Nieuw Amsterdam Group Booking - HUGE - Eliminates fixed dining and cuts open seating

A rather simple assumption that more costly is better.

Fair enough, but of course we have a lot more to go on with regard to those cruise lines. So let's turn it around: What are you looking for in a cruise line that you feel Holland America doesn't serve? I suspect at least one of these newer cruise lines will serve all those needs, were you willing to pay their fare... but let's find out.

 

In this case, some say Not. Some of our HAL cruisers went to Oceania and returned happily to HAL. they were disappointed with the product.

But returning to Holland America indicates that they determined Holland America was a product that would please them (unless you're saying they were irrational buyers), so that's not really what we're talking about.

 

And don't forget what I also wrote:

Now is it possible that nothing would please you? Sure. Sometimes we want things that are so unique to our own preferences, or want things to cost less than they're worth to many others, that nothing would please us. However, every grade of service is serviced with offerings priced commensurate with value.

That cannot be over-emphasized.

Fair enough, but of course we have a lot more to go on with regard to those cruise lines. So let's turn it around: What are you looking for in a cruise line that you feel Holland America doesn't serve? I suspect at least one of these newer cruise lines will serve all those needs, were you willing to pay their fare... but let's find out.

 

But returning to Holland America indicates that they determined Holland America was a product that would please them (unless you're saying they were irrational buyers), so that's not really what we're talking about.

 

And don't forget what I also wrote: That cannot be over-emphasized.

 

YOU should not choose to ignore the fact some who are expressing dissatisfaction with HAL sometimes lately, sailed happily with HAL literally dozens and dozens of times. Clearly they sere satisfied or they would not have kept returning. but did so because they were very happy with their cruises Not legitiamate to ignore that IMO. Toimply it is impossible to please some of the people dismisess any diminishment of the product on HAL's part

Edited March 24, 2017 by sail7seas

.......

 

Now is it possible that nothing would please you? ........

 

An unfounded and unnecessary statement. HAL for decades has pleased a lot of people through thick and thin. HAL simply needs to re-work their large-group issues. Or get better, more well-rounded defenders of this change in policy.

Yes, of couse, I Can b ut I will not. I feel I wish to 'go full circle.'

Hi Sail 7 Seas,

Don't forget that the first half of our cruise was lovely in every way. I wish you the same. You have earned it.

bUU, unfortunately, I think your second paragraph in 0823AM post really sums it up. Still, it is very disappointing. Going back to the original post, do believe there was some unfairness. a compromise would be for HAL to limit the size of the groups. The 700 on our cruise was fairly manageable. Oh well, we can always hope.

Really? So far no one has proposed a way to do that.

 

It is such a throwaway comment that, to use someone's own words, "there is no reason to even" grant it that much credence. This is one balance struck between customer focus and profitability. Is it the right one? All objective signs (profitability, revenue growth, remarkable growth in capacity, etc.) are "yes", while many subjective feelings say "no". The direct and overtly expressed unwillingness to grant that decisions that disappoint customers can be the right decision for the service provider stifles any chance of there being discussion; it makes it seem as if some folks just want a thread that embraces just one perspective, the one they happen to hold.

 

I don't recall a single proposal that took into consideration the objectives of the cruise lines and the group organizers. Lots of proposals that would satisfy non-group passengers, Any proposal with a realistic chance of being adopted must be acceptable to the lines and the organizers not just the non-group passengers.

 

I really doubt that such a solution exists. It would seem that if it did, some cruise line would have adopted it and we would have noticed how much better their operations would work.

YOU SWHOULD NOT C HOOSE TO ISGNORE THE FAT, SOME WHO ARE NOT SATIWSIFEDX SAILED hAL literally dozens and dozens odd ruiseds ands kept returning b ecause they were very happydf with their cxruises Not legitiamate to ignore that IMO.

 

If we HAL loyalists want indifferent service and cold, efficient on-board atmospheres, we have plenty of other choices at far lower rates. Because that is what we would expect for the price. HAL is somewhere in the middle and needs to carefully plan how to stay there.

 

We have absorbed slowing increasing prices and slowly declining services and can continue to do so because everyone is realistic about competing economic demands and workplace realities.

 

But a wholesale and abrupt termination of benefits mid-cruise to the point even the crew got caught in the angry cross fire is indefensible bad management. No other excuses can be made for that incident.

 

To offer a free Tamarind dinner on a subsequent cruise as sole recognition and compensation for this poor management decision is an insult to even those not on this cruise. A sincere promise to manage large cruise bookings far better and not to the detriment of un-noticed passengers and hiding behind the small print is even more insulting. And total refusal to even offer upfront notice to future impacted passengers is the real deal killer.

 

Sailing the indifferent seas is not a winning slogan. Unsavory journey tells the story far better. Your call HAL "management".

ir enough, but of course we have a lot more to go on with regard to those cruise lines. So let's turn it around: What are you looking for in a cruise line that you feel Holland America doesn't serve? I suspect at least one of these newer cruise lines will serve all those needs, were you willing to pay their fare... but let's find o ut.[/ quote] , Cute but the fact is I nowdo and DH and I DID pay rates for our Neptune Suites that would pay for many a cruise on most any cruise line you mention.Those are the rates I pay.

Edited March 24, 2017 by sail7seas

Hi Sail 7 Seas,

Don't forget that the first half of our cruise was lovely in every way. I wish you the same. You have earned it.

 

 

Hi Liz, 54. Thank you

YOU should not choose to ignore the fact some who are expressing dissatisfaction with HAL sometimes lately, sailed happily with HAL literally dozens and dozens of times.

I never do. Never. That's why I asked what I asked you.

 

Toimply it is impossible to please some of the people dismisess any diminishment of the product on HAL's part

Not at all. It literally has nothing to do with it. They offer a service. They don't owe any passenger anything more than they promise. "YOU should not chose to ignore the fact." We are each ourselves responsible for our own feelings, our own satisfaction or dissatisfaction. If someone promises you something, then sure, they're responsible for providing it. But if someone doesn't promise you something, then your feelings about not getting that something are 100% your own. And someone saying, "This is a thing, and it is subject to change," is not a promise, no matter how much chest-beating goes on.

 

Cute but the fact is I nowdo and DH and I DID pay rates for our Neptune Suites that would pay for many a cruise on most any cruise line you mention.Those are the rates I pay.

So the cruise line is satisfying you. Good. Problem solved.

 

 

 

An unfounded and unnecessary statement.

It wasn't a statement. It was a question. The statement came after it. The fact that you failed to quote the answer is disingenuous. Please engage in the discussion with integrity.

 

HAL simply needs to re-work their large-group issues.

Or not. One or the other.

 

HAL is somewhere in the middle and needs to carefully plan how to stay there.

Even this is you unilaterally imposing your own view of things on them. They could decide to merge two lines together, if they feel that there isn't enough room to differentiate the product with Carnival, Holland America and Princess in the same market.

 

 

bUU, unfortunately, I think your second paragraph in 0823AM post really sums it up. Still, it is very disappointing.

No question about it. Disappointment is going to occur whenever there are unmet expectations. However, it is important to note that OlsSalt's presumption that Holland America must change to fit his view of things is simply not true in this case. With the roll-out of Royal Caribbean's new fee for room service, clearly the roll-out could have been done a bit better; even Royal Caribbean admitted that. That's simply not the case here. There is no reason whatsoever to think that this was a mistake, and it shouldn't have happened. The only people who have any chance of knowing whether this was a mistake are the folks at the cruise line who will have the objective evidence from market research and revenues metrics. We will never know.

 

 

I don't recall a single proposal that took into consideration the objectives of the cruise lines and the group organizers. Lots of proposals that would satisfy non-group passengers, Any proposal with a realistic chance of being adopted must be acceptable to the lines and the organizers not just the non-group passengers.

Excellent point.

 

Will anyone fill in the gap? Or will we just hear crickets in response to what you've written?

Edited March 24, 2017 by bUU

Here is all HAL needs to do:

 

1. Ditch their "As You Wish©" dining marketing program which sends a disturbingly mixed message.

2. Notice all booking passengers upfront included evening sit-down dining will be restricted to 5:15 to 6:00 pm only.

3. Optional surcharge dining, included buffet or included room service may be available at other times.

 

Then as booking demands later evolve for that cruise, benefits can be added instead of taken away. Level playing field for all passengers.

 

Start with the assumption large group bookings will take priority over what can also be offered to regular passengers on every cruise that HAL management has deemed potentially available for large-group priority bookings. (So far we have seen the Westerdam, Nieuw Amsterdam and the Eurodam vulnerable to these large group impacts.)

 

Win-win. No more later surprises. No need for future passengers to search the websites on their own looking for potential large group cruise bookings.

Even easier: Just label the field "Preferred dining option:" and put a note in the fine print saying "Preferred dining option not guaranteed."

Even easier: Just label the field "Preferred dining option:" and put a note in the fine print saying "Preferred dining option not guaranteed."

 

That is a nonsense non-solution. Be specific. HAL knows what is up; let the regular passengers know too.

Here is all HAL needs to do:

 

1. Ditch their "As You Wish©" dining marketing program which sends a disturbingly mixed message.

2. Notice all booking passengers upfront included evening sit-down dining will be restricted to 5:15 to 6:00 pm only.

 

3. Optional surcharge dining, included buffet or included room service may be available at other times.

 

Then as booking demands later evolve for that cruise, benefits can be added instead of taken away. Level playing field for all passengers.

 

What effect would that have on bookings considering that no other cruise line would adopt it?

That is a nonsense non-solution.

No it isn't. You just don't like it. Why won't you admit it instead of posting self-ratifying claims that perspectives you don't like are nonsense?

Here is all HAL needs to do:

 

1. Ditch their "As You Wish©" dining marketing program which sends a disturbingly mixed message.

2. Notice all booking passengers upfront included evening sit-down dining will be restricted to 5:15 to 6:00 pm only.

3. Optional surcharge dining, included buffet or included room service may be available at other times.

 

Then as booking demands later evolve for that cruise, benefits can be added instead of taken away. Level playing field for all passengers.

 

Start with the assumption large group bookings will take priority over what can also be offered to regular passengers on every cruise that HAL management has deemed potentially available for large-group priority bookings. (So far we have seen the Westerdam, Nieuw Amsterdam and the Eurodam vulnerable to these large group impacts.)

 

Win-win. No more later surprises. No need for future passengers to search the websites on their own looking for potential large group cruise bookings.

 

As a solo c ruiser, the offer for me to have room servi ce dinner is offensive and inc onsiderate at best. We solos can stay home to eat alone in 'our room'. I would be so gone, so off that ship, their heads would spin... and I would not do so quietly. Who thinks that is a good idea? Oh, sure, have dinner in your cabin. NO !!!! I will not. We travel to be out and about and social. Some folks think having dinner is shoveling food into one's face, others think dinner is dining. I expect to dine and that does .not iclude buffet in Lido. I expect a lovely set table and sit down service. when I travel. Each can speak for themselves.

 

#WWhen they charge me 200% for my cabin, I expectt to be treated like entitled guest expecting flto dine at the time I wish i n MDR as that is promised when they sell me use of Neptune suite.There is only me but I pay for two.

Edited March 24, 2017 by sail7seas

No it isn't. You just don't like it. Why won't you admit it instead of posting self-ratifying claims that perspectives you don't like are nonsense?

 

It is the other way around. You don't like what I am offering - a fair and level playing field for all passengers. Groups get their special perks and regular passengers who choose to book get notice upfront they will not. No one leaves disappointed.

It is the other way around.

No it isn't. I'm not labeling your preference nonsense. Please show me the respect for my perspectives that you expect for your own.

 

You don't like what I am offering - a fair and level playing field for all passengers.

Okay, let's test the integrity of your stated objective: Let's start by giving first-time cruisers all the benefits that five-star mariners get.

The reason that they insist in dining separately is that they do not want to socialize with anyone drinking alcohol. It has been reported on this forum that they will turn their backs on people drinking wine in an elevator.

igraf

 

Is it wrong that I would feel the need to behave "badly" just to torque them in a passive-aggressive way?:evilsmile::rolleyes:

Yes, of couse, I Can b ut I will not. I feel I wish to 'go full circle.'

 

I understand that wish. You've cruised with friends, and you know cruising will never be the same as it was when you sailed with your DH. But, as you know, it still can be satisfying.

 

If you don't run into a massive group, it should still be good. We're just back from Zuiderdam a month ago, and we were very happy with service and the whole experience. All cruise lines are chasing the dollar harder than ever before, and it does show at times. But I know you'll go into your cruise with an open mind (I also know that you aren't a cranky old lady who's impossible to please), and maybe you'll discover that you can find a new way to enjoy HAL.

No it isn't. I'm not labeling your preference nonsense. Please show me the respect for my perspectives that you expect for your own.

 

Okay, let's test the integrity of your stated objective: Let's start by giving first-time cruisers all the benefits that five-star mariners get.

 

Is this five star benefits package not made public notice to all cruisers up front?

 

You seem particularly resistant to the idea regular passengers should not get specific up front notice they will be cruising with a large group, which will materially impact their reasonably expected marketing experiences. Why is that?

 

You wave the vaguely worded cruise legal language at them after the fact (we can do anything we want to you at any time we want) but refuse to offer then notice of these known and specific impacts up front.

 

How about at least caring about the dining stewards who got caught in the middle of this last breakdown, if you refused to be moved by the unsuspecting passengers plight.

 

The only thing you are not saying and I don' want to put words into your own mouth, but it begs to be said is HAL must know upfront regular passengers will not choose to book when they learn up front they will receive second class status. In that case, HAL needs to find a way to level this unequal playing field. They can do it. They chose to be in the hospitality business.

Is this five star benefits package not made public notice to all cruisers up front?

As is the fact that offerings are subject to change. Thanks for making my point.

 

You seem particularly resistant to the idea regular passengers should not get specific up front notice they will be cruising with a large group, which will materially impact their expected marketing expectations. Why is that?

Because in a capitalist society, forcing a business to damage its sales by flooding its promotional materials with a litany of what could go wrong, thereby undercutting the intention of promotional materials which is to attract business, is unprecedented outside of health and safety considerations. Fine print is our society's standard manner for handling such things.

 

I have no especial love for capitalism; get rid of it if you want, put in place a consumer-first economic system if you wish, put in place laws requiring the disclosures you want - I can go any way you want to go there. But until you get society to change to your vision, stop demanding a short cut, and stop demanding special treatment, and stop demanding the power to impose your will on private companies. Most importantly, stop leading first-time cruisers to the conclusion that the cruise line is doing something wrong; stop leading first-time cruisers to the conclusion that they have a reasonable expectation that things will be different from them. That's not helpful to them.

 

Right now the laws are as they are, the standards are as they are (including the usage of fine print) not how you want them to be, and there is nothing forcing every other cruise line to comply with your preferences in this regard either. If the rest of us have to live within that system and deal with its ramifications so do you.

Edited March 24, 2017 by bUU

I understand that wish. You've cruised with friends, and you know cruising will never be the same as it was when you sailed with your DH. But, as you know, it still can be satisfying.

 

If you don't run into a massive group, it should still be good. We're just back from Zuiderdam a month ago, and we were very happy with service and the whole experience. All cruise lines are chasing the dollar harder than ever before, and it does show at times. But I know you'll go into your cruise with an open mind (I also know that you aren't a cranky old lady who's impossible to please), and maybe you'll discover that you can find a new way to enjoy HAL.

 

You share wise words with kindness, Kathy. Nothing I do or experience now is the same as when with my DH and cruising is no exception. One either learns to cope or they do not. It was a big step for me to book tosail completely on my own and a grand surprise when my girlfriend called and suggested she would join me and was booking her cabin. THAT is a real frriend I am blessed to have her and her family in my life.

 

This time I WILL SAIL SOLOin my cabin but have a friend on b oard. Who knows about :) next time, IF there is a next time. :)

As is the fact that offerings are subject to change. Thanks for making my point.

.

 

There is on-the-fly change, expected change, and noticed change. You keep picking the worst arguments to jusifty on-the-fly change that has disparate impacts on a similarly situated group of passengers. Namely it appears you support cruise contract fine print that can and will do whatever they want at any time they want, but will also allow them to protect the contracted rights of one group over another group of passengers

 

Why not change the expectations of the large group on-the-fly instead - tell them sorry, you will not get special dining privileges. Read the fine print -we can do whatever we want anytime we want. Sorry, no compensation or mitigation for your unmet expectations.

 

Just curious, do you have inside HAL interests, or are part of the large group organizations that recently impacted the NA cruise? And no, I do not expect you to answer that. Just asking.

There is on the fly change, expected change and noticed change. You keep picking the worst arguments to jusifty on the fly change that has unequal impacts. Namely, cruise contract fine print can and will do whatever they want at any time they want, but will choose to protect the contracted rights of one group over another group.

 

Why not change the expectations of the large group on-the-fly instead - tell them sorry, you will not get special dining privileges. Read the fine print -we can do whatever we want anytime we want. Sorry, no compensation or mitigation for your unmet expectations.

 

Why not? Simply because the group has their own contract which includes their preferred dining options and over-rides the general contract.