Nieuw Amsterdam Group Booking - HUGE - Eliminates fixed dining and cuts open seating

[OlsSalt]

That "upfront expectation" has no basis in reality. Those "expectations' are marketed as 'options', not promises. Show where any cruise line promises the general passenger (not suites) that they will be provided their preferred dinner seating or location.

 

That is HAL's call, isn't it. Nice to have you confirm this. So why not be more upfront about this.

 

Tell prospective passengers upfront, you will have at least a restricted 45 minute evening dining period as your included evening sit-down dining option. There are extra cost surcharge dining options outside of this 45 minute period if you wish another sit-down dining time..

 

That would work - no more failed marketing or prior cruise expectations, or getting the fine print crammed down your throat later, for any prior misperceptions.

[cccole]

I have been following this thread and find it sooooooo educational re the rights and expectations of passengers on a cruise, and the homework needed that I never thought of. We have only enjoyed 8 cruises and have never experienced what the OP did but I can say that I would be nonlinear if I was given a dining time at 5:45. That's just not us and often cuts into the enjoyment of activities in a port.

 

Not wanting to read 14 pages again, were any passengers in suites denied a dining time of their choice? I thought I read where they had been because of the large group. And, were specialty restaurants available? They were probably very popular if they were available for those banished to "buffet" only. If notices of the limited dining times were sent out ahead of time it would at least give some passengers the option of making specialty restaurant reservations to ease the pain. And IMO the cruise line should be more than happy to comp the charges due to the inconvenience. JMO Cherie

[RocketMan275]

That is HAL's call, isn't it. Nice to have you confirm this. So why not be more upfront about this.

 

Tell prospective passengers upfront, you will have at least a restricted 45 minute evening dining period as your included evening sit-down dining option. There are extra cost surcharge dining options outside of this 45 minute period if you wish another sit-down dining time..

 

That would work - no more failed marketing or prior cruise expectations, or getting the fine print crammed down your throat later, for any prior misperceptions.

 

Or, the development of realistic expectations would work even better.

 

You have yet, despite repeated request, to show where HAL promised specific seating and locations or where HAL promised you could walk up and be seated at the time of your preference.

[bUU]

You are trying to manufacture promises out of preferences.

Well put. There's a lot of rhetoric being thrown around. Perhaps posting evidence of the actual promise and apply the legal principles to establish that it is a legal promise would be illuminating.

 

Some people truly do not care if something affects someone else, as long as it is not them being affected. Some other people feel it is their personal duty to take a contrarion viewpoint about anything that the majority cares about.

That's a pretty callous and confrontational way of viewing other people. First: What makes you think these things don't affect those folks you call "some people"? Second: Don't you consider it your duty to new cruisers to help then develop expectations for what they are purchasing that will be satisfied by the cruises they take? Your comments don't make it seem that way: It makes it seem like you're working hard to foster expectations for which we have clear and compelling evidence they are not going to be satisfied. If anything is contrarian, then surely it is that. I think it is high time folks start thinking more about how much their comments help the newcomer, help the first-timer.

[RocketMan275]

Well put. There's a lot of rhetoric being thrown around. Perhaps posting evidence of the actual promise and apply the legal principles to establish that it is a legal promise would be illuminating.

 

One thing that has been ignored is the fact that Cruise Critic forums are replete with stories of passengers who did not get their preferred seating, table, or dinner time with no mention of a significant group being aboard.

 

The real issue may be a belief that some passengers are receiving preferential treatment. However a cursory comparison of large group fares with exclusive benefits to regular fares demonstrates that members of these groups are paying a premium.

[RuthC]

Some people truly do not care if something affects someone else, as long as it is not them being affected. Some other people feel it is their personal duty to take a contrarion viewpoint about anything that the majority cares about. So, really, the people who seem to think this is acceptable may care once it affects them. And the ones espousing the contrarion point of view may in fact stop espousing it if people stop engaging with them ;)

You have summed up the belaboring the point nicely.

[jhsocal]

Liz54, any idea why early set seating was not available? How about open seating at 5PM? Would think they would want everyone out of the way as early as possible, so they could deal with the large group. Just trying to understand the logistics oh the situation.

[styles27]

"Pretentious" or not the MDR is the only deal in town so to speak, if you want a sit down meal...unless you want to pay to eat at the premium restaurants.

I don't eat at buffets at home and I'm not eating at a buffet every night on a cruise.

 

So yes, if any cruise line told me upfront that the MDR would only be available between 5:30-6:15 I wouldn't book that cruise.

 

 

I doubt they will ever change their policies regarding informing people before their final payment is made. Most people would react to that in a negative way (except the few here that claim they'd be fine with it).

 

 

The other thread about the Eurodam dining being restricted...those folks seemed to get an email notification one month before their cruise...after final payment was already made...after flights were booked. Their hands were tied at that point.

 

HAL's ships are too small to restrict their only main dining room to such a short dining period.

[OlsSalt]

Or, the development of realistic expectations would work even better.

 

You have yet, despite repeated request, to show where HAL promised specific seating and locations or where HAL promised you could walk up and be seated at the time of your preference.

 

Late to the party. We have this figured out.

 

Upfront notice:

 

Your evening sit-down evening dining will be restricted to the following options: a 45 minute period starting at 5:30pm and ending at 6:15 pm in the main dining room, or surcharge dining options at other times at the extra-charge options: Pinnacle ($35pp), Canaletto ($15pp) and Tamarind ($25pp) (Sel deMer - Le Cirque ($49) when available ).

 

Alternate surcharge dining reservations are required and subject to availability. This evening dining policy shall be subject to change at any time, at the sole and final discretion of management..

[sapper1]

Well put. There's a lot of rhetoric being thrown around. Perhaps posting evidence of the actual promise and apply the legal principles to establish that it is a legal promise would be illuminating.

 

That's a pretty callous and confrontational way of viewing other people. First: What makes you think these things don't affect those folks you call "some people"? Second: Don't you consider it your duty to new cruisers to help then develop expectations for what they are purchasing that will be satisfied by the cruises they take? Your comments don't make it seem that way: It makes it seem like you're working hard to foster expectations for which we have clear and compelling evidence they are not going to be satisfied. If anything is contrarian, then surely it is that. I think it is high time folks start thinking more about how much their comments help the newcomer, help the first-timer.

I really do try to follow your thoughts but they are presented in such a conversational pretzel that I lose the train. I'm really just a simple girl who does better with simple explanations. Maybe you could dumb down your points to make them understandable-----please?

[OlsSalt]

Bumped up: HAL verbatim marketing: now you know, except they know but they won't tell you which "itinerary" tosses fixed dining out the window. Except they still promise As You Wish (copyright) dining is available for all passengers from 5:15-9pm.

 

 

As You Wish® Dining

Flexibility is the hallmark of our As You Wish® dining program, and in the main Dining Room, it’s your choice of a traditional pre-set seating and dining time or a flexible open schedule.

One level of the two-tiered restaurant will offer a flexible/open dining service from 5:15 to 9 p.m. daily, and the other will host two seatings, an early seating at 5:45 p.m. and main seating at 8 p.m. Pre-set dining times are subject to change based on itinerary. Guests selecting flexible open seating may make reservations daily during a cruise up to 4 p.m. or simply walk up anytime during dining hours.

[RocketMan275]

Late to the party. We have this figured out.

 

Upfront notice:

 

Your evening sit-down evening dining will be restricted to the following options: a 45 minute period starting at 5:30pm and ending at 6:15 pm in the main dining room, or surcharge dining options at other times at the extra-charge options: Pinnacle, Canaletto and Tamarind (Sel deMer).

 

Alternate surcharge dining reservations are required and subject to availability. This evening dining policy shall be subject to change at any time, at the sole and final discretion of management..

 

Since you've 'figured this out', would you care to explain how you plan on implementing this?

[OlsSalt]

Since you've 'figured this out', would you care to explain how you plan on implementing this?

 

Replace the following language HAL now uses, in order to avoid marketing misperceptions:

 

As You Wish® Dining

 

Flexibility is the hallmark of our As You Wish® dining program, and in the main Dining Room, it’s your choice of a traditional pre-set seating and dining time or a flexible open schedule. One level of the two-tiered restaurant will offer a flexible/open dining service from 5:15 to 9 p.m. daily, and the other will host two seatings, an early seating at 5:45 p.m. and main seating at 8 p.m. Pre-set dining times are subject to change based on itinerary. Guests selecting flexible open seating may make reservations daily during a cruise up to 4 p.m. or simply walk up anytime during dining hours.

[RocketMan275]

Replace the following language HAL now uses, in order to avoid marketing misperceptions:

 

 

 

 

As You Wish® Dining

Flexibility is the hallmark of our As You Wish® dining program, and in the main Dining Room, it’s your choice of a traditional pre-set seating and dining time or a flexible open schedule.

One level of the two-tiered restaurant will offer a flexible/open dining service from 5:15 to 9 p.m. daily, and the other will host two seatings, an early seating at 5:45 p.m. and main seating at 8 p.m. Pre-set dining times are subject to change based on itinerary. Guests selecting flexible open seating may make reservations daily during a cruise up to 4 p.m. or simply walk up anytime during dining hours.

 

Completely trumped by the cruise contract which reads, in part, "Except as otherwise provided, Carrier may, for any reason, without prior notice, cancel the Cruise, Land + Sea Journey, and/or Land Trip(s); deviate from the scheduled ports of call, route and timetable; call or omit to call at any port or place or cancel or modify any activity on or off the Ship;.."

Now show me where in the cruise contract HAL promises you your choice of dining times and venues.

[bUU]

I really do try to follow your thoughts but they are presented in such a conversational pretzel that I lose the train.

They're presented in such a way as to be accurate and valid. I'm careful and deliberate about what I write because without such clarity and specificity then someone can just reply, "but but but."

 

Having said that, the first point was pretty clear: The previous poster made an assumption that people disagreeing with him were posting what they were posting because the matter didn't affect them, even though for some it did affect them. For the second point, the crux of the issue is more clearly expressed in something I posted elsewhere:

 

... how well [are] we posters, as a group, ... doing with regard to helping newcomers and first-timers get the most out of their cruising experiences[?] Are we doing a good job fostering a clear understanding of what things cost and what you get for them? Are we doing a good job fostering expectations that we, based on our experience, know are likely to be satisfied? I'd hate to think that there are people who come to these forums and get a whole bunch of mistaken impressions of what they can expect aboard ship, because they've conversed with folks who are sharing their hopes in spite of their knowledge.

So basically, I was asking whether our comments were helpful for those who most need the kind of help that the forums offers, or were we exclusively fostering frustration by fostering expectations we know are not always satisfied.

 

I hope that helps.

[OlsSalt]

Completely trumped by the cruise contract which reads, in part, "Except as otherwise provided, Carrier may, for any reason, without prior notice, cancel the Cruise, Land + Sea Journey, and/or Land Trip(s); deviate from the scheduled ports of call, route and timetable; call or omit to call at any port or place or cancel or modify any activity on or off the Ship;.."

Now show me where in the cruise contract HAL promises you your choice of dining times and venues.

 

I don't have to show you anything, because that is not the issue and is a very tone-deaf reading of what is at stake here. I suggested language where HAL can give passengers up front notice to reduce any conflict between the alluring and generous marketing perceptions about dining, and the fine print in the cruise contract that takes it all away on whim and management discretion.

 

Take it or leave it. Just trying to help so there is not the full ship meltdown that was reported on the recent N-A cruise. Passengers were unhappy, crew was unhappy and it sounded like this even spilled over to the next voyage. Why on earth would HAL want a repeat of that by standing behind their cruise contract fine print that says neener, neener, neener, we win and you lose. Save those odds for the casino.

 

Several things are at stake from this prior discussion:

 

1. Regular passengers can be deprioritized as to expected and marketed amenities when a large affinity group is also booked

2. HAL will not disclose up front when a large group is booked that will trigger this regular passenger compromise .

3. To keep share holders happy, expect more large group bookings.

4. Suck it up, keep calm and carry on.

5. Surcharge dining is available to meet your compromised dining wishes: $15-$49 per person per night.

[bUU]

I don't have to show you anything, because that is not the issue and is a very tone-deaf reading of what is at stake here.

Nothing is really "at stake" here. What's going on is for all intents and purposes the analog to "settled law". The only thing truly unresolved is the reasonable but otherwise non-operational frustration and disappointment about it.

[OlsSalt]

Nothing is really "at stake" here. What's going on is for all intents and purposes the analog to "settled law". The only thing truly unresolved is the reasonable but otherwise non-operational frustration and disappointment about it.

 

 

And ......... let's see how we can help resolve the "non-operational disappointment". That is the point. Good, we are now on the same page.

 

1. Notice and choice

2. Compensation

3. Better large group policies

[Liz54]

Liz54, any idea why early set seating was not available? How about open seating at 5PM? Would think they would want everyone out of the way as early as possible, so they could deal with the large group. Just trying to understand the logistics oh the situation.

 

It had been my understanding that early set seating was not available. But someone here has pointed out it may have been fully booked as American like to eat early. In any case we were told that was not an option. The only option was 5.15 to 6.00 open seating, or the lido /pizza / room service or pay extra venues. On the pay extra, they were very hard to get reservations for. Does anyone know the capacities of the upper and lower Manhattan Dining rooms?

[bUU]

And ......... let's see how we can help resolve the "non-operational disappointment".

We can't. We are customers not company executives. All we can do is pretend to think we know how to run a business for which we have no fiduciary responsibility, no obligations except those we choose for ourselves, no access to in depth market research and sales data, etc. If we were burdened by realities, and competent, we would - with little doubt - do exactly what the cruise lines all do.

[Charlie1422]

And ......... let's see how we can help resolve the "non-operational disappointment". That is the point. Good, we are now on the same page.

 

1. Notice and choice

2. Compensation

3. Better large group policies

I enjoy reading your thoughtful responses​. However, in my opinion, it is not worth trying to reason with folks who are so enamored with their own brilliance that they are compelled to dispute everything on every issue. I haven't been on CC long, but I recognize a pattern when I see it.

 

Sent from my XT1650 using Forums mobile app

[RocketMan275]

I don't have to show you anything, because that is not the issue and is a very tone-deaf reading of what is at stake here. I suggested language where HAL can give passengers up front notice to reduce any conflict between the alluring and generous marketing perceptions about dining, and the fine print in the cruise contract that takes it all away on whim and management discretion.

 

 

The issue is whether you have a practical plan which you do not. No cruise line is going to adopt your 'suggested language'.

[styles27]

I enjoy reading your thoughtful responses​. However, in my opinion, it is not worth trying to reason with folks who are so enamored with their own brilliance that they are compelled to dispute everything on every issue. I haven't been on CC long, but I recognize a pattern when I see it.

 

Sent from my XT1650 using Forums mobile app

 

You're so right...it takes about 15 min of reading 2 or 3 threads to see it.

 

What these folks don't seem to understand is that the OP didn't start this thread because she was disputing wording in the cruise contract...she posted to share her experience and her disappointment with the way the situation was handled.

 

But somehow this turned into quoting the cruise contract when nobody was disputing it's existence in the first place. :rolleyes:

[bUU]

The issue is whether you have a practical plan which you do not. No cruise line is going to adopt your 'suggested language'.

And so as a result we see the same thing that KevInPitt noted in another thread today: That anyone not pandering to the complaining, which someone wishes to be the only perspective allowed to be expressed, is defective somehow. And as I pointed out in response to that, that intolerance makes it so much more difficult for newcomers and first-timers to gain a clear view of what is reasonable to expect, what may sometimes be provided and sometimes not be provided, and what is wishful thinking. :(

[kazu]

I enjoy reading your thoughtful responses​. However, in my opinion, it is not worth trying to reason with folks who are so enamored with their own brilliance that they are compelled to dispute everything on every issue. I haven't been on CC long, but I recognize a pattern when I see it.

 

Sent from my XT1650 using Forums mobile app

 

You are a very wise person ;)