Nieuw Amsterdam Group Booking - HUGE - Eliminates fixed dining and cuts open seating

[sail7seas]

Neither is unusual. I have seen groups taking up more than 50% of the passengers on several different cruises and cruise lines. It is also not unusual for them to block out an entire dining room or dining period. I have run into that on Celebrity as well as on HAL. Have seen specialty restaurants blocked out for an entire cruise as well.

 

Now the interesting question is if those people that booked for the impacted cruise was able to reserve late traditional dining. Usually that gets blocked out well in advance. The people that have commented here seem to either have have late dining from the earlier cruise and assumed that it carried over, or were anytime dining.

 

 

 

Th. Since the cruise line still provides dinner options (early dining period, buffet, or room service) they are not in violation of contractual terms, even in countries such as the UK were there are very specific requirements for promised services.

Those who book NEPTUNE and pinnacle suites are promised dining time of choie if they wanrt tradition al That is one of the things we pay that higher price to enjoy. I have never failed tO BE ASISGNED our requesred main UPPER TRADITIONAL DINING AND HOPE TO always HAVE THAT BE THE case.

[gagenie]

I never, in my posts suggested that this was a legal issue. It is a consumer issue. Recent posters seem to believe that if it is not to my liking or yours cruise lines will simply sell those cabins to others. If that is the case, why bother with all the frequent cruiser incentive programs?

 

Anyone who has taken Marketing 101 knows that it is much more cost effective to business to retain clients than attract new ones.

 

With that in mind, I have expressed myself here and in a letter to HAL. I loved my first half of the cruise, and the second half was severely impacted by the large group. The decision to book 1200 was HAL's alone. In writing to them I am merely stating how it was from the point of view of a regular cruiser who will think long and hard about booking with them again.

 

If they respond and say they will do better, such as informing passengers in advance, limiting group size etc. I will feel that those of us who complained may have been heard. I would likely then consider another cruise on HAL. If they offer me an incentive such as OBC or reduced fare, I likely will try them again.

 

I always understood what the contract was. That does not cause me to lie down and play dead if I am disappointed. I believe they would be wise to reconsider their approach. The 1200 also were unhappy as those in late dining found it too late and too formal. Not sure how many of them are gleeful new customers for HAL. But that is for HAL to decide.

 

I will feel better having alerted other HAL passengers about what happened and having expressed my position clearly to HAL. The ball is now in their court.

 

Those who shrug about my issues have a different tipping point. If the casino had been closed all week I would have barely been aware. Others would have been up in arms. But I would never have the defeatist attitude that says, my tough luck, say nothing, move on all because of the contract wording and some notional marketing ideas that indicate that "nothing can be done".

 

But that is just me.

 

I am so sorry this happened to you on your cruise!! I like you would have been totally upset by being treated this way and it shouldn't have happened!! That is on Holland and there is NO excuse to be made for them. I hope you get something for troubles, but it would be a long time before I would cruise with them again!

[OlsSalt]

Almost any group impacts the rest of the customers to some degree. For example on one cruise I was on, on Princess, a TA had put together a group of about 100 passengers, pretty small, yet in Glacier Bay they had the best spot for indoor viewing on the ship as a private event the entire time we were in the Bay.

 

Bottom line is that it has happened, it does happen, and it will continue to happen. As a consumer we can make the decision if we wish to continue the product or not, but it is pretty certain that others will.

 

I agree there are times when "ship happens", but you mention only a single disruption due to this smaller group. The OP had her entire last segment of the cruise impacted. That ranks up there with the alleged "non-functioning toilets" for two weeks?

[RDC1]

I agree there are times when "ship happens", but you mention only a single disruption due to this smaller group. The OP had her entire last segment of the cruise impacted. That ranks up there with the alleged "non-functioning toilets" for two weeks?

 

 

That was an example that even small groups may have major impact. I would suspect that on a cruise where the major attraction was Glacier Bay, that a percentage of the people might consider it more of a negative impact then having to eat an hour or two earlier for 7 days.

 

I doubt many would rank having to eat two hours earlier for 7 days (or having to use the buffet or specialty dining) as high as not having a functioning toilet in the room for 7 days. Though I have yet to see toilet problems caused by a group being on board.

[styles27]

I never, in my posts suggested that this was a legal issue. It is a consumer issue. Recent posters seem to believe that if it is not to my liking or yours cruise lines will simply sell those cabins to others. If that is the case, why bother with all the frequent cruiser incentive programs?

 

Anyone who has taken Marketing 101 knows that it is much more cost effective to business to retain clients than attract new ones.

 

With that in mind, I have expressed myself here and in a letter to HAL. I loved my first half of the cruise, and the second half was severely impacted by the large group. The decision to book 1200 was HAL's alone. In writing to them I am merely stating how it was from the point of view of a regular cruiser who will think long and hard about booking with them again.

 

If they respond and say they will do better, such as informing passengers in advance, limiting group size etc. I will feel that those of us who complained may have been heard. I would likely then consider another cruise on HAL. If they offer me an incentive such as OBC or reduced fare, I likely will try them again.

 

I always understood what the contract was. That does not cause me to lie down and play dead if I am disappointed. I believe they would be wise to reconsider their approach. The 1200 also were unhappy as those in late dining found it too late and too formal. Not sure how many of them are gleeful new customers for HAL. But that is for HAL to decide.

 

I will feel better having alerted other HAL passengers about what happened and having expressed my position clearly to HAL. The ball is now in their court.

 

Those who shrug about my issues have a different tipping point. If the casino had been closed all week I would have barely been aware. Others would have been up in arms. But I would never have the defeatist attitude that says, my tough luck, say nothing, move on all because of the contract wording and some notional marketing ideas that indicate that "nothing can be done".

 

But that is just me.

 

I am very appreciative that you posted your experience here. I would be just as upset as you had I been on this cruise and forced to eat before 6:15 if we wanted to eat in the MDR.

 

I've said it before in this thread but I will repeat it again...HAL's ships are not big enough to absorb a group of this magnitude without negatively impacting non group passengers.

 

I would like to see groups of this magnitude charter the entire ship but of course I'm not making the decisions.

[iancal]

You were effectively ripped off by HAL. You did not get what you paid for. That is the bottom line. Some people can make all kinds of excuses and point to contracts however this would be our bottom line. It would serve to shape our next cruise decision.

 

A cruise line's best customer experience is someone who either books another cruise while on board or someone who wants to book another cruise on the line shortly after disembarking.

 

Cannot say that we would be so inclined after paying for steak and getting Kraft dinner so to speak.

[sammiedawg]

I applaud the OP for the measured and articulate description of what happened.

I've sailed seven or eight lines and still read the CC boards on most of them. It is obvious to me Carnival Corp has determined that HAL will be the go to line for big charters groups.

Other lines book small alumni groups or professional groups small enough in numbers not to be disruptive to other passengers. If a large group wants to charter these other lines they must buy out the entire ship.

 

This HAL issue will not go away and should give pause to those booking as individuals. It does not matter whether the individual booked an inside cabin or a full suite.

[RDC1]

I applaud the OP for the measured and articulate description of what happened.

I've sailed seven or eight lines and still read the CC boards on most of them. It is obvious to me Carnival Corp has determined that HAL will be the go to line for big charters groups.

Other lines book small alumni groups or professional groups small enough in numbers not to be disruptive to other passengers. If a large group wants to charter these other lines they must buy out the entire ship.

 

This HAL issue will not go away and should give pause to those booking as individuals. It does not matter whether the individual booked an inside cabin or a full suite.

No it is not a ccl policy direction. It is more that those groups prefer the environmentire of the HAL ships with the competition prices, compared to the other mass market lines. Celebrity tends to draw larger LGBT groups. Royal Caribbean tends to get large gambling groups.

 

Different lines tend to draw different groups. Heavy partying groups do not select HAL.

[bUU]

No it is not a ccl policy direction. It is more that those groups prefer the environmentire of the HAL ships with the competition prices, compared to the other mass market lines. Celebrity tends to draw larger LGBT groups. Royal Caribbean tends to get large gambling groups.

 

Different lines tend to draw different groups. Heavy partying groups do not select HAL.

Okay, thanks for clarifying this. I was a bit curious about the previous poster's contention about Holland America getting radically more group bookings than other cruise lines.

[RDC1]

Okay, thanks for clarifying this. I was a bit curious about the previous poster's contention about Holland America getting radically more group bookings than other cruise lines.

 

The large groups tend to be on 7 day routes. As a result you tend to get them in the Caribbean and the Alaska 7 day routes. The more sedate atmosphere of HAL seems to tend to attract the religious groups more than the other cruise lines. The fact that those groups can get rather large, combined with the average smaller ship size for HAL means that you can run into groups that fill 50% of the ship more often. 1200 people on a 2400 size ship is more of an impact then on a 3600 size ship. That does not mean that CCL management is pushing them onto HAL, nor does it mean that HAL is getting more large groups.

 

Go to some of the specialty travel organizations that book group cruises and you can get an idea of what lines they tend to use and when.

[OlsSalt]

.....

 

Go to some of the specialty travel organizations that book group cruises and you can get an idea of what lines they tend to use and when.

 

The critical issue is how large are these groups. You might find what ships are being advertised for these various group cruises, but rarely can you learn up front how many these groups will be signing up. Nor does HAL disclose an upper limit on their number of bookings either.

 

This very large "church" group has materially impacted HAL ships now twice as reported here on CC. So far they have booked their cruises in the Caribbean and in February on these two 2000 plus passenger ships - the Westerdam and the Nieuw Amsterdam - both times causing the same main dining room disruptions.

 

HAL therefore now has notice when they book this group in the future, what to expect and how it will impact unwitting regular passengers who innocently booked the same cruise. Just tell them up front HAL. Let them at least cancel without penalty, if this is no longer an acceptable compromise for them. It will save a lot of bad feelings and future grief.

[OlsSalt]

Link to IMC CONCERT "gospel" cruises to check whether your own regular booking will be impacted by this "large group" - they market HAL ships because they claim "they are not over-crowded like other cruise ships": http://www.imcconcerts.com/event.php?id=125

 

They do not market they will have exclusive dining room priorities, but in fact market the various dining alternate venues assuming they expect their customers to dine all over the ship and not in just one particular space and time. But they do offer they will have exclusive use of the show room for their own concerts, which apparently is why they also were able to demand exclusive dining room use just for them.

 

This group appears to be the case of the recent NA, and they do seem to like HAL ships when you look at their full schedules of other "large group" gospel cruises. Buyer beware when booking a cruise that coincides with their" large group" cruise agenda.

[Liz54]

The group Cruise on our sailing was called "Inspiration Cruises". http://www.inspirationcruises.com/

But your link goes right to the cruise I was on. They might have any number of websites and TAs selling cabins on the cruises.

[OlsSalt]

WARNING - JULY 15-22 2017 - NIEW AMSTERDAM - ALASKA - http://www.imcconcerts.com/event.php?id=144

 

Your cruise will be impacted by this large group booking, who has taken over the late-seating main dining room seating on at least two other HAL cruises - you may be allowed to dine only during a very early and short time period in the main dining room, per past experiences when this group is also booked onboard.

 

You will be limited to only the Lido buffet or room service, if you wish later dining hours. Plan accordingly.

 

HAL website indicates only interior and ocean view cabins remain on this July 15 cruise - the others have already been "sold out" for this date. Another cruise website showed for this particular July 15 cruise the prices are $200 to $300 less, compared to other July Neiuw Amsterdam Alaska sailings.

 

I guess this is the type of sleuthing that will be now required before booking, so there are no later surprises.

[colbe]

WARNING - JULY 15-22 2017 - NIEW AMSTERDAM - ALASKA - http://www.imcconcerts.com/event.php?id=144

 

Your cruise will be impacted by this large group booking, who has taken over the late-seating main dining room seating on at least two other HAL cruises - you may be allowed to dine only during a very early and short time period in the main dining room, per past experiences when this group is also booked onboard.

 

You will be limited to only the Lido buffet or room service, if you wish later dining hours. Plan accordingly.

 

I will be teaching from the Bible each day to encourage you as we grow together—all in our very own private meeting room.

Which private/public room would that be I wonder.....?

[RDC1]

WARNING - JULY 15-22 2017 - NIEW AMSTERDAM - ALASKA - http://www.imcconcerts.com/event.php?id=144

 

Your cruise will be impacted by this large group booking, who has taken over the late-seating main dining room seating on at least two other HAL cruises - you may be allowed to dine only during a very early and short time period, per past experiences.

 

You will be limited to only the Lido buffet or room service, if you wish later dining hours. Plan accordingly.

 

Bottom line is the cruise lines are going to continue to book groups. The smaller the mass market ship the more impact any group of a given size is likely to have. Do your home work and check before you book or at least before final payment date and other costs are locked in.

 

Groups are not going away, the size of groups are not going to decrease. Just as cruising has increased in popularity for individuals, organizations that specialize in group booking have increased their presence as well. No real way to avoid it. Even higher end lines have some groups.

 

From a cruise line perspective they generally put groups in late seating because US passengers tend to prefer early dining. I suspect that when you look at the numbers. Take the following calculation for an example (don't have exact numbers but the following estimate is what one Matre D told me on a cruise a few months ago when we were talking about scheduling) approximately 70% of US based passengers prefer early dining (this goes up with age). So if your group occupies 50% of the passengers and they are all put late then you 70% of the remaining passengers (35% of the total eating when they want to). You have 30% of the remaining passengers eating when they do not (15% of the total passenger load). Out of that 15% most of them will not get too upset about it, even though it is not their first choice. So you might end up with 5% fairly upset.

 

If you put the group in early dining those numbers your would have issues with 35%, more than twice.

 

If you split the group you have even more problems.

 

So from the cruise line point of view they are impacting the fewest number of people.

[OlsSalt]

"Do your homework". What exactly does that now require?

[OlsSalt]

Bottom line is the cruise lines are going to continue to book groups. The smaller the mass market ship the more impact any group of a given size is likely to have. Do your home work and check before you book or at least before final payment date and other costs are locked in.

 

Groups are not going away, the size of groups are not going to decrease. Just as cruising has increased in popularity for individuals, organizations that specialize in group booking have increased their presence as well. No real way to avoid it. Even higher end lines have some groups.

 

From a cruise line perspective they generally put groups in late seating because US passengers tend to prefer early dining. I suspect that when you look at the numbers. Take the following calculation for an example (don't have exact numbers but the following estimate is what one Matre D told me on a cruise a few months ago when we were talking about scheduling) approximately 70% of US based passengers prefer early dining (this goes up with age). So if your group occupies 50% of the passengers and they are all put late then you 70% of the remaining passengers (35% of the total eating when they want to). You have 30% of the remaining passengers eating when they do not (15% of the total passenger load). Out of that 15% most of them will not get too upset about it, even though it is not their first choice. So you might end up with 5% fairly upset.

 

If you put the group in early dining those numbers your would have issues with 35%, more than twice.

 

If you split the group you have even more problems.

 

So from the cruise line point of view they are impacting the fewest number of people.

 

Let's not start out with assumptions about the non-group, group. Let's start out with upfront notice since you provide such iron-clad data this is the way it will be. Give the poor regular passengers an even break and put a little asterisk on your "as you wish dining" marketing.

 

AS YOU WISH DINING ** (Except when we pull this offer out from under you mid-cruise or post final payment, without prior warning)

Savor the possibility.

[RDC1]

"Do your homework". What exactly does that now require?

 

What I do is to do an internet search on the embarkation date of the cruise, and the cruise line (sometimes the ship name). You have to sort through the general TA listings, but you can often find listings for unique group sales. You also check known sources of groups you want to avoid. There are also sources such as the list someone maintain here on HAL. That will generally tell you if there is a large themed group on board. May take 15 to 30 minutes to get a good idea.

 

Using this incident as an example Inspiration cruises seems to use HAL for Alaska, Royal Caribbean for the Caribbean, and Princess for the eastern Med (at least according to their current list on their web site). They have 10 7 day Alaska cruises planned.

 

To get an idea about the scope of group cruising take a look at

http://themecruisefinder.com/index.html

 

This site is by no means an all inclusive list. It is far from that. But it does give you an idea on how far group cruises spread. Even onto river cruises.

Edited March 20, 2017 by RDC1

[RDC1]

Let's not start out with assumptions about the non-group, group. Let's start out with upfront notice since you provide such iron-clad data this is the way it will be. Give the poor regular passengers an even break and put a little asterisk on your "as you wish dining" marketing.

 

AS YOU WISH DINING ** (Except when we pull this offer out from under you mid-cruise or post final payment, without prior warning)

Savor the possibility.

 

 

Technically they are still offering as you wish. Only with restricted hours. I would expect any postings have some kind of disclaimer allowing them to vary hours from norm somewhere in the fine print or they do not list hours at all.

[jkspringtexas]

Last fall we took a b2b cruise from Hong Kong to Singapore and then on to Sydney - on another cruise line. This was the absolute worst cruise we have ever taken both for us, other passengers and the crew!

 

We were told that at least 95% of the passengers were from large Chinese tour groups. They were rude, pushy, loud and just obnoxious. There were many instances of hostility with passengers not from those groups making for a very uncomfortable cruise unlike what we have ever experienced. Some fellow passengers we met on the leg after Singapore were told by their travel agents, the future cruise desk and also the actual cruise line to rethink their plans and not go on that cruise - it was not meant for the enjoyment of international passengers. Unfortunately, we were never informed by either our cruise line or travel agent. Even officers we spoke with were frustrated and exhausted by the passengers they had for the previous sailings in Asia.

 

Once we got to Singapore they got off and the Aussies "arrived" - one of the best cruises we have ever had!

Edited March 20, 2017 by jkspringtexas

[Liz54]

Let me be clear on the "revised" dining options. No early fixed seating. No late fixed seating. Anytine dining 5.30-615. That is a great deal more than taking away late fixed. If anytime had been available to all up to 8 PM it would have given many more options.

 

On doing one's homework. I did the search described above. In the first week there was a Gospel Group. I contacted them and they told me they anticipated 50 passengers. When I contacted Inspiration they would not tell me the size of the group.

In light of the size of the gospel group, I allowed myself to be mollified. Wrong.

 

A friend has just booked a knitters cruise in 2018. Anticipated to be 50 or so. Wonder how many will not book when they cannot establish in advance the size of these groups, even if small.

Edited March 20, 2017 by Liz54
additional info

[RDC1]

Let me be clear on the "revised" dining options. No early fixed seating. No late fixed seating. Anytine dining 5.30-615. That is a great deal more than taking away late fixed. If anytime had been available to all up to 8 PM it would have given many more options.

 

On doing one's homework. I did the search described above. In the first week there was a Gospel Group. I contacted them and they told me they anticipated 50 passengers. When I contacted Inspiration they would not tell me the size of the group.

In light of the size of the gospel group, I allowed myself to be mollified. Wrong.

 

A friend has just booked a knitters cruise in 2018. Anticipated to be 50 or so. Wonder how many will not book when they cannot establish in advance the size of these groups, even if small.

 

I tend to stay away anything that has a group that I can find, even on a large ship, even if they appear 50-100 people. Unless I have some idea of the impact. Of course most of the groups that small will not be advertised groups and you will not find them. Groups put together by a single TA, University, chamber of commerce, individual church, etc you probably won't find but they tend to be in the 100-200 size.

 

Just to be clear. The ship still had early fixed for those that had booked early fixed. It was not available to you because it was already filled, leaving your only option being Anytime 5:30-6:15.

[LMaxwell]

Am considering a 7 day HAL cruise and this is a major, major red flag for me. Have not encountered this on any other line; yes, have run into groups and they had some private events during day time when venues would not otherwise be used; minimal impact to any non-group guest. HAL's treatment of non-group guests seems very invasive and second class. And the worst part is there is no way to know. Makes me pause before playing Russian roulette with this line.

[RDC1]

Am considering a 7 day HAL cruise and this is a major, major red flag for me. Have not encountered this on any other line; yes, have run into groups and they had some private events during day time when venues would not otherwise be used; minimal impact to any non-group guest. HAL's treatment of non-group guests seems very invasive and second class. And the worst part is there is no way to know. Makes me pause before playing Russian roulette with this line.

 

I have run into major groups on Celebrity where they locked up early traditional for the group.

 

These large groups on Hal are pretty easy to avoid, once you know that they are booking.