Beware of Celebrity false advertising

[jaspersmommy]

To the OP - you have my most sincere condolences on your recent losses. I cannot even begin to imagine what you and your spouse are going through. I really hope you have a peaceful cruise and that the time away, the beauty of Hawaii and the pampering will be good for you both.

 

I sympathise with your situation regarding the fine print. Ever notice that when someone utters the words "fine print", it is usually with contempt? That is because the contents of the fine print are the conditions that are never favourable to the buyer. I'm sure that knowing what you know now, you'd like to have the opportunity to turn back the clock and read it. Most of us hate reading the fine print but yes, you need to. It's water under the bridge now. Chalk it up to experience, learn from it and then enjoy your cruise. Compared to what you've been through recently, it definitely is not worth sweating about.

 

Have a wonderful cruise.

[lysolqn]

I wasn't going to post again in this thread, but I wondered how many of you may have noticed that the Celebrity web site seems to be undergoing some revisions in the past week, and their staff did admit we may have fallen thru the crack during these changes. Indeed, when I spoke with the Celebrity gentleman purportedly in charge of the new program, he had trouble finding the "small print" himself.

 

Due to the situation, I have been playing quite close attention to the web site, and there have been changes to the 1, 2, 3 program descriptions almost daily. We did use a travel agent of many years' experience and he also had some difficulty during the past week or so getting answers from Celebrity as different staff members gave different answers. The original reason he was given for the denial of the promotion to us was because we had "already received a different OBC." When I told him we had not, he called Celebrity back, they checked our account and there was no previous credit as he had been told. Then he was told we booked 4 days too late to receive the promotion.

 

To the person who commented about February Hawaii cruisers not being entitled, try reading the February Hawaii cruise roll call, and see how many other passengers on the same cruise we are taking DID receive the promotion before you flame me for not reading the site carefully.

 

Though we do cruise about once every year or two, we customarily use the smaller, more academicly inclined lines. Due to circumstance alluded to by the previous poster, we felt a need to get out of town sooner rather than later, and this cruise was going to the right place at the right time. Since we drink little and intend to have our meals privately, the offer was NOT particularly important. We were going to use the credit for tips or laundry. What offends me is the small print that contradicts the broader, unqualified statement which changes on an almost daily basis.

 

Certainly, if one bases his or her interpretation on what appears on the web site today, one might be justified in the attacks on the OP. But can any of you vouch for what was there a week ago? indeed, there is one CC member on the same cruise as we are who DID receive the promotion who made her reservation less than a week before we did and she cannot understand why she received the promo and we did not.

 

And, yes, our reason for purchasing a suite, was, as Northern Aurora mentioned, due to two deaths in 3 months, one, our 32 year old daughter. But we do understand most people cruise to party, so we bought a suite so we could rest in the sun on a private veranda, have everything done for us, eat our meals there and not inflict our sadness on others.

 

We try to be considerate, and while we are not religious, we do believe in karma. I can only assume some of you who so self richeously flamed my OP, will prove this belief correct.

.

 

Perhaps at a different time and under different circumstances your reaction would have likewise been different. Notwithstanding, I echo the sentiment of others and hope your cruise brings you peace and consolation.

[A Sixth?]

As you have learned any negative comments towards Celebrity on this board--one gets flamed!! Not sure why, it happens over and over!! Anyone that has paid attention to the 1,2,3 GO promotion, knows it has been a complete gaggle!! Not sure why people side with a large corporation, instead of their fellow cruiser...as Cruising is suppose to be so social, buddy like....Guess not. Best of luck

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but the OP booked through a TA who told her that she'd get the 123 thing when she wouldn't.

 

The OP went after the wrong company, Celebrity.... I'd be mad at the TA who as a "professional" should know what cruises qualified and which did not.

 

edit, hope everybody took note as to the TA that screwed up.... I did

 

2nd edit... The headline of the OP's post wasn't "TA screwed up BEWARE" it is "Beware of Celebrity false advertising" Talk about being inflammatory and judge and jury.

 

Lastly, did the OP get a great price last minute?

[Oville]

Wasn't me who pointed out the exception, but the 123 deal was extended, and the extension changed a few of the cruises which would be included.

 

You booked very late, did you get a "deal" at least on the price of your cabin?

 

I guess I'm asking did you score a bigger deal by booking last minute?

 

Seems to me your TA screwed up big if they told you you'd get something you weren't entitled to. Thanks for the heads up as to who they are so I can stick to my preferred TA

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but the OP booked through a TA who told her that she'd get the 123 thing when she wouldn't.

 

The OP went after the wrong company, Celebrity.... I'd be mad at the TA who as a "professional" should know what cruises qualified and which did not.

 

edit, hope everybody took note as to the TA that screwed up.... I did

 

2nd edit... The headline of the OP's post wasn't "TA screwed up BEWARE" it is "Beware of Celebrity false advertising" Talk about being inflammatory and judge and jury.

 

Lastly, did the OP get a great price last minute?

 

Have you bothered to read the OP's post 45 above?

 

Begete sorry for your loses and hope your get away brings you some peace.

[bjm07]

Weighing in on this topic, I recently booked a cruise that I spotted for an excellent, low price. I carefully checked to see if this cruise was in the 123 promotion and it was! I could hardly believe our good luck that it was; 15 days of free drinks! So, I called up and booked and asked how I could get the promotion and was told that it was only for category 8 and higher. Oh! I was deflated because I thought I had read the terms of the offer and I had missed that. I swear that when I earlier read the conditions, I didn't notice that point. I went back and re-read what I believe I previously looked at and there it was. So, too bad, we don't get the promo. I'm not crying; the purchase price was a very good deal plus we snagged one of those new M-class staterooms on deck 11, although an inside, but still a great spot. And, lesson re-learned: read and re-read the small print. And!!! we are going on a cruise that I hadn't expected to be doing less than a month ago.

Colour me happy!

Barbara

[euromaster]

OK all you smartypants out there who castigated the OP for not reading the fine print....what is a Fivestar or Group X program rate? The truth is the 123 program was misleading in many respects....so have some sympathy for the OP. Perhaps the most ridiculous comment was that she could be sued for slander....yeah right....Celebrity is going to sue a consumer for venting on a cruise critic message board. Have a little empathy for someone who may be naive about understanding "fine print". Celebrity knew exactly what it was doing....and got the original poster to sign up for this cruise...when chances are they wouldn't have gotten them onboard without their "fine print" disclaimer.

[euromaster]

It's called taking responsibility for one's own actions or in this case, inaction. After all, it's "Let the buyer beware," not "Let the seller beware!"

 

Sir....with all due respect...you have it wrong. It's no longer "let the buyer beware"....but rather "let the seller inform". So I fully disagree with your comment.....the seller now has a duty to fully inform the buyer.....not hide it under some "fivestar program" that who the hell knows what a "fivestar" program is. Why do you think when you listen to all those drug commercials on TV they spend more time telling you about all the bad side effects of a drug as opposed to all the good things about the drug. Forget about buyer beware.....companies know they're opening themselves up to liability if they don't fully inform.

[ForeverAtSea]

OK all you smartypants out there who castigated the OP for not reading the fine print....what is a Fivestar or Group X program rate? The truth is the 123 program was misleading in many respects....so have some sympathy for the OP. Perhaps the most ridiculous comment was that she could be sued for slander....yeah right....Celebrity is going to sue a consumer for venting on a cruise critic message board. Have a little empathy for someone who may be naive about understanding "fine print". Celebrity knew exactly what it was doing....and got the original poster to sign up for this cruise...when chances are they wouldn't have gotten them onboard without their "fine print" disclaimer.

 

1. It is not necessary to know what a Fivestar or Group X rate IS...it is just necessary to know that there are certain rates that DO qualify for the promotion and therefore, certain rates that DO NOT. This was not a new cruiser; anyone, such as the OP, who has purchased ten or more cruises, knows that there can be a variety of cruise promotions happening at any given time and not every cruise is included in every promotion, and even for the cruises that ARE included, not every category of cabin will qualify, usually dependent on the selling price of the particular category.
   
2. The 123-GO promotion was a very generous offer, but it was designed to offset the cost for people who purchased at the "rack rate" or "suggested retail price" (i.e. the FiveStar or GroupX rate). If you were purchasing at a sale price, or were taking advantage of some other OBC offer, such as a Celebrity Passages offer or stock-holder credit, you couldn't combine it with the 123-GO offer. You could choose whichever offer was of the most benefit to you. There is absolutely nothing underhanded about that. It simply gives people options.
   
3. Celebrity is certainly not required to sell the cruise at a loss. So if the OP purchased their suite at a discounted price, as they most assuredly did, two weeks before the sail date, then they simply weren't eligible for the 123-GO promotion. Period. When the TA quotes a price, he is looking at the Celebrity codes for the particular price. He knows absolutely if it is a FiveStar price and would quality, or if it is not. Either way, during such a promotion, he should absolutely inform the client. The same would be true for any Celebrity Vacation Planner. They would see, right before their eyes, whether the price the client was paying would qualify for the promotion or not. The problem here wasn't anything that Celebrity did, but the way in which it was presented by the TA, otherwise the OP would have known what she WAS and WAS NOT entitled to.
   
4. The OP had a TA who certainly should have read the fine print. This is a major promotion in ANY travel agent's arsenal, and it is absolutely their responsibility to be sure the client has understood the terms of the offer.
   
5. Font size on any print ad follows a certain pattern: Largest font to grab the attention, medium font to lay out the major points, smaller font to explain the details. Ignore those details at your peril. You are not going to the corner store and buying a quart of milk here. There are going to be details, and it behooves any consumer to take a bit of time to know what they are. There is nothing underhanded in Celebrity's practice here.
   
6. As a customer, if you are going to be looking at these details on a computer screen and if you are challenged in any way to read those details clearly, then there are a few computer tools that you are going to have to learn how to use to increase the size of the font. If this is not possible for you, then I suggest that you go into a bricks-and-mortar office and see the print copy of the offer. Every travel agent will have access to a print copy of the detailed offer that was sent to the agency from the cruise line.
   
7. It is not possible that the "Celebrity gentleman purportedly in charge of the new program, [ ] had trouble finding the "small print" himself." That fine print has been at the bottom of every version of the 123-offer. Unless the person was trying to read the webpage on his I-phone, he couldn't have missed the fine print.
   

My heart goes out to the OP and I can more than understand her grief, and how this whole misunderstanding must be so distressful for her and her family. I hope that when she has a little time to reflect, she will realize that the problem in this scenario was not with Celebrity. I hope that, between now and the time the cruise sails, she will be able to gain a little more perspective on what the real problem was in this case, and will come to feel better about her cruise. I sincerely wish her whatever peace and solace the sea can provide.

[lysolqn]

Sir....with all due respect...you have it wrong. It's no longer "let the buyer beware"....but rather "let the seller inform". So I fully disagree with your comment.....the seller now has a duty to fully inform the buyer.....not hide it under some "fivestar program" that who the hell knows what a "fivestar" program is. Why do you think when you listen to all those drug commercials on TV they spend more time telling you about all the bad side effects of a drug as opposed to all the good things about the drug. Forget about buyer beware.....companies know they're opening themselves up to liability if they don't fully inform.

 

Of course! It's always someone else's fault!

[rnrcruzin]

The pro's and con's of this offer are all over the CC board. In my case I purchased our cruise prior to Christmas as a present for my wife. If my TA knew that this offer was coming she didn't tell me. Would I have delayed my decision to purchase when I did, maybe, I don’t know. Realistically, I suppose, on any given cruise there are travelers that got some good deal that the other travelers didn’t.

I did call Celebrity as ask if I could get this deal. The CSR I spoke with must have answered this question probably a hundred times the day I spoke with her. The answer was fairly automatic. I was told to contact my TA and she should contact Celebrity and together they would determine how much more I would pay to get this special offer - too bad for us.

With any offer there are those standing in the candy shop and those standing on the other side of the window looking in.

We’re still going on our cruise. We’re still going to have fun. And I’m still going to get kissed by my wife on the deck at night. Lucky me.

[A Sixth?]

Have you bothered to read the OP's post 45 above?

 

Begete sorry for your loses and hope your get away brings you some peace.

 

Yes I did. Did you? :rolleyes:

 

She says there is one CC member on the same cruise as we are who DID receive the promotion who made her reservation less than a week before we did and she cannot understand why she received the promo and we did not."

 

That makes perfect since since booking made on or after Jan 28 made February cruises ineligible. The OP booked the first days of Feb...

 

Bottom line I do feel sympathy for the OP, who doesn't like getting in on a great deal... but of coarse there are people who booked the cruise who got the 123 bonus because they booked BEFORE the cut-off date.

 

My question again is why doesn't the OP go to town on their TA who dropped the ball and should have known the cut off date had past on the promotion for her particular cruise. Accusing Celebrity of false advertising is not very appropriate.

[Chirpbird]

Hate to say it but it's very clearly stated on the promotion that it's only on select sailings.

 

I actually went through a "sample booking" using the links on that page. I didn't want to select a cruise or cabin where the offer didn't apply. However, I went even further...I called to make my reservation. I'm not happy with a "We'll pay you back" approach to a marketing promotion, and the online booking was charging me $750 deposit (3 pax) vs. the $250 deposit I was actually charged on the phone.

[bplazo]

I really despise the small print since I do not see that well anymore. OP, sorry for your loss and hope you have a nice cruise.

[JFontaine]

As a long time member of this forum I find some of the responses on this thread just awful, especially those from the most prolific posters. To the original poster, I understand your disappointment, I thank you for calling the fine print to the attention of others who might benefit therefrom, and I wish you a safe and peaceful trip.

[savuti94]

The original post title spurred my interest. I just got finished perusing all 60 something posts before mine.

 

I am a soon to be first time cruiser. This is not to say my wife and I aren't experienced travelers. I joined this website/bulletin board at the urging of a friend of ours who has taken over 100 cruises. She really feels the website is a really great way to gather the facts about the ins and outs of cruising. I pretty much agree with that assessment. The one thing I feel compelled to remark about is that the general tone of responses can be fairly terse and aggressive at times as demonstrated in this thread. I have actually felt sorry for some OPs after reading responses. I am really hoping this is not the attitude that we will encounter from our fellow travelers on our cruise. Happily, 95% of the responses to my questions here have been polite and respectful.

 

Looking forward very much to our Alaska cruise during May! We hope to meet some wonderful and interesting fellow travelers.

[Orator]

The original post title spurred my interest. I just got finished perusing all 60 something posts before mine.

 

I am a soon to be first time cruiser. This is not to say my wife and I aren't experienced travelers. I joined this website/bulletin board at the urging of a friend of ours who has taken over 100 cruises. She really feels the website is a really great way to gather the facts about the ins and outs of cruising. I pretty much agree with that assessment. The one thing I feel compelled to remark about is that the general tone of responses can be fairly terse and aggressive at times as demonstrated in this thread. I have actually felt sorry for some OPs after reading responses. I am really hoping this is not the attitude that we will encounter from our fellow travelers on our cruise. Happily, 95% of the responses to my questions here have been polite and respectful.

 

Looking forward very much to our Alaska cruise during May! We hope to meet some wonderful and interesting fellow travelers.

 

I've been on a few cruises and have met a large number of posters. They are a wonderful group of people who love to cruise and pleased to help others. The tone of the first post generally sets the tone for the thread.

[phoenix_dream]

Didn't say or infer that. Simply observed that the tone of a thread is often set by the initial post.

I agree with you. When someone decides to put forth a post that is very negative and inflamatory, why are they surprised when people also react to that post with emotion as well. I sincerely sympathize with the personal losses the OP has suffered and wish them and their family peace and comfort. And I am willingly opening myself up to strong rebuttals here I know, but the point of the post had to do with frustration with Celebrity. Bringing family hardships into the picture is really totally off-point. That said, now that we have more awareness of what terrible tragedy has been suffered, I'm sure we are happy to cut the OP some slack in consideration that the post may very well have been made when overwhelming emotion was taking over reasonable debate.

[euromaster]

Thanks for all the information and for the softer tone to the OP. Now here's my question: how do you know the Fivestar rate is the "rack rate". And if it's the rack rate or "suggested retail price" as you say....that means I can't hope for a reduction in price to the Fivestar rate before the cancellation period kicks in. Because as soon as there's a reduction....it's no longer a fivestar (rack) rate.

 

So if you're correct and I want the 123 package there won't be any possibility of a reduction in the cabin price if I want to keep the 123 program. The only possibility of a price reduction before the cancellation period is if I give up my 123 benefit and go to a different program.

 

And finally how is the consumer to know that a fivestar rate and Group X rate is the full price brochure rate. Why don't they just call it the brochure rate so it's clear to the consumer.....don't answer that question. I know why.

 

Alll of this information is important to me because I'm trying to compare apples with apples. On a prior cruise, when a price reduction took effect I was able to upgrade from concierge to aqua...and at a cheaper rate to boot. So if I understand you correctly, that ain't gonna happen here...unless I give up my 123 package.

1. It is not necessary to know what a Fivestar or Group X rate IS...it is just necessary to know that there are certain rates that DO qualify for the promotion and therefore, certain rates that DO NOT. This was not a new cruiser; anyone, such as the OP, who has purchased ten or more cruises, knows that there can be a variety of cruise promotions happening at any given time and not every cruise is included in every promotion, and even for the cruises that ARE included, not every category of cabin will qualify, usually dependent on the selling price of the particular category.
   
2. The 123-GO promotion was a very generous offer, but it was designed to offset the cost for people who purchased at the "rack rate" or "suggested retail price" (i.e. the FiveStar or GroupX rate). If you were purchasing at a sale price, or were taking advantage of some other OBC offer, such as a Celebrity Passages offer or stock-holder credit, you couldn't combine it with the 123-GO offer. You could choose whichever offer was of the most benefit to you. There is absolutely nothing underhanded about that. It simply gives people options.
   
3. Celebrity is certainly not required to sell the cruise at a loss. So if the OP purchased their suite at a discounted price, as they most assuredly did, two weeks before the sail date, then they simply weren't eligible for the 123-GO promotion. Period. When the TA quotes a price, he is looking at the Celebrity codes for the particular price. He knows absolutely if it is a FiveStar price and would quality, or if it is not. Either way, during such a promotion, he should absolutely inform the client. The same would be true for any Celebrity Vacation Planner. They would see, right before their eyes, whether the price the client was paying would qualify for the promotion or not. The problem here wasn't anything that Celebrity did, but the way in which it was presented by the TA, otherwise the OP would have known what she WAS and WAS NOT entitled to.
   
4. The OP had a TA who certainly should have read the fine print. This is a major promotion in ANY travel agent's arsenal, and it is absolutely their responsibility to be sure the client has understood the terms of the offer.
   
5. Font size on any print ad follows a certain pattern: Largest font to grab the attention, medium font to lay out the major points, smaller font to explain the details. Ignore those details at your peril. You are not going to the corner store and buying a quart of milk here. There are going to be details, and it behooves any consumer to take a bit of time to know what they are. There is nothing underhanded in Celebrity's practice here.
   
6. As a customer, if you are going to be looking at these details on a computer screen and if you are challenged in any way to read those details clearly, then there are a few computer tools that you are going to have to learn how to use to increase the size of the font. If this is not possible for you, then I suggest that you go into a bricks-and-mortar office and see the print copy of the offer. Every travel agent will have access to a print copy of the detailed offer that was sent to the agency from the cruise line.
   
7. It is not possible that the "Celebrity gentleman purportedly in charge of the new program, [ ] had trouble finding the "small print" himself." That fine print has been at the bottom of every version of the 123-offer. Unless the person was trying to read the webpage on his I-phone, he couldn't have missed the fine print.
   

My heart goes out to the OP and I can more than understand her grief, and how this whole misunderstanding must be so distressful for her and her family. I hope that when she has a little time to reflect, she will realize that the problem in this scenario was not with Celebrity. I hope that, between now and the time the cruise sails, she will be able to gain a little more perspective on what the real problem was in this case, and will come to feel better about her cruise. I sincerely wish her whatever peace and solace the sea can provide.

[Andy]

Thanks for all the information and for the softer tone to the OP. Now here's my question: how do you know the Fivestar rate is the "rack rate". And if it's the rack rate or "suggested retail price" as you say....that means I can't hope for a reduction in price to the Fivestar rate before the cancellation period kicks in. Because as soon as there's a reduction....it's no longer a fivestar (rack) rate.

 

So if you're correct and I want the 123 package there won't be any possibility of a reduction in the cabin price if I want to keep the 123 program. The only possibility of a price reduction before the cancellation period is if I give up my 123 benefit and go to a different program.

 

And finally how is the consumer to know that a fivestar rate and Group X rate is the full price brochure rate. Why don't they just call it the brochure rate so it's clear to the consumer.....don't answer that question. I know why.

 

Alll of this information is important to me because I'm trying to compare apples with apples. On a prior cruise, when a price reduction took effect I was able to upgrade from concierge to aqua...and at a cheaper rate to boot. So if I understand you correctly, that ain't gonna happen here...unless I give up my 123 package.

 

Hi Euromaster,

 

As far as I'm aware, if a PRE-cancellation period price drop occurs, and if the price drop is a Five Star or GroupX rate, per Celebrity's 123 GO FAQ : http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1764876 , you should be able to retain the 123 GO benefit.

 

After final payment (during the cancellation period), it becomes more complicated - but then again, in recent months, (even without taking 123 GO into consideration), little is possible post final payment. If I'm understanding your question correctly, in this scenario, the best you could hope for, is a price drop that retains Five Star or GroupX, where you could possibly upgrade to a higher priced cabin, while *possibly* retaining 123 GO. With that said, I'm not entirely certain if this is possible during the cancellation period, but it's worth inquiring about, either now, or when the situation arises.

 

I hope this helps. Enjoy your Cruise !

[Ex-Airbalancer]

Thanks for all the information and for the softer tone to the OP. Now here's my question: how do you know the Fivestar rate is the "rack rate". And if it's the rack rate or "suggested retail price" as you say....that means I can't hope for a reduction in price to the Fivestar rate before the cancellation period kicks in. Because as soon as there's a reduction....it's no longer a fivestar (rack) rate.

 

So if you're correct and I want the 123 package there won't be any possibility of a reduction in the cabin price if I want to keep the 123 program. The only possibility of a price reduction before the cancellation period is if I give up my 123 benefit and go to a different program.

 

And finally how is the consumer to know that a fivestar rate and Group X rate is the full price brochure rate. Why don't they just call it the brochure rate so it's clear to the consumer.....don't answer that question. I know why.

 

Alll of this information is important to me because I'm trying to compare apples with apples. On a prior cruise, when a price reduction took effect I was able to upgrade from concierge to aqua...and at a cheaper rate to boot. So if I understand you correctly, that ain't gonna happen here...unless I give up my 123 package.

 

Euromaster , you have to ask your northern friends for the information :p

The only way to know what the rate is by phoning and talking to a person

Or make sure you do not check off seniors or state box

If the price is high , then it is a five star rate

The OP should be upset at their travel agent

 

Most seniors rate appears to be 5 star rate minus the cost of the classic package

 

Remember your bang for the buck rule :D

[jhans24]

"Will the 123 Go Promotion apply to this cruise?" We just booked two days ago. I can't tell you how many times we asked that question while talking to TA's and Celebrity on the phone or via Email.

 

Plowing into something first and then asking questions afterwards seems very haphazard to me.

[lovetocruiseinvirginia]

I am sorry but I do not "buy" it is your fault for not reading between the lines. See my post under the 123 thread love to cruise in virginia. What would I expect from Celelbrity, I would expect them to honor their promotion even if it was off by one day. For goodness sakes we are paying a premium price for what is supposed to be premium cruise line. For those of us that are repeat cruisers, this is the first event that has come up with Celebrity. Now we will all read between the lines, ask the direct questions about pricing, and be very aware of every kind of deal. Sorry, but in the past that was not necessary to deal with Celebrity. And yes, I did go and get a travel agent, one we met on board, because I did not feel like I could deal with Celebirty on their level anymore. what a shame, but of well, that is what it has come to. I sympathize with you, the pricing thing happened to us on our last trip. The day after the amount was due in full, which we made payment, the price dropped and we were just out of luck. Just everyone be eagle eyes and don't take for granted that you are deling with the first class.

[Ma Bell]

It's always going to be "off" by one day for someone. How do you ever draw the line? With this reasoning there would never be an end to a promotion.

[A Sixth?]

It's always going to be "off" by one day for someone. How do you ever draw the line? With this reasoning there would never be an end to a promotion.

 

I wish this 123 promotion would never end.

 

It is their best so far IMHO and glad I got in on two cruises that I now get the free package... too bad I won't on another but that's the way it goes...

[Ma Bell]

It's a good promotion but the truth is there's never a free lunch. The prices for cruises with the promotion are higher and you can't take advantage of upgrades close to sailing without losing the promotion. It's good, but not as good as everyone thinks. LOL