Cruise Passenger Assaulted on Holland America Cruise Ship

[JDinWA]

Bruce Muzz (a senior cruise Officer) kind of answered this question on the other thread..

 

Apparently the deadbolt could stop the use of the Master Key, but the deadbolt could be opened in case of emergency only by Senior Officers..

 

See his post no 89 in this thread:

 

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1992729&page=5

 

[...]

 

Betty

 

Is there a similar lock on balcony doors that prevents any but senior officers from entering?

[sjn911]

I think the nuances and angles mentioned are given and can be taken more in terms of attempting understanding and learning with this issue; and possible future prevention; than anything being wrong with Hal, the victim or Bare Necessities, nudist enthusiasts or any true culpability other than the perpetrator here. It is simply trying to get more understanding for every angle that could prevent this growing problem in the future and then decide what is valid or workable whether any morsel of thought is part of this scenario or not.

 

This victim has nothing to be ashamed of..did nothing wrong and had a lot of strength....God bless her.

Edited February 20, 2014 by sjn911

[LoveyHowell]

By definition "charter" means the full ship.

 

From Oxford dictionaries:

the reservation of an aircraft, boat, or bus for private use.

"a plane on charter to a multinational company"

 

I don't see that the victim was part of this specific charter makes a whit of difference. Implying that it does also implies that she is to blame - at least in part. I've seen nothing reported that the (former) crew member indicated that the ship's passengers were part of the Bare Necessities charter made any difference.

 

First of all, I want to be 100% clear, I place no blame on the victim whatsoever. She is, in totality, a victim here and I echo the sentiments of others in wishing her a full and speedy recovery. I in no way meant to imply otherwise. I was actually replying to people saying HAL had no business doing this sort of cruise, themselves implying the victim asked for it, or at least created an environment for bad things to happen.

 

That out of the way, I do also understand a charter means a whole ship takeover, but also have seen postings in here from people who were surprised by this cruise, as if they were booked and not told anything; maybe I misread them.

 

I'm not here to argue with anyone. This is a real eye opener to me and when I asked a question how we could all be safer onboard in a separate forumit disappeared as well; it is frustrating. Vacations should be relatively care free and relaxing. Unfortunately for this poor woman it was anything but. At least the rest of us have an opportunity to take a moment and practice being aware of our surroundings, exits/escapes, the # to call or button to press for security, etc.

[artist47]

I think the nuances and angles mentioned are given and can be taken more in terms of attempting understanding and learning with this issue; and possible future prevention; than anything being wrong with Hal, the victim or Bare Necessities, nudist enthusiasts or any true culpability other than the perpetrator here. It is simply trying to get more understanding for every angle that could prevent this growing problem in the future and then decide what is valid or workable whether any morsel of thought is part of this scenario or not.

 

This victim has nothing to be ashamed of..did nothing wrong and had a lot of strength....God bless her.

 

 

I agree with you. Although I also agreed with the other poster who said "it doesn't matter"...the reason it "doesn't matter" is because at this point, our concern should be for the victim, and for justice.

 

However, I agree with you in what you say above, in terms of learning as much as we can so this can possibly be averted. Nothing is going to stop a rapist if he is determined. But understanding the mindset of the rapist, and in this case, a culturally disposed rapist, can help women to be better prepared to take care of themselves.

 

I really do appreciate the opportunities this discussion has given us: to learn and to grow as human beings.

[artist47]

Is there a similar lock on balcony doors that prevents any but senior officers from entering?

 

I used to be a property manager...I realize that is not the same thing here, but my educated guess:

 

If the door is a "slider" probably not. If it is a door hung from the side frame, and opens inward/outward, possibly. The reason for this distinction is simple: a slider has an internal lock mechanism that is attached to the straight bar that goes into the other end of the frame when the door is slid shut. Such a lock would be standard, and would be hard to manufacture with different combo tumblers.

 

If it is a "regular" door in the sense that it opens inward toward the room (or outward toward the balcony) this is very possible. In this case, there is no straight bar --- just a regular shaft from the door knob, to the jamb and this could allow for all types of locks to be placed, exchanged, swapped out, etc.

 

I may not be explaining it well, but that is my take on it and would be happy to try and clarify. Hopefully, there's a locksmith passenger on these boards that could help with this question and/or correct me if I am wrong.

 

I have not cruised in a balcony cabin on HAL so I am unfamiliar with how their doors are made/hung.

[kjw869]

That out of the way, I do also understand a charter means a whole ship takeover, but also have seen postings in here from people who were surprised by this cruise, as if they were booked and not told anything; maybe I misread them.

 

This cruise was a full charter by Bare Necessities Tour and Travel. If someone booked that cruise, it had to be through that agency. This agency has chartered the Celebrity Constellation for the same type cruise in 2015.

[sjn911]

I agree with you. Although I also agreed with the other poster who said "it doesn't matter"...the reason it "doesn't matter" is because at this point, our concern should be for the victim, and for justice.

 

However, I agree with you in what you say above, in terms of learning as much as we can so this can possibly be averted. Nothing is going to stop a rapist if he is determined. But understanding the mindset of the rapist, and in this case, a culturally disposed rapist, can help women to be better prepared to take care of themselves.

 

I really do appreciate the opportunities this discussion has given us: to learn and to grow as human beings.

 

 

I agree with you too...usually I would just not be in the big picture at all on a deal like this..especially at this point...

 

The cultural issues scream out as a possible part of the issue... on this specific case who knows how much. Unfortunately..no matter what rights Bare Necessities have and confusion over where most nudists come from..ie not playing sex or power games...they may do well to think about where they want to be when served by a group that may not cope well even if legally and financially they have to take or want to take the business..I almost think nudists should be served by nudists..but that is taking it too far for the specific agony present now...and yet we want to do anything within reason not to push a big population not too respectful of the female solo traveller..or sometimes male...in clothes or not.

 

This is all seperate from the classic rapist's power and control and anger issues..but sort of an ugly related cultural cousin unfortunately.

Edited February 20, 2014 by sjn911

[luvbluseas]

This is horrible and scary news! This is what many of us fear could happen to us on a vacation. I will pray for her complete recovery and pray for her family. I will also pray for her complete emotional recovery. I hope that they are able to keep the perpetrator in the US and throw the book at him! After he spends a long, long time in a horrible jail cell I hope he is shipped back to his home permanently!

 

May God bless her and heal her.

[artist47]

This is horrible and scary news! This is what many of us fear could happen to us on a vacation. I will pray for her complete recovery and pray for her family. I will also pray for her complete emotional recovery. I hope that they are able to keep the perpetrator in the US and throw the book at him! After he spends a long, long time in a horrible jail cell I hope he is shipped back to his home permanently!

 

May God bless her and heal her.

 

It may sound strange, but in this case, I hope he is NOT deported. That would be disastrous for the women in Indonesia, his home country. In this case, I hope he spends the rest of his natural life (whatever might be left of it) in a US prison. That way, he will never be able to harm another woman. If he is deported home, he will have carte blanche to do whatever he wants to any woman he wants, when he gets there.

[MizDaisy]

Not that it's going to change anything, but I was talking to my husband about this, and I wonder....when the perpetrator (regardless of his position onboard) knocked on the door and got no answer, then knocked again....and he claims the woman said "I'm coming....SOB...." and therefore, to his screwed up reasoning, she insulted him and his family.....

WHAT IF.....she said "I'm coming!".....and then stubbed her toe and exclaimed at the pain???

 

Doesn't make any difference at all.....but how many of us seasoned cruisers would even think of responding in a derogatory way, when we knew we were having breakfast delivered?

 

In other words, unless she verifies that she did indeed call him a name, I'm not buying his sorry excuse.

Edited February 20, 2014 by MizDaisy

[jimdalva]

We wish the woman a speedy recovery of Body, Mind and Soul.

 

Now a little about us nudists

WOW what to say first.

We were on that cruise, yes we are nudist.

 

No the crew was not nude, couldn't be if they wanted.

 

Nudist have had their own cruises for over 25 years with this one company, and now they have competition from other charter company's.

 

Almost EVERY major line has hosted a nude cruise. And NO you cant book one by accident and be surprised. We take the entire ship. We have 2-4 cruises per year to chose from.

 

NO it is not a sex fest, we are beautiful on the inside not always on the outside. Its not a sexy environment at all.

 

No we don't contaminate your ship, being nude makes you very aware of hygiene and we are a very clean group who always sit on towels. By the way aren't all you guys naked inside your staterooms, do you sit on towels?

 

We nudist are all shapes and sizes and all ages, religions, colors from all walks of life, rich, poor any every thing in between. We are all around you, you just don't know it.

 

Its a fast growing part of vacation travel. Big modern nude resorts have sprung up across the country and the world. We have many nude beaches some official others "tolerated'

 

Before this cruise, nudist sold out a Miami hotel and it went nude for the weekend.

 

We spend money and cause no trouble, we are good business.

 

We are not 'Yucky' people, but if you 'don't get it', I guess I cant explain it.

Any question, just ask, I'm happy to help.;)

[swedish weave]

I do not accept the cultural connection that has been made by some who posted here.

 

The name Ketut is more indicative of a family from Bali which is part of Indonesia, but that does not mean the entire country should be disparaged because one of the residents committed this crime.

 

Rapes occur all over the world and are not the result of cultural backgrounds.

 

I know many very nice and gentle people from Bali/Indonesia, and connecting them to this crime is totally unwarranted.

[iancal]

Why on earth would HAL or any other cruise line refuse to charter their ship to a group of nudists...or any other group for that matter???

 

And what business is it of ours who charters the ship?

[Host Walt]

Please, everyone. FACTS, not speculation.

Thanks.

[sjn911]

Please, everyone. FACTS, not speculation.

Thanks.

 

 

Good point..thank you:).

 

All the issues can never be covered or help here... beyond this point now.

Edited February 20, 2014 by sjn911

[edmusic]

Please, everyone. FACTS, not speculation.

Thanks.

Agreed. But do we have a reliable source for just the facts as they occurred?

[Tampa Girl]

Agreed. But do we have a reliable source for just the facts as they occurred?

 

 

Of course not. Absent a court hearing or stipulation, we won't know the facts. All we hear is what the press reports, and we all know the fallacies of that source. This thread has been rife with speculation. Interesting though it might be, speculation has a way of turning into "fact" or rumors, and that helps no one.

[Oceanwench]

Please, everyone. FACTS, not speculation.

Thanks.

 

Amen.

 

Reading through this thread, I am amazed at the assumptions people are making.

HAL made a statement, and that's pretty much all anyone has to go on. HAL referred to the man as a "crew member," not defining his actual job.

 

I would say the stories in the media are written, for the most part, by people who don't spend hours on cruise forums. To them, "room service worker" is general enough to cover the man's position. They don't necessarily understand the idea of room service vs. cabin steward as someone here would.

 

I recall several months ago a long and lively thread here about this cruise on the "Nude Amsterdam," as the charter group was calling it. It seemed a lot of people were interested in hearing about it, joking about it ... But not complaining about it being a bad thing for HAL.

[sjn911]

Glad to know more how it goes at suite level and room service level,,something to know and think about for each ship now,,thinking forward.

 

From Northshore:

 

I hope this woman recovers from her physical and emotional injuries, and in time can move past this. Although it will always haunt her, I pray that she will get the help she needs to try to return to something of a normal life.

 

Thanks for that well put statement...

My prayers and thoughts just consciuously focused here now too...just a terrible occurance on such a careful Premium line many of us aspire to..Sarah

Edited February 20, 2014 by sjn911

[AZNative2000]

Please, everyone. FACTS, not speculation.

Thanks.

 

I agree Walt. And the only facts I've seen are those of a HAL crew member sneaking into a woman's cabin and raping and trying to kill her. (He confessed.) Any truth to the idea that she may have said something to upset him is pure speculation. And what, exactly, his job title was is irrelevant.

 

I am still horrified to think that, just maybe, some of the mysterious "suicides" on other ships that were adamantly refuted by the relatives of those missing persons might actually have been another example of a criminal covering his/her tracks by tossing someone overboard. :eek::eek:

 

Prayers to this victim and her family.

[sammiedawg]

I am trying to catch up on this story. I am sickened by the situation and at a loss for words.

[Host Walt]

Once again, FACTS only. PLEASE, no speculation.

Thanks.

[gcvt]

I am trying to catch up on this story. I am sickened by the situation and at a loss for words.

 

That pretty much sums it up :(

 

edit: :mad:

Edited February 21, 2014 by gcvt

[RJ2002]

Once again, FACTS only. PLEASE, no speculation.

Thanks.

 

Thanks Walt. Your sound reasoning would have been welcome over on the NCL board during the recent drowning tragedy.

[Bruin Steve]

My two cents:

 

1) It has absolutely nothing to do with what sort of cruise it was or with who chartered the cruise. The facts don't even indicate that this was an issue in this attack. Truth be told, ALL cruise passengers deserve to be safe and to feel safe from criminal attack. Period.

 

2) It is not a "cultural thing". The notion that her saying "Son of a B---" is a "slight to one's parents" worthy of being raped and becoming the victim of attempted murder...in ANY culture... is ludicrous. If someone was raped and/or murdered every time they uttered something of this sort, the crime statistics would be incredible.

 

3) How the perpetrator got into the room is fairly clear. It is right in the confession. It doesn't matter what his position on the ship was. He clearly had a key allowing him access to staterooms. Unfortunately, to provide the service we are all accustommed to onboard, many crew members have access. They come into our cabin to clean up, to deliver notices and fruit baskets and champagne bottles and gifts...even when we are out and about. Back on land, your hotel maids and custodians also have access. So does the janitor at your office. Any place you have people delivering this sort of service, they have and need access. 99.99% of the time, the system works just fine. This is an extreme case.

 

4) It's now up to the criminal justice system. I hope and assume he will be diligently prosecuted. Charges should include burglary (believe it or not, the entrance into the cabin could be within the definition), assault, battery, rape and attempted murder. If the prosecution can get a guilty verdict on all of those charges, they may be able to put him away for a long, long time. Hopefully the system works here. Regrettably, it doesn't always...

 

5) I think Holland America acted entirely properly in this case. They apprehended the culprit. They didn't try to protect him or make excuses. They turned him over to the authorities. Did they act in anyway improperly hiring this guy? Probably not. Probably hard to predict this sort of outcome unless he had a prior history which they failed to uncover or diligently investigate. Will be interesting if any story of any prior incidents arises. The real problem is that these sort of things DO happen...on HAL AND on other cruise lines...and also in situations other than cruises. It happens in hotels and resorts on land. It happens in everyday life. But, just like Norovirus epidemics, it seems to raise more headlines when it happens on a cruise ship. The entire cruise industry has a public relations problem to deal with. And it looks like they are learning. You don't try to hide it or to cover it up or to make excuses. You cooperate with the authorities in every way possible. Seems to be what HAL did here and I applaud them for that.

 

6) Next step: The cruise lines probably all need to be more proactive. We know they train and instruct crew on various rules regarding behavior towards and contact with passengers. They likely need to step this up. Perhaps they will start a system where crew needs to check their master keys in and out with a specific security employee on a regular basis when they start or end shifts. Maybe a zero tolerance policy for any inappropriate contact with a passenger. Still going to be difficult to completely get rid of isolated incidents. Whenever I've cruised with my daughters (and now that they are grown and sometimes cruise without us), I always give them that lecture about personal safety and responsibility. I think it's now ingrained into them. I guess I'd also advise them against cruising solo. Find a friend. It's more fun that way anyway. Now I guess there's an added personal safety benefit.

 

Add one note: Again, I don't think HAL was necessarily negligent here. One would need a basis for a law suit against the cruise line. Hence, the interest if any reports surface of prior conduct by this crew member that would support the notion they were in any way negligent. Nonetheless, I'm fairly sure that HAL, as a public relations issue, will reward the victim in some way--like future free cruises, for example.

Edited February 21, 2014 by Bruin Steve