229 Posted July 8 #137 Share Posted July 8 40 minutes ago, BermudaBound2014 said: training also ( @Mary229 can you confirm?). Pre pandemic HAL had their own institutes in Indonesia and I think also in the Philippines to train personnel. I don’t know if that is still the case. It did make a major difference, a difference I have not noticed in the new recruits. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kay S Posted July 8 #138 Share Posted July 8 1 hour ago, Gail & Marty sailing away said: Those mega ships are great for Grand kids and their parents. We go as baby sister's Baby sisters? 🙂 I agree that the big ships are good for kids. Most of my Carnival trips have been with the grandkids. However, I wasn't there to relax. Chill, eat, read and nap, those are my cruising goals nowadays. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeh10641 Posted July 8 #139 Share Posted July 8 1 hour ago, BermudaBound2014 said: Sorry, can't let that lie. IMO that is a ridiculous comparison. Flemmings and Texas Roadhouse not only market differently, they are priced SIGNIFICANTLY different. Not the case when you compare HAL to NCL or Carnival. In fact, using your analogy, HAL could be aligned with texas roadhouse, as lately HAL often priced cheaper than NCL or Carnival. In terms of quality, overall there is just not much difference between NCL, Carnival, or Holland America. Using the steak house comparison you are suggesting there is a difference in the quality experience onboard. I have asked nicely (twice) for you to provide a concrete difference between the product offered. I took time to provide 5 specific examples where I believe a more 'upscale' experience is offered on both NCL and Carnival. Since you still want to to make the claim that HAL is a better product (which you did with the Flemmings comparison), it's only fair you provide the same evidence.. The only example you have given is that the people on HAL are more 'refined' (your words). I might agree with this somewhat, but would suggest that the refinement comes with age. HAL demographics are much older. The vast majority are in bed by 11 (the is ghost like by midnight). Don't get me wrong, I met some of the very best people on HAL, but generally the atmosphere is much calmer (read refined). That does not equate to upscale. Please provide a concrete example where the HAL experience on board is significantly better than NCL or CCL (other than fellow passengers). As mentioned, I took the time to provide 5 specific areas where NCL and CCL offered, to me, a more upscale experience. It's only fair you do the same. Here one major difference between HAL and many Carnival ships. When was the last time you heard about a drunken brawl on a HAL ship? Almost monthly there is an altercation on a Carnival ship. Granted, Carnival has many more ships with larger passenger totals. And they call themselves the "Fun Ships". Jim 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare BermudaBound2014 Posted July 8 #140 Share Posted July 8 (edited) 7 minutes ago, jeh10641 said: Here one major difference between HAL and many Carnival ships. When was the last time you heard about a drunken brawl on a HAL ship? Almost monthly there is an altercation on a Carnival ship. Granted, Carnival has many more ships with larger passenger totals. And they call themselves the "Fun Ships". Jim That is very true, and a concrete example. Sadly, most of those altercations happen on older ships (that cost less per day) than the newer excel ships. And it is true that Carnival knows how to bring the fun which probably leads to some altercations. But this is referencing passenger demographics again and I have stated that HAL passengers are likely more refined (largely due to age). I can agree that refined could be classified as more 'upscale'. But again, this is only one example. Edited July 8 by BermudaBound2014 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare Mary229 Posted July 8 #141 Share Posted July 8 7 minutes ago, jeh10641 said: Here one major difference between HAL and many Carnival ships. When was the last time you heard about a drunken brawl on a HAL ship? Almost monthly there is an altercation on a Carnival ship. Granted, Carnival has many more ships with larger passenger totals. And they call themselves the "Fun Ships". Jim I think those altercations are mainly on short weekend booze cruises. If HAL offered those type of cheap cruises it would occur there too. It is the product not the cruise line. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRLD Posted July 8 #142 Share Posted July 8 1 hour ago, stevenr597 said: Agree there are many classifications. I would still differentiate Holland America, Princess, Cunard, and Celebrity, from mainstream lines such as RCCL, MCR, MSC. To make the subject even more complicated, it is thought that Azamara and Oceania are more upscale, but not at the level of true luxury lines. One can argue that Disney "is in a class, all of its own." Again, nothing negative about any of these ships. When my children were younger, we used to sail several times/year are RCCL, and Carnival. We then "moved up to Princess and Celebrity." We had sailed on H.A. once, but plan to take a more extensive cruise on one of their newer ships next year. That is why Azamara and Oceania are considered to be premium not luxury lines. While you consider that you moved up. What you did was move from family focused main stream to adult focused mainstream. Disney with its pricing model is basically a family focused premium line. A slot in which they are unique. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeh10641 Posted July 8 #143 Share Posted July 8 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Mary229 said: I think those altercations are mainly on short weekend booze cruises. If HAL offered those type of cheap cruises it would occur there too. It is the product not the cruise line. Royal has some short cruises on its largest ships. Many fewer fights are reported on Royal ships. Royal has a few older ships (read cheaper) ships in its fleet. Not offering cheap cruises is one more reason they are considered more upscale. Jim Edited July 8 by jeh10641 Missing thought Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare BermudaBound2014 Posted July 8 #144 Share Posted July 8 (edited) 1 hour ago, stevenr597 said: Again, nothing negative about any of these ships. When my children were younger, we used to sail several times/year are RCCL, and Carnival. We then "moved up to Princess and Celebrity." We had sailed on H.A. once, but plan to take a more extensive cruise on one of their newer ships next year. Perhaps this explains your inability to provide concrete examples. Your experiences with RCCL and carnival maybe outdated, and if I read that correct, you have only sailed on HAL once? How long ago was that? lol I do believe there was a difference in HAL when I first sailed HAL 10 years ago, but those differences have eroded away while lines like NCL, Carnival, RCL have totally upped their game in terms of 'upscale' offerings onboard. HAL is no Flemings anymore than NCL is Texas Road House. HAL is a mass market cruise line as defined by the industry. Not substantially different than the others. It does provide excellent itineraries at very competitive pricing and that's enough to draw me in. Edited July 8 by BermudaBound2014 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare LAFFNVEGAS Posted July 8 #145 Share Posted July 8 There are several comments made about HAL having the best crew and while I will not disagree "Some" are very good but they are not any better than Norwegian. I personally find the crew on NCL to be far superior to any of my recent cruises on HAL and Princess and Windstar. Heaven forbid if I would mention on FB Windstar Group that their crew was the same as HAL lol. But trust me they were not better by a long shot. But with all the posts I believe we are starting to beat a dead horse. Many making their comments have NOT been on other cruise lines such as NCL, Carnival or Royal in recent years. Many here or loyal to HAL and probably has been 10+ years since they sailed some other line. Or maybe the neighbor down the street took a cruise 2 years ago on a 3 day cruise on Carnival and had a terrible time. Those of us who have cruised and experience other cruise lines in the past 6 to 12 months do have first hand experience, those commenting who have not cruised other cruise lines in the last 6 to 12 months are simply stating an opinion of hearsay. We will not change each others minds. I also do not think one can compare any three day booze cruise to a regular 7+ day cruise on HAL as well as it is not just Carnival with fights. One just needs to google Fight on Royal Caribbean ship and you get numerous Reddit and Youtube links, that is just a common thing you will find on any short booze cruise. As for service I personally have seen a decline in service from the HAL crew over the years, they too are spread much thinner than in the past which that has been discussed quite a bit here on the HAL board. How soon we forget some of these discussions. I think we will just need to agree to disagree. 8 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare stevenr597 Posted July 8 #146 Share Posted July 8 1 hour ago, TRLD said: That is why Azamara and Oceania are considered to be premium not luxury lines. While you consider that you moved up. What you did was move from family focused main stream to adult focused mainstream. Disney with its pricing model is basically a family focused premium line. A slot in which they are unique. Finally, I believe that you are now saying what I said at the beginning of the discussion. There are indeed different classes or categories of ships in which the focus is directed towards certain segments of the traveling populations. At the top with have the Premium Lines. At the bottom (no disrespect to these lines) are the mass market lines. In between there are a variety of lines with a variety of classifications. That does not make one group “better” than another, just different which appeals to different segments. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare stevenr597 Posted July 8 #147 Share Posted July 8 Hopefully this article may help to clear up any "misunderstandings." Exploring Cruise Line Categories: From Mass-Market to Ultra-Luxury - Sophisticated Travel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRLD Posted July 8 #148 Share Posted July 8 8 minutes ago, stevenr597 said: Finally, I believe that you are now saying what I said at the beginning of the discussion. There are indeed different classes or categories of ships in which the focus is directed towards certain segments of the traveling populations. At the top with have the Premium Lines. At the bottom (no disrespect to these lines) are the mass market lines. In between there are a variety of lines with a variety of classifications. That does not make one group “better” than another, just different which appeals to different segments. Actually the top are the luxury lines such as Regent or Crystal. These are lines the a %revenue/%passenger ratio above 6. They are all inclusive, with high crew to passenger ratios. Luxury lines have ship sizes below 1000 passengers. The you have the premium such as Oceania, Azamara and Viking. They tend to have a %revenue/%passenger ratio in the 4 to 6 range As with the luxury lines the premium lines are tend to smaller this sizes mostly below 1000 but some newer build may be in the 1000 to 1500 range. Mass market lines have larger ship size, new builds all over 2000 in the adult focused mass market and over 4000 in family focused. Family focused are larger, but tend to also have a much wider range of activities and features to appeal to all age groups. Mass market lines also have a lower %revenue/%passenger ratio below 3 reflecting their lower revenue per passenger. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare stevenr597 Posted July 8 #149 Share Posted July 8 (edited) 1 minute ago, TRLD said: Actually the top are the luxury lines such as Regent or Crystal. These are lines the a %revenue/%passenger ratio above 6. They are all inclusive, with high crew to passenger ratios. Luxury lines have ship sizes below 1000 passengers. The you have the premium such as Oceania, Azamara and Viking. They tend to have a %revenue/%passenger ratio in the 4 to 6 range As with the luxury lines the premium lines are tend to smaller this sizes mostly below 1000 but some newer build may be in the 1000 to 1500 range. Mass market lines have larger ship size, new builds all over 2000 in the adult focused mass market and over 4000 in family focused. Family focused are larger, but tend to also have a much wider range of activities and features to appeal to all age groups. Mass market lines also have a lower %revenue/%passenger ratio below 3 reflecting their lower revenue per passenger. Hopefully this article should help to clear up any misunderstanding. Exploring Cruise Line Categories: From Mass-Market to Ultra-Luxury - Sophisticated Travel Edited July 8 by stevenr597 Additional comment 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRLD Posted July 8 #150 Share Posted July 8 (edited) 4 minutes ago, stevenr597 said: Hopefully this article may help to clear up any "misunderstandings." Exploring Cruise Line Categories: From Mass-Market to Ultra-Luxury - Sophisticated Travel The article is more a sales piece than a reflection of how the industry is grouped by the analysts that follow the industry. It is similar to some of the puff pieces like cruise line marketing departments that like to put out claiming that they are premium or luxury. Edited July 8 by TRLD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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