Question about Service Charge

[luddite]

Now I understand what the problem is here. $3/day is the normal amount. Oh, well.

 

Aha! The rules don't allow us to be REAL specific when diagnosing the problem. It's unfortunate ,but probably for the best. :)

[sjbdtz]

It's not the responsibility of the pax to pay the wages of the crew.

 

 

I have said many times that these arguments would not occur if NCL would just add the DSC to the final cost of the cruise. It's not so hard to have "cruise fare," "government taxes and fees," and "service charges." The secrecy and "surprise~ that'll be $300 MORE" feeling of the way they handle this is what causes people to balk - NOT having to pay a fair gratuity.

 

Who should pay the crew? People who don't take cruises? Passengers will pay the wages of the crew, the cost of the hull paint, the food, the berthing fees, the cost of employing the accountants at head office, and every other cost associated with providing a cruise vacation.

 

The only question is whether it's paid BEFORE the cruise, or AFTER.

 

 

$60/day? by myself? EASILY. We are not the order steak and eggs, big lunch, and surf and turf for dinner every night couple.

 

A normal vacation day for me in a resort town on the east coast includes $10 for breakfast $0 for lunch and $20 for dinner

 

I just don't see how $24 a person is justified in this scenario:

 

we wake up, we go to great outdoors, we have the breakfast buffet.I get my own food, drinks, and silverware. The staff cleans off my table.

 

We go to lunch at blue lagoon, We get chicken fingers. They do server our food and drinks.

 

We go to dinner, Tsars palace we have oven roasted chicken or turkey or steak whatever is on the menu. They again serve our food and drinks.

 

With that menu for the entire day if I was a waitor I would expect no more than $11 - $12 max.

 

Okay, I've read most of your arguments. Let me sum-up:

 

- you work all day (in Armonk?) making sure big companies stay online. You don't receive any tips.

 

- tipping is provided for good service.

 

ERGO?

 

 

 

- you work all day in a data centre, without tips.

 

- people who get tipped in advance (or don't have the incentive to get tips after the meal) will do a shoddier job, "chat with my friends while you need service".

 

Does this reflect the type of service you provide?

 

OR, would it be fairer to say that someone who is paid a higher wage (than minimum) might have more to lose, if they lost that wage (minimum wage jobs being easier to find)?

 

By eschewing tipping, and instituting a DSC, crew are assured of a higher salary with a lower risk of cheapskates. This makes the jobs more desirable. Makes the candidate pool deeper, and competition to get these jobs tougher. This ensures that the talent available to the employer is stronger, and the dearth of comparable-paying jobs in the field is minimal.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Lastly,

 

Someone noted that "government taxes and fees" are reflected in the small print, but that the DSC wasn't.

 

A few things:

 

- the government taxes are not spelled-out

 

- the small print actually separates out 'fees' by use of a comma. Fees can be from anywhere, including a Cruise Doc e-mailing fee, if the line so chose to implement one.

 

- Try looking at flights on Air Canada. A one-way flight from Toronto to Vancouver on October 21st is priced at $379. At the top of the page in small print it says that fees, service charges & taxes are not included.

 

Go through the booking process and find an additional $111.56 in "taxes, fees, charges, and surcharges". A single line-item.

 

30% additional cost.

[luddite]

For cruiserwilly: ohionclcruiser works on NCL ships. His info tends to be on the up-and-up. Ask a crewmember, they'll tell you about the pooled tips when the DSC gets pulled by a toad cruiser. When you go to get the DSC pulled, the ship's staff wants to know where the problem lies such that it can be corrected. Of course, when the staff realizes that the problem is because the passenger is a toad, welllll, you can see where THAT exchange will go.

[upthewavey]

I am suprised that there is so much emotion regarding this subject. Everytime I have been to the USA (6 times now) I have had to come to terms with your "Tipping Culture". Nobody who lives in your country should be suprised by any additional charges (or whatever you want to call them) that are expected by your service industry.

I have travelled many countries all over the world but only in the USA is tipping such a part of the culture.

But I think it is a bit over the top to basically say if you don't like it don't cruise on NCL. Some people are made to feel embarrased about the fact they are taking the option (given by NCL) to remove/reduce the DSC. NCL are the only people who are going to resolve this issue, so until they do why not let those who want to pay, pay. Then let those who don't, cruise and enjoy the experience.

[roveer]

Roveer I absolutely agree with you that it is NCL's obligation to clearly show the DSC info at the time of booking, the same way the rest of the charges are shown. I got gang-flamed a few months ago for getting on my soapbox about this. To some people NCL can do no wrong!! Sure, the info is disclosed on the website but I agree that anything to do with what your non-optional final bill will be should be clearly disclosed up front before booking. Lots of CC folks say "if you can't afford or don't want to pay the DSC, then don't cruise!". Well, fine--if you know about it in the first place before incurring financial liability.

 

There is no way you should have to go on a hunt for what you are going to have to pay. Period.

 

This will be my final word on this topic. I wish I had never come across it on Monday as it has started a war of words that I sincerly hope ends soon. Some of the problem with my perspective on this was my current state of mind. I can at times get argumentative and extremly stubborn in my point of view. For that I apologize. I still contend that NCL has things mixed all over the place and this really got me. Coming to understand that this is more of just a pre-paid tipping system instead of what it is named (service charge) changes my opinion. This I learned at about 11pm last night. You see, the DSC is over 500 dollars for my trip and that is probably in the neighborhood of what I would expect to tip for a 7 day cruise. I was expecting another 500 dollars on top of that for "tipping" since tipping is different than service charge in my book. Some places call it "included gratuity" which I'm not terribly fond of. I'll decide if the service was tip worthy. As for those who wonder why I was able to find the fuel surcharge and not the DSC, well the fuel surcharge was listed several words away from the cost of the cruise, the dsc was listed in the same paragraph, but then not monitarily disclosed until you went to the FAQ and read down 23 topics. No asterick next to the fair saying additional costs not included, just a game of connect the dots. I think I'm so bothered by all of this because my calculations tell me that I'll likely be paying between 1,000-1,200 above the cruise fair for DSC, tipping, and Freestyle dining. I like the "all-included" aspect of cruising. Why is NCL going away from this concept? It's not whether I can afford this or not, it's "the price is not the price" thing that has me peeved. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and that's mine. I hope that this thead makes it into the hands of NCL and they somehow learn from the different perspectives that have been aired. I have seen many valid points discussed on both sides of the issue. It's got to be 12:00 someplace, I think I'll go and have a Jack Daniels :D

[SilentHill]

Who should pay the crew? People who don't take cruises? Passengers will pay the wages of the crew, the cost of the hull paint, the food, the berthing fees, the cost of employing the accountants at head office, and every other cost associated with providing a cruise vacation.

 

The only question is whether it's paid BEFORE the cruise, or AFTER.

 

 

 

 

Okay, I've read most of your arguments. Let me sum-up:

 

- you work all day (in Armonk?) making sure big companies stay online. You don't receive any tips.

 

- tipping is provided for good service.

 

ERGO?

 

 

 

- you work all day in a data centre, without tips.

 

- people who get tipped in advance (or don't have the incentive to get tips after the meal) will do a shoddier job, "chat with my friends while you need service".

 

Does this reflect the type of service you provide?

 

OR, would it be fairer to say that someone who is paid a higher wage (than minimum) might have more to lose, if they lost that wage (minimum wage jobs being easier to find)?

 

By eschewing tipping, and instituting a DSC, crew are assured of a higher salary with a lower risk of cheapskates. This makes the jobs more desirable. Makes the candidate pool deeper, and competition to get these jobs tougher. This ensures that the talent available to the employer is stronger, and the dearth of comparable-paying jobs in the field is minimal.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Lastly,

 

Someone noted that "government taxes and fees" are reflected in the small print, but that the DSC wasn't.

 

A few things:

 

- the government taxes are not spelled-out

 

- the small print actually separates out 'fees' by use of a comma. Fees can be from anywhere, including a Cruise Doc e-mailing fee, if the line so chose to implement one.

 

- Try looking at flights on Air Canada. A one-way flight from Toronto to Vancouver on October 21st is priced at $379. At the top of the page in small print it says that fees, service charges & taxes are not included.

 

Go through the booking process and find an additional $111.56 in "taxes, fees, charges, and surcharges". A single line-item.

 

30% additional cost.

 

 

From my experience. 10/10 - 10/17 NCL Jewel My first cruise ever. I thought the food service in the MDR, and "free" eateries was on par with what I would expect from a bad 24 hour diner.

 

Wait staff could care less if we needed a refill, they balked at us for occasionally ordering an extra plate of something because of the small portions, They rarely if ever checked up on us to see if we needed anything additional, Hell rarely was coffee even offered with dessert.

 

Now. There was an exception. Our first night we had an AWESOME waiter in the MDR. The wait staff was also exceptionally pleasent in the two specialty resturaunts we ate in.

 

Now I could have taken the time to go get all f their names and complain about this and that, but people I WAS ON VACATION! I should not nor wnt to be bothered with having to go to a manager and express my concerns that the service was not up to standard. I did however express my displeasentries on the NCL survey I got in my e-mail yesterday. I hope it counts for something.

[sjbdtz]

From my experience. 10/10 - 10/17 NCL Jewel My first cruise ever. I thought the food service in the MDR, and "free" eateries was on par with what I would expect from a bad 24 hour diner.

 

Wait staff could care less if we needed a refill, they balked at us for occasionally ordering an extra plate of something because of the small portions, They rarely if ever checked up on us to see if we needed anything additional, Hell rarely was coffee even offered with dessert.

 

Now. There was an exception. Our first night we had an AWESOME waiter in the MDR. The wait staff was also exceptionally pleasent in the two specialty resturaunts we ate in.

 

Now I could have taken the time to go get all f their names and complain about this and that, but people I WAS ON VACATION! I should not nor wnt to be bothered with having to go to a manager and express my concerns that the service was not up to standard. I did however express my displeasentries on the NCL survey I got in my e-mail yesterday. I hope it counts for something.

 

 

I guess the awesome waiter didn't realize his tips were covered in advance.

 

Did you tip him extra after the meal?

[cynbar]

Roveer, please don't feel you need to tip anything above the DSC unless the service is really exemplary --- as you've successfully figured out, the DSC IS the tipping, and it was installed on most lines who went to "freestyle" dining systems where you have different waiters every night. Going to the specialty restaurants of course is totally optional. Not much has changed in the total cost of the cruise, people are expected to either agree to auto-tips or tip in cash on all the major lines except for the high end ones. We may or may not agree with it, but a recommended amount of tipping has always been part of cruising. Hopefully we can now put this thread to bed!!

 

PS __ NCL and many of the other lines now go for more of an a la carte approach to cruise pricing, where you pay extra for what you want but don't have to if you choose not to. It keeps the fares lower which is important for filling the ships, and really, cruisers can get through the week by spending not much over the DSC (I didn't say it would be easy, but it is possible.) Personally, this is OK with me. I don't drink soda, for example, so I wouldn't like to see the fare increased so soda could be free for all. I don't usually buy photos, but I do like a few cocktails, and a light drinker shouldn't have to subsidize that. Everyone pays for what they use --- seems fair to me. If you notice, cruises don't really bill themselves as all-inclusive anymore.

[swedish weave]

 

EvilCamaro wins this one, "to the benefit of the crew" is NOT 100% "their pockets".

 

 

My, My --- Aren't we getting picky here ???? Maybe some don't have pockets in their uniforms... Why didn't I think of that ?????

[cruiser willy]

Dear smeyer418:

 

Thank you for posting that informative link. I truly found alot of new and valuable info.

 

Not to be argumentative, but there was no evidence or even statement to support the claim that CASH TIPS MUST BE POOLED.

 

Again, I believe that recipients of cash tips tend to share them as they see fit with their support staff.

 

In my youth I was employed as a bartender for several restaurants and clubs on land here in the states. It was very common for waitresses to "tip-out' bartenders for their help making drinks, and for bartenders to "tip-out" bar backs for stocking the bar as needed. In fact, new hires were told of this policy by management as a strong suggestion to maintain fairness and good service. There was never a mechanism to enforce this practice, though. And I refuse to believe that there exists any such enforcement mechanism on cruise ships.

[SilentHill]

I guess the awesome waiter didn't realize his tips were covered in advance.

 

Did you tip him extra after the meal?

 

Sure did. I just wish I could take some back from the people who sucked to give more to him.

[erdoran]

 

 

Lastly,

 

Someone noted that "government taxes and fees" are reflected in the small print, but that the DSC wasn't.

 

A few things:

 

- the government taxes are not spelled-out

 

- the small print actually separates out 'fees' by use of a comma. Fees can be from anywhere, including a Cruise Doc e-mailing fee, if the line so chose to implement one.

 

- Try looking at flights on Air Canada. A one-way flight from Toronto to Vancouver on October 21st is priced at $379. At the top of the page in small print it says that fees, service charges & taxes are not included.

 

Go through the booking process and find an additional $111.56 in "taxes, fees, charges, and surcharges". A single line-item.

 

30% additional cost.

 

Yes, Steve, but BEFORE YOU BOOK THE FLIGHT you see the total you are going to end up spending, itemized, in one place, so you have the info available BEFORE making a financial commitment, in case you choose not to book because of the additional $$. NOT after you have booked, when you MIGHT (or might not) go through the fine print which STILL doesn't disclose the cost for the DSC, and then you MIGHT (or might not) think to go through each FAQ in turn. Or after you have (by the simple act of booking) obligated yourself to a hefty cancellation fee that some websites and travel agencies charge. That is the essence of OP's complaint.

[sdmike]

Roveer, please don't feel you need to tip anything above the DSC unless the service is really exemplary --- as you've successfully figured out, the DSC IS the tipping, and it was installed on most lines who went to "freestyle" dining systems where you have different waiters every night. Going to the specialty restaurants of course is totally optional. Not much has changed in the total cost of the cruise, people are expected to either agree to auto-tips or tip in cash on all the major lines except for the high end ones. We may or may not agree with it, but a recommended amount of tipping has always been part of cruising. Hopefully we can now put this thread to bed!!

 

PS __ NCL and many of the other lines now go for more of an a la carte approach to cruise pricing, where you pay extra for what you want but don't have to if you choose not to. It keeps the fares lower which is important for filling the ships, and really, cruisers can get through the week by spending not much over the DSC (I didn't say it would be easy, but it is possible.) Personally, this is OK with me. I don't drink soda, for example, so I wouldn't like to see the fare increased so soda could be free for all. I don't usually buy photos, but I do like a few cocktails, and a light drinker shouldn't have to subsidize that. Everyone pays for what they use --- seems fair to me. If you notice, cruises don't really bill themselves as all-inclusive anymore.

 

Nice post. I generally prefer the ala carte approach to things that a large portion of participants would prefer to not do, or at least then have a choice. I generally don't drink on ships (not that I'm against drinking, but I'm against paying so much for it :) ), and like you I don't need soda. I also don't mind paying extra for specialty restaurants if I use them. I guess once I get by my overall disgust with the airlines I prefer them to have a per bag charge instead of raising all fares $50 to cover them. Bags are heavy, and extra weight uses extra fuel. I've seen folks bring a half dozen suitcases to the airport, while I can generally go for 4-5 days with a small roll-aboard. IT makes sense for them to pay more than me too

[nezume]

Yes, Steve, but BEFORE YOU BOOK THE FLIGHT you see the total you are going to end up spending, itemized, in one place, so you have the info available BEFORE making a financial commitment, in case you choose not to book because of the additional $$. NOT after you have booked, when you MIGHT (or might not) go through the fine print which STILL doesn't disclose the cost for the DSC, and then you MIGHT (or might not) think to go through each FAQ in turn. Or after you have (by the simple act of booking) obligated yourself to a hefty cancellation fee that some websites and travel agencies charge. That is the essence of OP's complaint.

 

Actually OP wasn't complaining, at least in the first post. Just asking about it. It's later posters that have come on to complain and berate the system.

[Dr. Jack Daniels]

UNCALLED FOR REMARK! I was in line at the service desk for a totally different matter and overheard the people in front of me and saw the purser or their assistant come speak with them! (I think you better lay off the Jack Daniels...):p

 

I think you should not listen to other people's conversations and just worry about yourself.:p

[Shelli]

This is where I went wrong. I did not go on a hunt through the small print. I thought the fare was the fare.

 

<snip>

 

I read somewhere where someone was saying this is commonplace in the cruise industry. Not the last line I sailed on. The price was the price. No BS, and no additional charge for soda either. At least I knew how much I was paying when I gave the OK.

 

You've mentioned that you previously sailed on Disney and that you have a family of 6 (is that right?). According to Cruise Critic's page on tipping, Disney suggests tipping $12 pp per day (children, too) as well!

 

You DID tip on Disney... didn't you?

[Globaliser]

Some people are made to feel embarrased about the fact they are taking the option (given by NCL) to remove/reduce the DSC.

They should be embarrassed, if they do it for no reason other than that they don't want to pay it.

 

That, at least, is the opinion of this Brit, who detests the entire practice of tipping and wishes that it would get abolished worldwide - but who detests even more people who cannot see that the DSC is the way that the staff get paid. Ensuring that you pay the staff is more important than any personal feelings about whether tipping/DSC is good/bad/devil's spawn.

[BeeeJay]

I've yet to ever cruise, but started viewing this website in preparation for my upcoming first cruise. I didn't spend much time on small print, but I was aware of the possible fuel surcharge and $12/day tip-service charge.

 

The following is strictly my opinion based on my experiences working in the service industry, traveling, and consulting in large U.S. corporations. My take is probably a little "out there" and are likely different from others.

 

I don't believe this is really a "cruise" issue but more of a cultural issue. Actually it is two issues:

 

#1 Tipping. The U.S. is a country based on capitalism and tipping is the ultimate expression. My opinion is it should be based on service quality and vary from 0-25%. Employers are required to make up the difference between actual hourly earnings by tipped employees and minimum wage.

 

If a waiter sucks, they should get minimum wage from the employer, who will fire them pretty quickly if they are making up the difference. If they are good they should make at the higher end of the range.

 

The problem is the tip level is overly effected by the predisposition of the tipper. Those from non-tipping cultures receiving outstanding service are less likely to tip 15% or higher than those who worked tipped positions in the past receiving poor service.

 

#2 Hidden Charges. A significant portion of the U.S. economy is based on fooling the consumer. It IS a part of the culture just as much as the tipping. Let's take a look at the inserts in my mortgage statement from Citibank this month: American Home Shield---scam, sued in most states, yet there it is. Mortgage Life Insurance---scam, overpriced term policy. Bimonthly payment option---scam charge for this "service" in which I agree to pay faster.

 

This is pretty typical. You would have to have masters degrees in finance and accounting and a solid understanding of present value concepts to avoiding getting screwed buying anything from a cruise to new car in the U.S. It's probably almost worth keeping an unemployed actuary on the payroll.

 

Most of the Vegas resorts now have "hidden" resorts fees, the airline situation is obvious, pretty much any large unregulated corporate product is going to have some markup hidden to a degree from barely hidden to outright fraud. They almost have to do it to compete.

 

So to summarize, just add 30% to any quoted price when making your purchase decision, and assume you'll get dinged for it somewhere along the way.

 

If NCL is "Norwegian" owned please disregard my opinions.

[tonit964]

On my last two RCCL cruises, which do not auto add the tip or service charge, every night at dinner there was a large table next to us that sat 12 and everynight most all of them were there having a good time, some port days not everyone would show up but that is to be expected.

 

The wait staff for that table would come over to our table and chat with us, they were very personable and it appeared gave that table very good service. The last night of the cruise when everyone hands out their envelopes, that big table of 12 was empty, not one person showed up and this happened on both cruises. It broke my heart and the dining room in general was empty.

 

I spoke with the waitress that handled that table and she said it happens a lot.

Very sad.

[Micchi]

On my last two RCCL cruises, which do not auto add the tip or service charge, every night at dinner there was a large table next to us that sat 12 and everynight most all of them were there having a good time, some port days not everyone would show up but that is to be expected.

 

The wait staff for that table would come over to our table and chat with us, they were very personable and it appeared gave that table very good service. The last night of the cruise when everyone hands out their envelopes, that big table of 12 was empty, not one person showed up and this happened on both cruises. It broke my heart and the dining room in general was empty.

 

I spoke with the waitress that handled that table and she said it happens a lot.

Very sad.

 

Or they could have pre-paid the gratuities (yes, that is an option on RCCL) and the crew could be telling other pax sob stories. This is why I mind my own business.

 

I'm guessing if it "broke your heart," you adjusted your gratuity upwards...

[lambs2]

They should be embarrassed, if they do it for no reason other than that they don't want to pay it.

 

 

My point EXACTLY!! I SO agree. CHEAPSKATES should just stay home or find some other form of vacation where no one has to serve them anything! Cruising is NOT for them.

[luddite]

My point EXACTLY!! I SO agree. CHEAPSKATES should just stay home or find some other form of vacation where no one has to serve them anything! Cruising is NOT for them.

 

Oh now! Cheapskates need vacations too! :eek:

[Don Haynes]

There was a family at my table which bragged how great their cruise was and how great the crew were pampering them, yet, failed to show up the last night with their tipping envelopes. Having waited and busted tables in restaurants earlier in my life, we lost any respect for that family. They were wanting to get to know us better after the cruise, but we didn't any more... Nothing like empty dining room tables on the last night of a cruise to understand why the cruise lines have implemented daily service charges... :confused::confused::confused:

 

A person would have to be ignorant to not anticipate the tipping involved on cruise ships and liners, its been around since Samuel Cunard devised the system during the nineteenth century...

[marinaro44]

On my last two RCCL cruises, which do not auto add the tip or service charge...

In fact, if you choose "MyTime" dining on RCCL you will pre-pay a service charge...for the same reason you do on NCL: You will likely have dinner at different tables with different servers every night.

 

From RCCL's web site:

 

Prepaid gratuities are required when you select MyTime Dining.

[njhorseman]

I've yet to ever cruise, but started viewing this website in preparation for my upcoming first cruise. I didn't spend much time on small print, but I was aware of the possible fuel surcharge and $12/day tip-service charge.

 

The following is strictly my opinion based on my experiences working in the service industry, traveling, and consulting in large U.S. corporations. My take is probably a little "out there" and are likely different from others.

 

I don't believe this is really a "cruise" issue but more of a cultural issue. Actually it is two issues:

 

#1 Tipping. The U.S. is a country based on capitalism and tipping is the ultimate expression. My opinion is it should be based on service quality and vary from 0-25%. Employers are required to make up the difference between actual hourly earnings by tipped employees and minimum wage.

 

If a waiter sucks, they should get minimum wage from the employer, who will fire them pretty quickly if they are making up the difference. If they are good they should make at the higher end of the range.

 

The problem is the tip level is overly effected by the predisposition of the tipper. Those from non-tipping cultures receiving outstanding service are less likely to tip 15% or higher than those who worked tipped positions in the past receiving poor service.

 

#2 Hidden Charges. A significant portion of the U.S. economy is based on fooling the consumer. It IS a part of the culture just as much as the tipping. Let's take a look at the inserts in my mortgage statement from Citibank this month: American Home Shield---scam, sued in most states, yet there it is. Mortgage Life Insurance---scam, overpriced term policy. Bimonthly payment option---scam charge for this "service" in which I agree to pay faster.

 

This is pretty typical. You would have to have masters degrees in finance and accounting and a solid understanding of present value concepts to avoiding getting screwed buying anything from a cruise to new car in the U.S. It's probably almost worth keeping an unemployed actuary on the payroll.

 

Most of the Vegas resorts now have "hidden" resorts fees, the airline situation is obvious, pretty much any large unregulated corporate product is going to have some markup hidden to a degree from barely hidden to outright fraud. They almost have to do it to compete.

 

So to summarize, just add 30% to any quoted price when making your purchase decision, and assume you'll get dinged for it somewhere along the way.

 

If NCL is "Norwegian" owned please disregard my opinions.

 

As a retired actuary, I certainly agree that at least in your case keeping an unemployed actuary on the payroll is an absolute necessity. No one should gert scammed as much as you apparently let yourself get scammed. :rolleyes: