harz99 Posted February 16, 2014 #76 Share Posted February 16, 2014 There are huge cultural and legal differences between the US/North America and the UK/Europe and this issue highlights many of them........... ...............When our TP was cancelled last year, there were many Americans who were adversely affected despite the cruise being more than 12 months aways. They had planned complex B2B2B elements including land tours and/or river cruises in Asia. Using Asian tour companies, they were required to meet local T&Cs which may have included non-refundable deposits and/or full payments. Thus, in certain circumstances, some North Americans may feel more agrieved than others from the same country. So, the cancellation of a cruise has a different impact to people who live in different parts of the world or who have different circumstances. Because it would not affect you very much, does not mean it is of no consequence to someone else. Cruising happens in all parts of the world and those taking cruises reside [and book] is all parts of the world. At present, laws and practices are not the same throughout the world and, judging by the issues it causes in the EU, probably never will be. Thank you Sue, very eloquently put. This is exactly why Johhnnyt's earlier post 63 provoked me to post my response. Doug (another Brit who had the Millie Transpacific pulled for this year and who at least got $300 OBC unlike the OPs measly $200). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caro24 Posted February 16, 2014 Author #77 Share Posted February 16, 2014 Thank you everyone who replied to my original post. We have now re-booked on a cruise departing 1 Feb. Regrettably 2 of our party can no longer make these dates, which is sad. Also the cabin choices were not as good so we have now upgraded at an additional cost of £400 (about $600) per couple. We did think X might give a reduction on upgrade costs, but that not was not to be. It has been a learning experience, especially with some of the great posts on this thread. We still intend to fully enjoy our cruise and the planning that goes with it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redtravel Posted February 16, 2014 #78 Share Posted February 16, 2014 Be happy that you have been notified so far in advance. I have had trips canceled without much notice. We were once booked on a trip to Mexico that was canceled 4 days before we were scheduled to leave. Got our money back. We were already packed. We had already requested vacation time from work which we could not change. We were ready to go. It was before the internet. We made many phone calls and booked a trip to Bermuda. We went to the airport and bought tickets. We got a hotel reservation at Holiday Inn. At that time, Bermuda did not accept credit cards. WE went to a local Holiday Inn and paid for the hotel room in cash. Got a reciept. 4 days later we flew to Bermuda. We got to the hotel. Our names were not on their reserved list. The hotel was puzzled. We had the paid receipt which the hotel honored. We stayed and had a great time. When we arrived home, the reservation letter from Holiday Inn was in our mail. The dates were wrong. Fortunately, we had already been on the vacation. Without knowing we went to Bermuda without a hotel reservation. We loved Bermuda so much that we have been back many times. Unfortunately the Holiday Inn closed in Bermuda . OBC is a nice offer. If you had already purchased plane tickets, the cruiseline should pay for any change fees. Perhaps, you will find a different cruise or trip. Relax. Things happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jagoffee Posted February 16, 2014 #79 Share Posted February 16, 2014 There are huge cultural and legal differences between the US/North America and the UK/Europe and this issue highlights many of them. In the UK, if we make a deposit on a cruise, we forefit it if we cancel. We can, as a concession, make one change [not cancellation] without additonal cost if we are Captain's Club members. In view of this, we do not book a cruise "just in case" we may want to take it. We also have the concept of "unfair contract". These have to be tested in the courts on a case by case basis but, if the less powerful party in a contract has no control over the terms of a contract, they can be deemed unfair and, thus, invalid. [However, the costs of testing such contracts in the courts are in most cases much higher than anything that could be recovered.] In the US, deposits are fully refundable for any reason. Hey, you can even take out cancel for any reason trip insurance. [Certainly not available in the UK.] We all know from Cruise Critic, that people make deposits on multiple cruises in the US, and decide later which thy really want to take. In return, the company with whom the contract is taken out, [probably rightly] considers that they are also at liberty to break the contract and, in the US, the law would support them. Celebrity representatives in the UK recognise that the US system is a huge problem for the Company because prized staterooms/suites can be blocked by people who have no intention of using them resulting in them having to be sold, at a loss, after the final payment due date. The practice distorts the market. There are other differences between the two cultures that serve to make the cancellation of a cruise a bigger deal in the UK. The issue which affected us in similar circumstances to the OP's was insurance. In the UK, we tend to take out insurance earlier. We are, after all committing at least the deposit at that stage. Insurance premiums are much higher in the UK. In the UK, the main element covered is medical insurance [a multi-million sum and thus high premiums]. In the US, the main element covered is cancellation [the cost of the cruise and associated items such as flights - a much lower sum with lower premiums]. When our TP was cancelled last year, there were many Americans who were adversely affected despite the cruise being more than 12 months aways. They had planned complex B2B2B elements including land tours and/or river cruises in Asia. Using Asian tour companies, they were required to meet local T&Cs which may have included non-refundable deposits and/or full payments. Thus, in certain circumstances, some North Americans may feel more agrieved than others from the same country. So, the cancellation of a cruise has a different impact to people who live in different parts of the world or who have different circumstances. Because it would not affect you very much, does not mean it is of no consequence to someone else. Cruising happens in all parts of the world and those taking cruises reside [and book] is all parts of the world. At present, laws and practices are not the same throughout the world and, judging by the issues it causes in the EU, probably never will be. Great explanation. Thank you. You obviously have a lot of knowledge in this area. I have some questions. 1. Does the TA get any of the deposit when you cancel or does all of it go to UK Celebrity? 2. I continue to be surprised that the US cruise refund policies are so liberal as you mention. As you know it does not work the same way for airlines, but it is the full fare and not just a deposit. I am really not convinced that this is "culture" related. Do you really believe that someone from the UK is more likely to book cruises "just in case"? This comment surprises me. 3. In the UK can you make a car reservation without a deposit? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cle-guy Posted February 16, 2014 #80 Share Posted February 16, 2014 I wonder if the difference between US refundable deposits and UK non refundable may have something to do with population numbers. Perhaps in the US markets, they are OK with late cancellations and refunds because they know we have over 300,000,000 people living here to try to get to fill the open spots versus only 65 million in the UK to pull from. Maybe cultural custom comes into play as well? in the US maybe they found we would't adapt to non refundable deposits, where in the UK and Europe customarily they may be used to such policies as part of the culture and tradition and therefore business continue with the policies simply because they market hasn't pushed back by not booking cruises until such time as the line stops with the non-refundable deposit. Curious, what is the policy of UK based lines as to refunding of deposits? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cle-guy Posted February 16, 2014 #81 Share Posted February 16, 2014 who at least got $300 OBC unlike the OPs measly $200). $200 is 'Measly' BUT 30% at $300 more makes it not measly? I'd consider $50 measly. In either case, I'd happily accept the free money and move forward, knowing there is nothing I can do about the charter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iancal Posted February 16, 2014 #82 Share Posted February 16, 2014 It happens. Get over it. Move forward. Better to spend your time and energy productively selecting a replacement cruise or an alternate vacation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iancal Posted February 16, 2014 #83 Share Posted February 16, 2014 It happens. Get over it. Move forward. Whining about it will not solve your issue. Better to spend your time and energy productively selecting a replacement cruise or an alternate vacation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tgmtgm Posted February 16, 2014 #84 Share Posted February 16, 2014 Thank you everyone who replied to my original post. We have now re-booked on a cruise departing 1 Feb. Regrettably 2 of our party can no longer make these dates, which is sad. Also the cabin choices were not as good so we have now upgraded at an additional cost of £400 (about $600) per couple. We did think X might give a reduction on upgrade costs, but that not was not to be. It has been a learning experience, especially with some of the great posts on this thread. We still intend to fully enjoy our cruise and the planning that goes with it! I'm glad you finally managed to rearrange your holiday plans and have a replacement cruise to look forward to and enjoy. I find it unsettling that Celebrity only offered you two weeks to decide on a viable cruise to book in order to use the $200obc. The reasonable thing to do would be to tie the $200 to your Captains Circle number, and have it be useable on any Celebrity cruise you choose to rebook within one years time. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Project_gal Posted February 17, 2014 #85 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Great explanation. Thank you. You obviously have a lot of knowledge in this area. I have some questions. 1. Does the TA get any of the deposit when you cancel or does all of it go to UK Celebrity? 2. I continue to be surprised that the US cruise refund policies are so liberal as you mention. As you know it does not work the same way for airlines, but it is the full fare and not just a deposit. I am really not convinced that this is "culture" related. Do you really believe that someone from the UK is more likely to book cruises "just in case"? This comment surprises me. 3. In the UK can you make a car reservation without a deposit? Thanks I have no specialist knowledge but, if I do keep my eyes open, read Cruise Critic and speak to fellow cruisers on board. 1. The £300 deposit per cruise is the same if you book through a TA or direct. I have no knowledge of how Celebrity rewards TAs. 2. I believe that I said in the UK people do NOT book a cruise "just in case". I have certainly seen people from the US post on Cruise Critic that they have booked a cruise but have not made up their mind whether to go on it or not. Speaking to Celebrity representatives in the UK, it is seen as a problem that does happen in the US. 3. Have never hired a car in the UK. I wonder if the difference between US refundable deposits and UK non refundable may have something to do with population numbers. Perhaps in the US markets, they are OK with late cancellations and refunds because they know we have over 300,000,000 people living here to try to get to fill the open spots versus only 65 million in the UK to pull from. We may have a smaller populations but we are the second largest cruising nation and tend to have more vacation time than the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cle-guy Posted February 17, 2014 #86 Share Posted February 17, 2014 So why does the UK make deposits non-refundable if even X UK say's it is a problem for them? Leads me to believe there must be some sort of law or regulation in effect that requires it or it's just long-standing tradition there that holds on. If X notes it's a problem and the rest of their company allows CXL and refund, why wouldn't they just do away with the problem and make all reservations cancelable and do away with this particular level of frustration for some. Does anyone know if the UK based lines have the same policy of non-refundable deposits? If so, it lends more support that its custom or regulation at play, and not simply blind Corporate Policy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CABINET Posted February 17, 2014 #87 Share Posted February 17, 2014 (edited) So why does the UK make deposits non-refundable if even X UK say's it is a problem for them?Leads me to believe there must be some sort of law or regulation in effect that requires it or it's just long-standing tradition there that holds on. If X notes it's a problem and the rest of their company allows CXL and refund, why wouldn't they just do away with the problem and make all reservations cancelable and do away with this particular level of frustration for some. Does anyone know if the UK based lines have the same policy of non-refundable deposits? If so, it lends more support that its custom or regulation at play, and not simply blind Corporate Policy. Because they can I imagine. This is the norm in the UK and presumably stops many spurious bookings made on a whim by people who will have no consequences to face if they decide to cancel. I guess if it is the norm in the USA then Celebrity has no choice but to allow people to book and then cancel at no charge/inconvenience to themselves. As I asked earlier in the thread - I wonder why they even bother to take a deposit from US customers? Seems rather pointless! Edited February 17, 2014 by CABINET Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Project_gal Posted February 17, 2014 #88 Share Posted February 17, 2014 So why does the UK make deposits non-refundable if even X UK say's it is a problem for them? No, it is the refundable deposits in the US that Celebrity see as a problem [as described by Celebrity staff in the UK] - not the other way round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cle-guy Posted February 17, 2014 #89 Share Posted February 17, 2014 No, it is the refundable deposits in the US that Celebrity see as a problem [as described by Celebrity staff in the UK] - not the other way round. Of course the UK folks see it as a problem - it's causing THEM the grief! The US folks must see it as the better way to allow cancellations, otherwise they'd roll out the non-refundable terms across the company. Seems the majority of bookings on X would be US-based and therefore the majority of bookings are refundable/changeable. It just has to do with some sort of UK regulation, otherwise if X UK sees it as such a problem, why not just open up all their UK bookings to changes and refunds too. I'm an operations guy, and when I look at streamlining things, just hate when there are different sets of rules for what seems to be the same groups of people. Cruise ship rules and customs are just full of inexplicable guidelines and rules. End of the day, there should be no doubt Celebrity would alter the UK polices if it could or if it felt it would drive profits to the bottom line. In that they don't change it means they have determined it would cause issues to profitability, or they are simply following local regulations. In that they have not instituted a non refundable deposit policy in the US, also says they have determined it would be detrimental to profitability of they did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Big_M Posted February 18, 2014 #90 Share Posted February 18, 2014 End of the day, there should be no doubt Celebrity would alter the UK polices if it could or if it felt it would drive profits to the bottom line. In that they don't change it means they have determined it would cause issues to profitability, or they are simply following local regulations. In that they have not instituted a non refundable deposit policy in the US, also says they have determined it would be detrimental to profitability of they did. Yes and no. There’s a balance that needs to be met – they can’t just go for everything that would be most profitable at once as it takes time, in a number of ways. Restrictions have become tighter over time, and I wouldn’t be surprised if this is changed in the US at well at some time, as having them refundable does complicate things for the cruise line in terms of cancelling, and changing it would improve cash flow. But it’s a competitive market and changing would tick a lot of people off, so I’d say they haven’t felt it’s worth the grief yet. But that doesn’t mean that can’t change…. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Coastal Posted February 18, 2014 #91 Share Posted February 18, 2014 My DH and I are actually on this sailing, live in the US, and have appreciated that the charter was booked before air was booked. We have had to rearrange our precruise river trip to match up to this change, but this is the first time we have had to deal with a change and know it is always possible. On the other hand, we have only cancelled one of our cruises and were grateful to get our deposit back. To those of you in the UK, is Celebrity transferring your deposit as well as offering obc? I had understood they were also offering certain itineraries at the same price point for like cabins. Hope to meet up with some of you along the way. Sent from my iPhone using Forums mobile app Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare MarkusToe Posted February 18, 2014 #92 Share Posted February 18, 2014 (edited) it's the same within germany - deposit is non refundable as well - but the german contract is binding within 2 ways - if the cruiseline cancel the cruise or move departure port or date - they have to cover all the cost.... Edited February 18, 2014 by MarkusToe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upwarduk Posted February 18, 2014 #93 Share Posted February 18, 2014 it's the same within germany - deposit is non refundable as well - but the german contract is binding within 2 ways - if the cruiseline cancel the cruise or move departure port or date - they have to cover all the cost.... I thought it was law in UK, that you understood when you entered into a contract ( ie booking a cruise) that you lost your deposit if cancelled. But maybe it's a EU condition as well! Certainly, if you are given a flier for future cruises on board, the small print always states 'US & Canada only' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jagoffee Posted February 18, 2014 #94 Share Posted February 18, 2014 (edited) I have no specialist knowledge but, if I do keep my eyes open, read Cruise Critic and speak to fellow cruisers on board. 1. The £300 deposit per cruise is the same if you book through a TA or direct. I have no knowledge of how Celebrity rewards TAs. 2. I believe that I said in the UK people do NOT book a cruise "just in case". I have certainly seen people from the US post on Cruise Critic that they have booked a cruise but have not made up their mind whether to go on it or not. Speaking to Celebrity representatives in the UK, it is seen as a problem that does happen in the US. 3. Have never hired a car in the UK. We may have a smaller populations but we are the second largest cruising nation and tend to have more vacation time than the US. Thank you for your response. 2. I would concur that I can see no reason that people for the UK would more likely book a cruise "just in case". So why are the deposits then not refundable? Isn't there a separate legal entity in the UK called UK Celebrity? Isn't that the company making the decision related to deposits and many other items? Or some other unique local requirement? The bottom Lin is I am not so sure that it is the "Celebrity" company that is deciding they the deposits will be refundable in the US and not in the UK. Are you? Edited February 18, 2014 by jagoffee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southjudd Posted February 25, 2014 #95 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Celebrity is selling Century in April 2015... http://www.cruisecritic.com/news/news.cfm?ID=5735 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbsb3233 Posted February 25, 2014 #96 Share Posted February 25, 2014 (edited) Agreed - OP is inconvenienced but this is plenty of time to reorganize PLUS have the benefit of the $200. No fincial impact I can think of other than the POSITIVE one of $200. Less than 2 weeks is hardly plenty of time. Cruises aren't usually something you research and just throw together in 2 weeks, especially if coordinating with multiple couples. While I agree that Celebrity gave them plenty of notice on the cancelation itself, the offer of $200 credit toward a different cruise should have more like a 6 month fuse on it. 2 weeks to start all over is pretty crappy. I would probably call and ask for more time to decide. They might extend the "make up" offer some. Edited February 25, 2014 by dbsb3233 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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