Major changes at Carnival Corp!

[avalon1025]

"The newly formed Holland America Group will include Princess Cruises in their portfolio of companies. The expanded division also includes Holland America Line, Seabourn Cruise Line and Holland America/Princess Alaska land operations. The new Holland America Group operates a combined total of 41 cruise ships with over 36,000 employees worldwide. Stein Kruse, currently president and CEO of Holland America Line, is being appointed CEO of the Holland America Group, adding to his current responsibilities of Holland America Line and Seabourn"

 

Is this the final step in the repositioning of Princess as a notch below HAL?

[Pam in CA]

I didn't infer that from the announcement because after all, Seabourn isn't a notch below either HAL or Princess.

[rkmw]

"The newly formed Holland America Group will include Princess Cruises in their portfolio of companies. The expanded division also includes Holland America Line, Seabourn Cruise Line and Holland America/Princess Alaska land operations. The new Holland America Group operates a combined total of 41 cruise ships with over 36,000 employees worldwide. Stein Kruse, currently president and CEO of Holland America Line, is being appointed CEO of the Holland America Group, adding to his current responsibilities of Holland America Line and Seabourn"

 

Is this the final step in the repositioning of Princess as a notch below HAL?

 

the moderator on facebook stated nothing will change in regards to loyalty programs

[MarkSeattle]

I didn't infer that from the announcement because after all, Seabourn isn't a notch below either HAL or Princess.

 

Same here.

 

It's just a shuffle of execs.

 

Princess CEO moves up to corporate. HAL CEO takes on more lines. Princess back fills with a new President reporting to the new group CEO...

[avalon1025]

I didn't infer that from the announcement because after all, Seabourn isn't a notch below either HAL or Princess.

 

Sorry, that's exactly what I thought: Seabourn luxury, HAL premium, Princess mid market. Totally makes sense to have tiered brands. Why would HAL want competition for their own brand under their own umbrella ?

[eroller]

This could very well be a turning point for Princess. Let's hope that this change is a positive change. Maybe Jan will surprise us :)

 

 

I personally don't' expect a lot of change. Princess is already positioned as a mass-market line even though they like to call themselves "premium". Prices are often just as inexpensive as Carnival Cruise Lines and the ships carry just as many passengers.

[eroller]

Sorry, that's exactly what I thought: Seabourn luxury, HAL premium, Princess mid market. Totally makes sense to have tiered brands. Why would HAL want competition for their own brand under their own umbrella ?

 

 

Have you sailed HAL lately? I certainly don't consider them anymore "premium" than Princess. Other than the ships being smaller, I actually prefer Princess and feel overall they offer a better and more consistent experience.

[avalon1025]

I think Princess has been a brand looking for an identity for many years and where to fit in, though I have not sailed holland in a few years, they and their marketing team consider themselves premium (true on board or not). Maybe they will find their spot under holland Americas leadership

Edited November 7, 2013 by avalon1025

[KruzPrincess]

Sorry, I just don't see HAL as being a class above Princess. Celebrity considers themselves a premium cruise line, but the cruise experience there is not that different. All these mid-range cruise lines are more alike than different. The news report is just a corporate shuffle that won't affect any of us.

[rdsqrl]

I think Princess has been a brand looking for an identity for many years and where to fit in, though I have not sailed holland in a few years, they and their marketing team consider themselves premium (true on board or not). Maybe they will find their spot under holland Americas leadership

I have no idea what you're talking about. Princess has a pretty consistent brand, and has had since the 1970s. I don't think they need to "find their spot," and I doubt they need Holland America's leadership to do it (unless they're looking for leadership in how to position themselves as the line of choice for the del Boca Vista set). HAL's marketing is hardly all that and a bag of chips.

[eroller]

I think Princess has been a brand looking for an identity for many years and where to fit in, though I have not sailed holland in a few years, they and their marketing team consider themselves premium (true on board or not). Maybe they will find their spot under holland Americas leadership

 

 

It's funny, everything you just described about Princess is exactly how I feel about HAL. HAL seems lost to me, stuck between trying to appease their very senior core clientele and trying to appeal to a younger crowd. This is something they have struggled with for years, ever since they had the Olsen Twins christen one of their ships (boy was that a pathetic attempt). When ZUIDERDAM came out the decor was jarring (aka tacky) and I believe the ship was slated for year round Caribbean cruises. That didn't last long and the decor has since been toned down. No matter how hard HAL tries to appeal to a younger clientele it just doesn't work, so why bother? Their next new build will be close to 100,000 gt, quite large for the core HAL regulars who prefer smaller ships. I also think the onboard decor will go a whole new direction, again to give the perception of being a more trendy line to attract younger clientele (like their biggest competitor Celebrity has done). It's been the failed theme of HAL for years now it seems, but perhaps this latest new build will change all that? Doubtful I would say.

 

Regarding standards on HAL (food, service, entertainment, accommodations), well IMO opinion it's nothing to write home about. I did a crossing on ROTTERDAM and a Caribbean cruise on NIEUW AMSTERDAM fairly recently. In both cases I left feeling apathetic. It wasn't bad by any means, but nothing left a lasting impression either.

 

To me, Princess has a rock solid, middle of the road reputation. They also offer one of the most consistent products at sea. Pretty much you sail on one Princess ship you have sailed them all. I personally consider that a very boring approach, but Princess loyalists seem to love the familiar surroundings no matter what ship they board. I think that is one reason the new RP is being met with so much opposition. She goes against the grain that so many Princess loyalists have come to expect. Although Carnival Corp. doesn't separate out earnings for various brands, I've often heard that Princess is the highest performing North American brand and that HAL tends to struggle a bit.

 

I think this new reporting structure will have very little impact on Princess and was implemented for a few reasons. One it provided a chance for Howard Frank to retire. Two it limits the number of direct reports to new CEO Arnold Donald. Three and most importantly, it relieves some of the pressure for Carnival Corp. brands to compete amongst themselves and instead compete with brands outside the parent company.

 

Ernie

[westwind6371]

We sailed on the Noordham last January, after 17 Princess cruises. We prefered Princess in appearance, service, food, Lido deck, and entertainment. We found the rooms a little larger, and the tub was nice, but overall the ship seemed darker inside and narrower. Service was OK, but not on a par with Princess. We would book HAL again only for great price and itinerary.

 

We have two Emerald 10 day and one Star Princess 15 day booked in the next several months if that says anything.

 

fair winds

Dave

[Host Jazzbeau]

I think this new reporting structure will have very little impact on Princess and was implemented for a few reasons. One it provided a chance for Howard Frank to retire. Two it limits the number of direct reports to new CEO Arnold Donald. Three and most importantly, it relieves some of the pressure for Carnival Corp. brands to compete amongst themselves and instead compete with brands outside the parent company.

Ernie

 

But that's the worry being raised: Princess and HAL are both mid-range lines; if you want to limit competition between them, you have to position one above the other -- and with HAL in charge, doesn't it seem more likely that HAL will be positioned above Princess?

[Coral]

I think Princess has been a brand looking for an identity for many years and where to fit in, though I have not sailed holland in a few years, they and their marketing team consider themselves premium (true on board or not). Maybe they will find their spot under holland Americas leadership

 

It's funny, everything you just described about Princess is exactly how I feel about HAL. HAL seems lost to me, stuck between trying to appease their very senior core clientele and trying to appeal to a younger crowd. ...................

 

 

To me, Princess has a rock solid, middle of the road reputation. They also offer one of the most consistent products at sea. Pretty much you sail on one Princess ship you have sailed them all. I personally consider that a very boring approach, but Princess loyalists seem to love the familiar surroundings no matter what ship they board. I think that is one reason the new RP is being met with so much opposition. She goes against the grain that so many Princess loyalists have come to expect. Although Carnival Corp. doesn't separate out earnings for various brands, I've often heard that Princess is the highest performing North American brand and that HAL tends to struggle a bit.

 

 

I actually agree with Avalon that Princess has been searching for their identity and who their clientele is since Carnival Corp bought them out. They have struggled to fit into the "corporate structure of Carnival Corp" and no one knows where they are positioned in relation to HAL.

 

I see Ernie's points. I remember when the Zuiderdam came out, HAL was trying to appeal to a younger generation and I don't think it ever happened, and it angered the HAL faithful.

 

It will be interesting to see how the new restructure changes things. And to think it won't change things is unrealistic IMO. If anything, there is a new leadership at Princess and I hope it changes things for the better!

Edited November 7, 2013 by Coral

[Coral]

I personally don't' expect a lot of change. Princess is already positioned as a mass-market line even though they like to call themselves "premium". Prices are often just as inexpensive as Carnival Cruise Lines and the ships carry just as many passengers.

 

Oh sure, burst my bubble! :) Just saying that it has been awhile since there has been leadership changes like this. If Jan would want to change something - there is the opportunity. It is entirely possible that she will continue the downgrade of the line that has continued the past several years. Just hoping for the opposite!

[tjwa]

Hi All

 

would think Princess may well go volume over quality.

 

 

yours Shogun

 

P&O UK are at that stage now.

[eroller]

But that's the worry being raised: Princess and HAL are both mid-range lines; if you want to limit competition between them, you have to position one above the other -- and with HAL in charge, doesn't it seem more likely that HAL will be positioned above Princess?

 

 

You can try to create a perception for certain, but the reality is at least for now, that the two lines are more similar than different. The only advantage that HAL has over Princess in being "premium" is that its ships are smaller, but they are getting bigger and bigger. Certainly the food, service, accommodations, and entertainment is no better on HAL and I don't anticipate them upgrading any of that. Already there is heavy discounting to fill the ships, so it's clear that the public is not willing to pay more for this so-called premium experience. This has been the problem all along with lines that like to bill themselves as premium. Celebrity is finally getting to a point where it's been able to increase yields and people are willing to pay more, but this has taken years and a lot of work. HAL already bills itself as "premium" so that is already how they position themselves. I don't really buy the premium claim but so be it. Princess in the past has also liked to bill itself as premium, but this probably hasn't been the case for a good ten years or so and most people in the industry know it. They are clearly mass-market like Carnival Cruise Lines but the atmosphere onboard is more subdued.

 

I still don't think we will see any major changes at Princess as obviously they are doing quite well or new ships would not have been ordered. Same with HAL. What we may see is some new marketing terminology that positions Princess between mass-market Carnival and so-called premium HAL, or at least tries to create that perception. Basically all fluff but no substance.

 

Ernie

[e2011]

they are all owned by Carnival Corp & PLC at the end of the day…..

[curiouscat]

Holland America and Princess compete with each other in the marketplace, particularly in Alaska. With you reporting to Stein Kruse, who heads up Holland America, how will this work? Will the brands become more closely aligned?

 

 

 

We see an opportunity to collaborate more so we can further clarify the two very distinct brand propositions. The intention is that we actually put more space between brands in terms of messaging and tone and product offerings.

 

Stein [Kruse] can better speak to how he intends to run the group but what I can say is that we believe it’s a great opportunity to further clarify the brand positioning vis-à-vis our competition as well as with Holland America.

 

The intent is absolutely not to make them more similar – quite the opposite. Both brands have strong histories, legacies and very loyal past passengers. And we want to make sure and build on that for both brands.

[Ethel5]

I actually agree with Avalon that Princess has been searching for their identity and who their clientele is since Carnival Corp bought them out. They have struggled to fit into the "corporate structure of Carnival Corp" and no one knows where they are positioned in relation to HAL...................SNIP.........................................................

 

I agree! Princess has been struggling to find a niche since Carnival bought them out. They want to keep us loyalists but also appeal to the party ship type. If you go way back in my posts, you will see that I said the same thing years ago! I hope they don't mess with my Princess.

[eroller]

I agree! Princess has been struggling to find a niche since Carnival bought them out. They want to keep us loyalists but also appeal to the party ship type. If you go way back in my posts, you will see that I said the same thing years ago! I hope they don't mess with my Princess.

 

 

I think Princess changed direction far before Carnival bought them out. It started with the SUN PRINCESS, largest cruise ship in the world at the time of her launch, then continued with GRAND PRINCESS, again the largest at the time of her launch. These ships were designed and built pre-Carnival. Clearly by going in the direction of such large high density ships, Princess was already leaving behind its roots as a truly premium line and entering the mass-market arena to complete with the likes of NCL, Carnival, and Royal Caribbean. Back in the 80's, Princess was competed with and was priced alongside such lines as Royal Viking and Sitmar. When Crystal was formed they even copied the ROYAL PRINCESS (1984) design and Princess then competed with Crystal. With the Sun and Grand Class, all that changed and it was a new direction for Princess.

 

I feel Princess had chartered its course and has known its niche for a long time now. They are clearly a middle of the road product offering consistency that appeals to the slightly higher end of the mass-market.

 

Ernie

Edited November 7, 2013 by eroller

[Coral]

I agree! Princess has been struggling to find a niche since Carnival bought them out. They want to keep us loyalists but also appeal to the party ship type. If you go way back in my posts, you will see that I said the same thing years ago! I hope they don't mess with my Princess.

 

I have said the same thing for years. I don't even think if you ask Princess Corporate who their target market is, that they could answer. Unless now their new target market is "new cruisers".

 

I think Princess changed direction far before Carnival bought them out. It started with the SUN PRINCESS, largest cruise ship in the world at the time of her launch, then continued with GRAND PRINCESS, again the largest at the time of her launch. These ships were designed and built pre-Carnival. Clearly by going in the direction of such large high density ships, Princess was already leaving behind its roots as a truly premium line and entering the mass-market arena to complete with the likes of NCL, Carnival, and Royal Caribbean. Back in the 80's, Princess was competed with and was priced alongside such lines as Royal Viking and Sitmar. When Crystal was formed they even copied the ROYAL PRINCESS (1984) design and Princess then competed with Crystal. With the Sun and Grand Class, all that changed and it was a new direction for Princess.

 

I feel Princess had chartered its course and has known its niche for a long time now. They are clearly a middle of the road product offering consistency that appeals to the slightly higher end of the mass-market.

 

Ernie

 

It is difficult for me to tell as my first (Princess) cruise was on the Sun Class ships when they came out. So I don't know what Princess was like before that. My mom had been on the original Sun Princess and I think that was her favorite ship and cruise. I would still take a (current) Sun Class ship to the Crown Princess any day. These ships still had great space ratio and were classy. They had harps and classical piano players in the atrium, etc.. My last cruise on Sapphire was so loud. Loud sounds in the atrium that people couldn't carry on conversations in Alfredos or Vines. I guess it is a new generation that they are trying to appeal to. I liked the classy environment Princess used to provide. The quality of the food and service. Now the food tastes average and I feel so sorry for the servers (if it be waitstaff or room stewards) as they are stretched so thin, they can barely keep up. This is not their fault, but managements increased demands on them.

Edited November 7, 2013 by Coral

[Ethel5]

.......................SNIP...................................

 

It is difficult for me to tell as my first (Princess) cruise was on the Sun Class ships when they came out. So I don't know what Princess was like before that. My mom had been on the original Sun Princess and I think that was her favorite ship and cruise. I would still take a (current) Sun Class ship to the Crown Princess any day. These ships still had great space ratio and were classy. They had harps and classical piano players in the atrium, etc.. My last cruise on Sapphire was so loud. Loud sounds in the atrium that people couldn't carry on conversations in Alfredos or Vines. I guess it is a new generation that they are trying to appeal to. I liked the classy environment Princess used to provide. The quality of the food and service. Now the food tastes average and I feel so sorry for the servers (if it be waitstaff or room stewards) as they are stretched so thin, they can barely keep up. This is not their fault, but managements increased demands on them.

 

This could have been written by me!

 

Princess is still trying to be all things to all people IE: (Please don't start an argument-it is an example) look at the dress suggestions, code, recommendations etc. They don't enforce them so as to not offend anyone. The loyalists want the formality while the young 'uns (meaning new cruisers) want the casual. Princess is a schizophrenic parent stuck between a rock and a hard place. They need to decide what they want to be and then stick with it.

[eroller]

 

Princess is still trying to be all things to all people IE: (Please don't start an argument-it is an example) look at the dress suggestions, code, recommendations etc. They don't enforce them so as to not offend anyone.

 

 

 

I sail on pretty much all the cruise lines. The same story can be said about almost every one of them. In this very tough and competitive environment, no company wants to leave out any potential customer. The family market is the big money maker these days, so you see lines that never marketed to families doing just that. Crystal is a good example. Something else that Princess hasn't adopted yet, but many lines have is the "ship within a ship" concept. Basically the mass-market lines want to attract the premium/luxury customer so they create a special and secluded enclave within the ship just for them. Just another example of cruise lines that want to be all things to all people. The so-called premium lines are facing the biggest challenge, as they are having difficulty maintaining pricing integrity. People are just not willing to pay more for something that is not really tangible, and to make matter worse most of the mass-market lines have enhanced their products to offer just as many if not more of the so-called "premium" amenities.

 

The cruise industry is a tough sell. Where else can you pay less for a weeks vacation than you did 20 years ago? Unfortunately they only have themselves to blame by flooding the market with excess capacity. Simple supply and demand.

 

Ernie

Edited November 7, 2013 by eroller

[bdjam]

hal seems lost to me, stuck between trying to appease their very senior core clientele and trying to appeal to a younger crowd. This is something they have struggled with for years, ever since they had the olsen twins christen one of their ships (boy was that a pathetic attempt).

 

har!!!

Edited November 7, 2013 by bdjam