Spoke to P&O regarding their 40% increase in automatic gratuities.

If you read the link from EXPAT you will see they were NOT my words. That was the opinion of the person who wrote the article. I do not assume that all people who remove the gratuities pay nothing.

You mean EXPAT’s attempt to muddy the waters. The article had to do with US lines not P&O.

Sent from my iPad using Forums

If you read the link from EXPAT you will see they were NOT my words. That was the opinion of the person who wrote the article. I do not assume that all people who remove the gratuities pay nothing.

I wasn't saying they were your words, apologies if you got that impression. I just meant it seems to be the thinking by some people; not just on here but on other forums as well.

Sam.

I wasn't saying they were your words, apologies if you got that impression. I just meant it seems to be the thinking by some people; not just on here but on other forums as well.

Sam.

Sadly I get that impression too.:(

They cannot.

 

If they charges a mandatory service charge it becomes part of the fare and has to be included in the headline price. At that stage it stops being a service charge.

Agreed, except that it can still be a service charge added to the c

basic price, but included in the tit al upfront price, so the shown price includes a service charge.

They cannot.

 

If they charges a mandatory service charge it becomes part of the fare and has to be included in the headline price. At that stage it stops being a service charge.

Wouldn’t affect the cruise price, any more than it would a resteraunt menu item. It would appear in the contract, and how many read that. As has been stated many times here it’s the lead price that most read. This from Which-

“Some restaurants add a compulsory service charge to your bill, and others leave it to your discretion. In essence you have the right to refuse to pay the service charge in either circumstance if the service falls below a reasonable standard.

If a service charge is compulsory, the restaurant must make this clear before you eat. For example, by stating this on menus it has in the window or by telling you verbally”

If the restaurant fails to do so, then you can argue that the compulsory service charge does not form part of your contract.

DAVID

Wouldn’t affect the cruise price, any more than it would a resteraunt menu item. It would appear in the contract, and how many read that. As has been stated many times here it’s the lead price that most read. This from Which-

 

“Some restaurants add a compulsory service charge to your bill, and others leave it to your discretion. In essence you have the right to refuse to pay the service charge in either circumstance if the service falls below a reasonable standard.

If a service charge is compulsory, the restaurant must make this clear before you eat. For example, by stating this on menus it has in the window or by telling you verbally”

If the restaurant fails to do so, then you can argue that the compulsory service charge does not form part of your contract.

DAVID

From the Advertising Standards Authority

Rule 3.18 of the CAP Code states that "quoted prices must include non-optional taxes, duties, fees and charges that apply to all or most buyers.

https://www.asa.org.uk/advice-online/compulsory-costs-and-charges-vat.html

You mean EXPAT’s attempt to muddy the waters. The article had to do with US lines not P&O.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Forums

P & O is part of Carnival Corporation no muddy of the waters here just posting of the truth. The line will not make the charge mandatory because the charge loses it value to the company at that point.

P & O has lied about this charge and how they handle it. The letter left at the cabins alone prove that. The principles of law are the same if you are talking United States or Great Britain, they share the same common roots therefore using them in comparison is correct in this case.

The bottom line is the cruise line raised the fees over 40% not for the benefit of the crews but to help the Corporation. As guest you are free to do as you want with these fees. I as a guest will always remove them and tip directly to the staff as I feel is correct.

From the Advertising Standards Authority

 

 

https://www.asa.org.uk/advice-online/compulsory-costs-and-charges-vat.html

Exactly.

Any 'compulsory' service charge would have to appear in the headline price so P&O couldn't advertise a cruise as "only £499" and then somewhere else say "plus £49 compulsory service charge", it would have to advertise it as "only £548".

So the only purpose of including a separately advertised service charge would be so you could say "service charge included".

Now that might be a selling point to experienced cruisers, but P&O are aiming a lot of their marketing at a non-traditional audience who have never even thought about a service charge. So in their advertising they are raising a negative point and then trying to spin it as positive. A pretty silly thing to do.

Also by making them compulsory they definitely become part of the consideration for the supply of the cruise by P&O, so has all the knock on tax implications. A voluntary payment made by people which is held and administered by P&O on behalf of the staff is a very different thing.

Exactly.

 

Any 'compulsory' service charge would have to appear in the headline price so P&O couldn't advertise a cruise as "only £499" and then somewhere else say "plus £49 compulsory service charge", it would have to advertise it as "only £548".

 

So the only purpose of including a separately advertised service charge would be so you could say "service charge included".

 

Now that might be a selling point to experienced cruisers, but P&O are aiming a lot of their marketing at a non-traditional audience who have never even thought about a service charge. So in their advertising they are raising a negative point and then trying to spin it as positive. A pretty silly thing to do.

 

Also by making them compulsory they definitely become part of the consideration for the supply of the cruise by P&O, so has all the knock on tax implications. A voluntary payment made by people which is held and administered by P&O on behalf of the staff is a very different thing.

Yes it is a different thing and they can even quite legitimately make a charge for doing that administration so some of the money may be diverted to that. I say may as pando, along with lots of other companies never quite make it clear if they charge admin and what the admin fees are if they do.

You mean EXPAT’s attempt to muddy the waters. The article had to do with US lines not P&O.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Forums

P&O have certainly kept up their obfuscation about how they handle all the auto tip money, so we know who is to blame for any muddy waters. Which perhaps is not surprising when you work out that they would receive £45m pa if everyone paid the full amount, and I certainly do not believe that all of that is shared only among the listed members of staff in P&O's Q&A section.

From the Advertising Standards Authority

 

 

https://www.asa.org.uk/advice-online/compulsory-costs-and-charges-vat.html

Well that doesn’t seem to apply to resteraunts and what about resort charges/taxes applied in many eu countries where customers are not even aware of them until they arrive at the hotel. In America you can make a purchase at the ticket price but when you pay there is a state tax on top. Yes they may appear at the bottom of the menu or on a booking form in small print, but it clearly would not be added to the advertised price or to the menu price.

Well that doesn’t seem to apply to resteraunts and what about resort charges/taxes applied in many eu countries where customers are not even aware of them until they arrive at the hotel. In America you can make a purchase at the ticket price but when you pay there is a state tax on top. Yes they may appear at the bottom of the menu or on a booking form in small print, but it clearly would not be added to the advertised price or to the menu price.

People do break the rules, but in the case of a restaurant adding a service charge, I think that if you said you would not pay it you would find it removed.

Edit to add...though Which does say that if you are informed about it, you can only refuse to pay because of poor service.

Edit to add further....that it looks as though things are under review

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3568670/Death-knell-restaurant-service-charge-Diners-choice-tipping.html

Well that doesn’t seem to apply to resteraunts

Plenty of small businesses fly under the radar of officialdom and only operate correctly when challenged.

Large companies like P&O like to be legally correct, even if not morally so (for example Amazon and their tax bill).

People do break the rules, but in the case of a restaurant adding a service charge, I think that if you said you would not pay it you would find it removed.

 

Edit to add...though Which does say that if you are informed about it, you can only refuse to pay because of poor service.

 

Edit to add further....that it looks as though things are under review

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3568670/Death-knell-restaurant-service-charge-Diners-choice-tipping.html

The article is 2 years old. It's a long review.

I am not by any means a lawyer, but having read all the stuff seems to me that it would be difficult for cruise lines to advertise and not break the law on clarity without all compulsory prices being included. It is easier for a restaurant it has a menu, all the time and can poiint things out verbally, a cruise line is not in that position.

P&O have certainly kept up their obfuscation about how they handle all the auto tip money, so we know who is to blame for any muddy waters. Which perhaps is not surprising when you work out that they would receive £45m pa if everyone paid the full amount, and I certainly do not believe that all of that is shared only among the listed members of staff in P&O's Q&A section.

Oh good, another made up fact to allow those who do not want to tip to justify their actions.

Muddy waters again.

Sent from my iPad using Forums

Oh good, another made up fact to allow those who do not want to tip to justify their actions.

 

Muddy waters again.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Forums

What is made up Dai?

I took the total lower berth passenger numbers of each ship as per P&Os brochure to calculate the annual value of the auto grats if everyone paid the full amount, no one except P&O knows just how many do pay the auto grats, but my figures are in no way made up or inflated.

Oh good, another made up fact to allow those who do not want to tip to justify their actions.

 

Muddy waters again.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Forums

If P&O are unwilling to provide facts such as exactly how is the distribution made, what proportions end up with each section, what happens to the money if staff don't deserve a bonus, etc, then is it any wonder people will fill in the gaps.

If you have any better facts, let us hear them.

I think there a few barroom lawyers here so to be specific let’s look at how Carnival handles another possible charge namely fuel supplement.

(d) Cruise Fare does not include fuel supplement charges, security surcharges, or similar incidental surcharges (“surcharges”); Carnival reserves the right to impose or pass any of thesesurchargesandnorightofcancellationshallbeimplied. “Fuelsupplement”shallmean any additional charge to defray a portion of Carnival’s fuel costs. The amount of fuel supplements and government fees and taxes collected are subject to change. Carnival reserves the right to charge a fuel supplement of up to $9.00 USD, or its equivalent in foreign currency, per person per day, without prior notice, in the event that the price of light sweet crude oil according to the NYMEX (New York Mercantile Exchange Index) is greater than $70.00 USD per barrel of oil. Carnival may collect any fuel supplement in effect at the time

of sailing, even if the cruise fare has been paid in full.

Note as specifically stated this will not be added to the fare. So any additional charges are not likely to affect the advertised fare.

DAVID.

If P&O are unwilling to provide facts such as exactly how is the distribution made, what proportions end up with each section, what happens to the money if staff don't deserve a bonus, etc, then is it any wonder people will fill in the gaps.

 

If you have any better facts, let us hear them.

No you provide facts you never do. It is all assumption.

Muddying the waters.

Sent from my iPad using Forums

What is made up Dai?

I took the total lower berth passenger numbers of each ship as per P&Os brochure to calculate the annual value of the auto grats if everyone paid the full amount, no one except P&O knows just how many do pay the auto grats, but my figures are in no way made up or inflated.

Your assumption that P&O does not pass on all the cash is made up you have no proof at all. It suites your case to invent what happens.

Muddying the water.

Sent from my iPad using Forums

I see Fred Olsen have upped their auto tips from £4 to £5 a day as well.

Your assumption that P&O does not pass on all the cash is made up you have no proof at all. It suites your case to invent what happens.

Muddying the water.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Forums

Dai, assuming that stewards receive 35% of the total, which was about the percentage when envelopes ruled the world, then IF everyone paid and IF stewards handle 19 cabins each, which is the current level. Then I estimate that with approx 8850 cabins there will be about 465 stewards and their share of the pot would be about £16m (35% of £45m) or about £34,000pa each,. Now when the reward scheme came in Dingle said that cabin stewards received about £1000 per month, which while lower than the UK minimum wage was a lot higher than they could earn in their home countries,

I know the auto tip has gone up a lot but nowhere near enough to treble their wages, and this is why some of us feel that those paying the auto tip are subsidising P&O, whilst those not paying it (and not tipping) are also being subsidised by those paying it.

Dai, assuming that stewards receive 35% of the total, which was about the percentage when envelopes ruled the world, then IF everyone paid and IF stewards handle 19 cabins each, which is the current level. Then I estimate that with approx 8850 cabins there will be about 465 stewards and their share of the pot would be about £16m (35% of £45m) or about £34,000pa each,. Now when the reward scheme came in Dingle said that cabin stewards received about £1000 per month, which while lower than the UK minimum wage was a lot higher than they could earn in their home countries,

I know the auto tip has gone up a lot but nowhere near enough to treble their wages, and this is why some of us feel that those paying the auto tip are subsidising P&O, whilst those not paying it (and not tipping) are also being subsidised by those paying it.

You can make up as many figures as you like it means nothing.

Muddying the water.

Sent from my iPad using Forums

No you provide facts you never do. It is all assumption.

 

Muddying the waters.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Forums

So you have no facts, just beliefs.