So, After This, Muster Drills?????

[jgnova]

What is the difference if you reach up to a shelf or down under the bed. The important thing is that is it there in your cabin.

 

If they're on the top closet shelf, odds are they're not blocked by much and fairly easy to grab in the dark. If you have your beds together to form a king and you then shove your luggage under there, where will the life vests be, especially if you haven't thought about it and just shoved your luggage from both sides and the end, pushing whatever was under there towards the middle and back?

 

j

[nikel]

If they're on the top closet shelf, odds are they're not blocked by much and fairly easy to grab in the dark. If you have your beds together to form a king and you then shove your luggage under there, where will the life vests be, especially if you haven't thought about it and just shoved your luggage from both sides and the end, pushing whatever was under there towards the middle and back?

 

j

 

Yes you have a point, but we always shove our luggage towards the middle as we won't be using it for a while and make sure the vest basket is very accessible. I will now also keep a litle flashlight handy.

Just a note, on our last cruise on the Eclipse, there was no shelf on the top closet like on the Equinox and Solstice. The clothes rod was set much higher. Anybody know if they put t back on the Silhouette????

[kitty9]

There are still at least 30 people missing, and considering that, the Captain should have never left the ship with people on board. That's the cardinal rule for any ship captain.

 

The sad story is, they pulled two elderly men, wearing their lifejackets, from a muster area near the dining room. Considering the number of missing, they could also be stuck in the murky waters inside the ship.

 

I read an Italian newspaper last night and they showed a map, with two routes on that map. One route was the one that is normally taken by the Costa ship and the second route was the one that they took before the crash. The normal route was much farther East than the other one, and that one brought the ship very close to the rocky shore of the island. One gentleman who lives on the island, who's a ship owner, said when he noticed the Concordia, he said it was way off the course it normally took and he knew they would be in trouble because it was basically an uncharted area.

[cheryl20772]

We had a muster drill the second day on a HAL med cruise, I know selling drinks is important and everyone is tired from travel but does this make any sense to wait? I have been wondering since that cruise how they get away with waiting.

 

I am pretty sure muster drills do not cover what to do when the life boats are not usable. I am waiting for that question to be answered.

Good point on needing instruction for what to do if the lifeboats are disabled.

 

On the muster drill problem, though, we are used to sailing cruise ships from American ports where the itinerary doesn't usually take on passengers from embark to debark. From what I understand, the Med ship cruises take on new passengers in every port - kind of like a luxury water taxi. That would mean they should run a muster drill after every port docking? Could mean one or two muster drills per day? Is this what we want?

 

IMO, the crew should have been better trained and dispatched. On first alarm, there should have been a crew member at each muster station taking control of the area.

 

As it was, we heard of people showing up at the muster station and being told to go back to their rooms (dark rooms with broken glass in them!). I think I would have refused to go back too.

 

Michelle reported that even after their lifeboat was over filled, they were not given permission to launch it.

 

Seems no one had control. The Captain was apparently at fault as he either did not give the command; or he did not delegate control to those in control of the muster stations.

[DAK76]

One of the things I have noticed is that when you are lined up on deck with the life jacket on people are pretty attentive to the instructions being given. When we are inside sitting in comfy chairs and the instructions are on TV most people are not paying attention. I have yet to be able to see or hear what is going on in this setting.

 

While I think there are sound reasons for moving the muster stations inside, the point about paying attention is well taken. On our last cruise on the Summit, our muster station was a lounge (the Rendezvous, if I recall correctly). One passenger was talking loudly, and when someone tried to quiet him, he got worse. On the way out of the lounge, he was bragging to his friends about rude he could be.

 

I think the rationale for inside muster stations is to get the passengers to a more controlled space in preparation for boarding the boats, even if a decision hasn't been made to abandon yet. This allows for more accurate head counts, keeps passengers in relative safety (assuming the muster station location isn't involved in the emergency), and out of the way of the crews preparing boats.

 

When you think about it, a muster drill would be more realistic if they turned off the lights, induced a list on the ship, and maybe blew some smoke through the ventilation system. But that would probably have an adverse effect on future bookings. ;)

[Leibe_]

 

 

 

IMO, the crew should have been better trained and dispatched. On first alarm, there should have been a crew member at each muster station taking control of the area.

 

As it was, we heard of people showing up at the muster station and being told to go back to their rooms (dark rooms with broken glass in them!). I think I would have refused to go back too.

 

Michelle reported that even after their lifeboat was over filled, they were not given permission to launch it.

 

Seems no one had control. The Captain was apparently at fault as he either did not give the command; or he did not delegate control to those in control of the muster stations.

 

The crew can only be what the Captain makes them. He did not have control because he was not on the ship!!! He was one of the first off............his actions were cowardly. Several passengers have said he had been drinking and socializing shortly before the accident. It will be interesting to see what the investigation turns up. Did he run because he had been drinking? or is he just a coward?

Anybody remember the Exxon Valdez???????

[Grumpy100]

I really do not like muster drills but we always listen and pay attention because we know that emergencies can happen at any time. I think that each cruise should start and end at the entire route and not allow people to come on board during the middle of a cruise.

Costa. Should definitely change this. Each person should have to be checked off when they enter the area with their vest with them and shown how to put it on and blow the whistle and put the light on. Shame on Costa for not doing this. Alot of things will obviously change now because of this tragedy.

Then captain was a cowart and should be prosecuted to the fullest extent. He reminds me of the guy on the titanic that jumps into the lifeboat and lets the women and children drown because there was not enough places on the lifeboats.

I think that you ahould'have to'go'outside'to the exact location of,your muster station. Not inside a signing room or bar with your life est

Like I said something will definitely change. It always happen a when people'lose'their'lives

:o

[NormaNY]

I would never have believed that such an accident was possible in this modern day and age. With all the technology and crew training, we have a ship with an incompetent captain AND a crew that speaks no English AND have no idea what to do in an emergency? I know problems occur on planes, trains, and autos, and I have taken about 8 or 9 cruises without incident over the last 20 years, but the cruise I took last April, which was flawless-- that was my last one.

[dzcruisers]

 

Also, we're booked on our first S-class in a few weeks and I recall reading that the life vests are stored in a basket under the bed. Do they enforce some safety reg to be sure they're not blocked by our luggage?

 

j

Many people take them out of the basket and put them in the top of the closet!

[hulamoon]

I think of the two elderly gentleman who were found dead with their life perservers on near a resturant. Was that their muster station? Did they wait with faith in the crew to help evacuate them?

[kelmac]

I have to concur with the folks who say Celebrity should return to the practice of having the muster drill on the lifeboat deck with passengers wearing their life vests and mandatory participation (crew checking off the names of passengers from the manifest and checking rooms for hiding non-participants). The importance of the drill is a whole lot more real when, as was the case on HAL a few years ago, the horn is sounded and the captain orders the life boats to be lowered. I can remember a dead silence on the part of passengers as the boats dropped down to loading position. Suddenly it became real!

 

The last two Celebrity cruises I have been on the noise level of the passengers in the lounge where we were seated and who had already been gobbling up the sail away drinks, made it impossible for my wife or I to hear the instructions over the PA system.

 

Yes, the lifeboat stations may have to be changed if the ship is listing, etc. but at least the passengers have been informedwhat to do before the ship leaves port and know how to put on a life vest and where the life boats are located.

 

George +

 

George,

 

Can't have the muster drill on the life boat deck of a Solstice Class ship. There is only room for less than 1/2 of the passegers. They moved it inside because they need the added space. Even a more severe issue on the large Princess ships, as the promenade deck is less than 15' wide.

Holland America and Cunard do their muster drill on deck, as their wrap around promenade deck will hold 100% of the passengers.

 

I remember feeling really unsafe when I checked out the life boat deck of the Star Princess. Maybe enough room for 250 people on each side of the ship -- the ship holds 2,600+ passengers.

 

Kel

[kitty9]

I think of the two elderly gentleman who were found dead with their life perservers on near a resturant. Was that their muster station? Did they wait with faith in the crew to help evacuate them?

 

According to the London Daily Mail, yes, the men were near to their muster station.

[Tenn4ever]

It's not just 'who is in charge' fault. It's personal responsibility. Whenever I fly NO ONE pays attention to the flight attendent or the PA announcements. Most people are sleeping already or have ear phones on listening to 'whatever' when all the emergency info is given. Every time I fly I review the emergency directions and check out the under seat life vests and oxygen equipment overhead. Yes, I look like a nerd who has never flown but if it saves my life who cares. It's scary how unconcerned people are. :(

[hulamoon]

There are a certain percentage of passengers who could not help themselves on many cruises. Many place their trust in staff to keep them safe. if the gentlemen followed instructions to be peaceable and were forgotten or ignored, it is sad.

[msbptg]

The thing that has bothered me about Celebrity's drills the last few years, is that you don't know which lifeboat is yours... if a real emergency like yesterday's had occurred on my last cruise I have to honestly say, I would not have gone to my assigned muster station, as it was inside the MDR, which would not have been a safe location on a sinking/listing ship. In fact, it probably would have been underwater, due to it's location....I found HAL's muster drills to be more realistic, you actually take alternate stairways & are shown which lifeboat you're assigned to. I'm all for not taking the lifejackets, because I know people were getting hurt tripping on them, but realistically, in a situation where the ship is taking on water, do you really want to be inside the ship??

I don,t no what was being announced over the P.A. while all this was happening. You can,t stop human nature from taking its course with people panicing, but you would think that if the ship was run aground, common sence will tell you it could not sink, and the best course of action was to stay put and wait for rescue. I,m in shock that the ship never responded to the warnings with radar and gps telling those on the bridge that they where entering low water.

[Project_gal]

When you think about it, a muster drill would be more realistic if they turned off the lights, induced a list on the ship, and maybe blew some smoke through the ventilation system. But that would probably have an adverse effect on future bookings. ;)

 

You have a point. Years ago, I worked for a local authority and, as such, we always had a fire drill in Fire Safety Week [to set a good example] so we knew such a drill was coming. However, one year, there just happened to be a strong smell of burning [perhaps a kitchen mishap or bonfire somewhere - we never found out what]. That year, the drill was taken much more seriously.

 

Sue

[Project_gal]

I would never have believed that such an accident was possible in this modern day and age. With all the technology and crew training, we have a ship with an incompetent captain AND a crew that speaks no English AND have no idea what to do in an emergency? I know problems occur on planes, trains, and autos, and I have taken about 8 or 9 cruises without incident over the last 20 years, but the cruise I took last April, which was flawless-- that was my last one.

 

Out ovf about 4200 passengers and crew, there were 126 US citizens and 37 British on board [including 12 crew members]. Even with some other English speaking nationalities, English speakers were a very small minority. Please explain why the crew should speak English.

 

Sue

[Milhouse]

To respond to the original discussion, yes I think basic info (where life jackets can be found and where to muster to evacuate) provided by the muster drill is important but it doesn't have to get more complex than that.

 

IMO, a critical failure during the Costa tragedy is that they didn't start staging and evacuating earlier. When I get on a ship, I don't know where my muster station is, what the signal to muster is, etc.

However, beyond that, once things start further breaking down (visibility, communications, ship listing, etc) all rules start going out the window and you can't cover every scenario in a muster drill.

[Milhouse]

You can count me in on someone that doesn't always fully pays attention to the pre-flight safety instructions but case in point... we had three legs to get to FLL for our cruise (crazy reward pt travel), of which the plane for the 2nd and 3rd leg was the exact same plane and we were sitting in the exact same seats (we just needed to stop in IAH)... the safety instructions started to get a bit repetitive. :)

[BillB48]

Out ovf about 4200 passengers and crew, there were 126 US citizens and 37 British on board [including 12 crew members]. Even with some other English speaking nationalities, English speakers were a very small minority. Please explain why the crew should speak English.

 

Sue

 

While the Captain could certainly speak Italian to any of his Italian speaking crew, the chances are the crew speak many different languages, If we find there was a failure to communicate between the bridge and the rest of the ship, this is where it could have all started to come apart.

[oldmovieguy]

Anybody ever notice that, even after being on a cruise ship for days, many people still don't know which way to turn after getting off the elevator to go to their cabin? Now imagine at night in a real emergency with only emergency lighting working and the ship tilting and making noises.......

 

 

That is a VERY good point, MrsOldmovie used to laugh every time I turned left and started marching in the wrong direction, Not so funny now though.

[uktog]

Firstly can I say this is a tragic situation and one we will not know the real reasons for some time to come, if ever. I am sure all cruise lines are evaluating their current procedures and will be working with a large amount of other information and research data to support what they do, change etc even before any revised international maritime legislation is introduced.

 

I see many calls on this thread for changes and reasons give for and against change. I will wait and see what eventually emerges but would like to add in the following

 

Research follows the old adage " I hear and I forget, I see and I remember, I do and I understand"

 

On average we only retain 20% of information we hear , this figure increases to 50% for hear and see (i.e a video) provided the see exactly replicates the event we will face in the future

 

Our rate of retention reduces geomertrically the greater the amount of information we receive the less overall we can recall such that in a 5 minute briefing we will only recall 5% more content than we will from a 3 minute briefing

 

We are all influenced by the circumstances in which we receive the information - research shows higher levels are retained when we are in more comfortable surroundings. Sitting or standing in a bulky lifejacket may be very uncomfortable for many and reduce retention

 

All the above is influenced by our own learning styles (do we prefer to hear, read, see or do to learn) (no cruise ships cannot do lifeboat drills according to learning styles but it is a relevant consideration that whatever method they use may not work for a high % of their guests)

 

Actually the word drill is misleading for guests, it is a briefing, a drill is impossible, that involves elements of doing

 

And remember, even if Costa had done one and shown people where their lifeboats were, that information would have been irrelevant

 

And you do not try your lifejacket on during the safety briefing of a plane so why on a ship? (and how often did they have to sterilise jackets because people had been handling them, trying them on and worse still using the whistles?)

 

Finally how many people watch the video that is played continuously in their stateroom from embarkation day - that gives a lot of the information.

 

Suggestion (no idea if this is legal or what)

 

Show an enahnced version of that video at 15 minute slots in the theatre on embarkation day. The video could include reference to things like it may be dark so how you can navigate around in the dark, stairs may be out of use etc. Use a system that scans the seapass cards and require each person to attend before the ship sails swiping into the session when they arrive. Any who miss this can be followed up an eventually threatened with having to leave the ship if they do not attend a catch up session

 

There can be a general sounding of the alarm and a "drill" as is prior to sailaway but keep that brief and as a reinforcement to what has already been shown in the video.

 

 

And I agree what others say because having just been on a cruise and seen

 

so many people ask a question of a tour guide or cruise employee within 2 minutes of that information having already been clearly covered with them in their own first language - there will always be some who will not understand

 

several people questioning a Captains decision taken on the grounds of safety and continuing to go into an area they were asked to stay away from - there will always be some who know best and disregard instructions

 

a me first mindset is around even in the calmest of situations (i.e. pushing for the best seat in the bus, cramming into an already overful lift - there will always be human behaviour

 

 

But I do believe the tone of the ship is set by the Captain and maybe the less visible, less social, more directive Captain is actually better for you and down rating a Captain because you have not seen him around all the time is the wrong thing to be doing

[alaska_planner]

There are a certain percentage of passengers who could not help themselves on many cruises. Many place their trust in staff to keep them safe. if the gentlemen followed instructions to be peaceable and were forgotten or ignored, it is sad.

 

one of the elderly gentlemen found dead was traveling with his family - here's a quote from the italian press about the family:

 

"Among the distressing stories is that of Claudio Masi, who struggled to get his children, wife and mother onto lifeboats, but was unable to go back for his 85-year-old father, who was later found among the dead."

[Project_gal]

Firstly can I say this is a tragic situation and one we will not know the real reasons for some time to come, if ever. I am sure all cruise lines are evaluating their current procedures and will be working with a large amount of other information and research data to support what they do, change etc even before any revised international maritime legislation is introduced.

 

I see many calls on this thread for changes and reasons give for and against change. I will wait and see what eventually emerges but would like to add in the following

 

Research follows the old adage " I hear and I forget, I see and I remember, I do and I understand"

 

On average we only retain 20% of information we hear , this figure increases to 50% for hear and see (i.e a video) provided the see exactly replicates the event we will face in the future

 

Our rate of retention reduces geomertrically the greater the amount of information we receive the less overall we can recall such that in a 5 minute briefing we will only recall 5% more content than we will from a 3 minute briefing

 

We are all influenced by the circumstances in which we receive the information - research shows higher levels are retained when we are in more comfortable surroundings. Sitting or standing in a bulky lifejacket may be very uncomfortable for many and reduce retention

 

All the above is influenced by our own learning styles (do we prefer to hear, read, see or do to learn) (no cruise ships cannot do lifeboat drills according to learning styles but it is a relevant consideration that whatever method they use may not work for a high % of their guests)

 

Actually the word drill is misleading for guests, it is a briefing, a drill is impossible, that involves elements of doing

 

And remember, even if Costa had done one and shown people where their lifeboats were, that information would have been irrelevant

 

And you do not try your lifejacket on during the safety briefing of a plane so why on a ship? (and how often did they have to sterilise jackets because people had been handling them, trying them on and worse still using the whistles?)

 

Finally how many people watch the video that is played continuously in their stateroom from embarkation day - that gives a lot of the information.

 

Suggestion (no idea if this is legal or what)

 

Show an enahnced version of that video at 15 minute slots in the theatre on embarkation day. The video could include reference to things like it may be dark so how you can navigate around in the dark, stairs may be out of use etc. Use a system that scans the seapass cards and require each person to attend before the ship sails swiping into the session when they arrive. Any who miss this can be followed up an eventually threatened with having to leave the ship if they do not attend a catch up session

 

There can be a general sounding of the alarm and a "drill" as is prior to sailaway but keep that brief and as a reinforcement to what has already been shown in the video.

 

 

And I agree what others say because having just been on a cruise and seen

 

so many people ask a question of a tour guide or cruise employee within 2 minutes of that information having already been clearly covered with them in their own first language - there will always be some who will not understand

 

several people questioning a Captains decision taken on the grounds of safety and continuing to go into an area they were asked to stay away from - there will always be some who know best and disregard instructions

 

a me first mindset is around even in the calmest of situations (i.e. pushing for the best seat in the bus, cramming into an already overful lift - there will always be human behaviour

 

 

But I do believe the tone of the ship is set by the Captain and maybe the less visible, less social, more directive Captain is actually better for you and down rating a Captain because you have not seen him around all the time is the wrong thing to be doing

 

Ann

 

I read your post with interest because I had been thinking along similar lines especially as it has been clear from some posts on CC that people who have cruised a number of times still had not retained some of the information.

 

I like your idea of the video. Perhaps it could also be viewed via the Internet in advance of boarding. I have been wondering if it could then be followed up by an online test once on board. I have experienced these both for Anti-Money Laundering training at work and at the National Archives before being allowed a Readers Card. If ou know that you have to repeat the test until it is clear that you have retained the information, it improves the concentration during the "training" phase. Technology has probably reached the phase where this is feasible.

 

Sue

[Kancruze]

 

 

...But I do believe the tone of the ship is set by the Captain and maybe the less visible, less social, more directive Captain is actually better for you and down rating a Captain because you have not seen him around all the time is the wrong thing to be doing

 

A good point among many. The job of socializing should be left up to the "Social Director". The Captain and his First Officer should be more concerned with the business of piloting the ship. In this case it seems that the Captain was a bit of a socialite if reports can be believed. I've always been uneasy at the "Captains Dinner" and now I know why. This man holds 3 -4 thousands lives in his hands and here he is drinking wine and not paying attention to the business at hand.