Just an Idea -Older Ships; Shorter Cruises

[sail7seas]

Have been reading this forum for years. Enjoy HAL very much.

 

Question? Does anyone else feel that HAL might be wise to have the older ships do shorter cruises -more 7 day and perhaps some 5 day? (And not the 10 and 14 day etc.)

 

We personally would enjoy 5 day cruises on HAL- because of the work schedules of family members. Also, would prefer going on longer cruises on ships like the Noordam (which we have) rather than on the older ships.

 

Please understand- we like the older ships and the smaller ships, but note so many problems with them these days. (A friend and her husband went on the Statendam and had problems.)

 

I know everyone will be kind and gentle with their responses. Thanks.

 

 

 

HAL and all cruise lines design everything having to do with the ships according to $$. IF they thought they could make more money doing your suggested five day cruises, they would be doing them. Every decision every cruise line is first made for safety and next by the accountants. If the bean counters say the numbers show one thing or another, that is what they do.

 

I would not fly anywhere for a five day cruise. If I could board at our home port (Boston), we MIGHT take a five day cruise but likely not. Five days simply is not worth the trouble of packing and planning IMO.

 

 

 

The problem with HAL right now as I see it is an aging fleet. Does not matter what size the ship their all getting old. The older the ship the more the need for maintenance. The more the maintenance (dry dock) needed the more customer complaints HAL is going to receive. I think about it as I love my Toyota 2008 Camry. It has 125,000 miles and my warranty is expired. It has served me well. Sure I can get another 75,000 miles out of her but I am going to need another set of tires, new brake job maybe a new battery. Things are going to start to break down and I expect that. HAL is starting to sell off the smaller ships ie. Statendam and they are starting to build again with one in the pipeline. Personally I wish they were building more with a quicker turn around time but in time HAL will have too if they want to stay competitive. We the HAL consumer may have to pay higher fares and I expect that too. HAL may have to do things to attract the younger passengers/families and I am OK with that. I think they have a good product but they (HAL) are in need of a complete upgrade of the fleet dry docks are just not cutting it. IMHO I can always look for another cruise line if I am not happy. That is my choice.

 

bob

 

IF HAL has a problem, I see it they can't decide who their market is to be. They are trying hard to be all things to all people and there are too many places that is not working. IMO

 

Since the days we first started sailing HAL, over 20 years ago, we have seen a gradual blurring of their target market. I'm not sure they have a specific group they are trying to please. No one will ever please all of the people all of the time.

 

[kangforpres]

This is a really good thread let's keep it going, here are my thoughts:

 

Ships like cars and airplanes can be serviceable for a very long time if they are maintained. However the cost of Maintenance always increases over time. HAL has been trying to sell all of the S classes for sometime now but cannot move a small ship in this market which is now predicated on massive ships that produce a higher pax revenue.

 

HAL which competes head to head with Princess, X, Cunard, (Premium) and to a lesser degree NCL, RCI, and even Carnival (Mass Market) Passengers on these lines (Mass Market) have spoken with their wallets and like the newer bigger ships with modern amenities, they also skew a younger and more family demographic that HAL's is trying to attract. The small ships do not appeal to the largest segment of the Cruise Market, you have to remember us CC HAL lovers are not reflective of the entire industry customer base. Oh and The majority of all cruises across the industry is a 7 day cruise.

 

Since HAL is going head long into the completion with bigger ships to try and ween away the competitions customers they will never replace the S and eventually slightly larger R class ships with ships of a similar size, once they are gone they are gone forever. Eventually the Vista class will be the little runts of the fleet. (I mean runts with affection).

 

-Paul

[sail7seas]

If the Luxury lines are still building smaller ships, why not one or two at HAL?

 

Many cannot afford the Luxury prices and can afford the Maasdam and other smaller ship prices. There must be a small- ship niche, in mid-price cruising, which HAL can continue to fill.

 

 

 

<snip>

 

While some HAL cruisers would agree to pay the fare for those Luxury lines and can afford to many cannot really afford the HAL cruises they are taking.

 

IF a cruiser wants to cruise those Luxury Lines and pay those fares, they would be doing so.

 

For the price we pay each time we sail in our "S" and "SA" cabins, we could sail most any ship we wish. We

choose to only sail HAL. :cool: We don't wish to sail a 30,000 ton or smaller ship. We are sailing the cruise

line that suits us. We don't want to sail Seabourn, Crystal, Silversea, Oceania et al (I realize Crystal's ships are larger than 30,000 tons but have NO desire to sail that line.)

 

For our per diems in addition to the extras we pay for that would be included on luxury lines, we would not be spending any more money than we now spend.

 

 

Edited February 15, 2014 by sail7seas

[ICUQT]

HAL and all cruise lines design everything having to do with the ships according to $$. IF they thought they could make more money doing your suggested five day cruises, they would be doing them. Every decision every cruise line is first made for safety and next by the accountants. If the bean counters say the numbers show one thing or another, that is what they do.

 

I would not fly anywhere for a five day cruise. If I could board at our home port (Boston), we MIGHT take a five day cruise but likely not. Five days simply is not worth the trouble of packing and planning IMO.

 

 

 

 

 

IF HAL has a problem, I see it they can't decide who their market is to be. They are trying hard to be all things to all people and there are too many places that is not working. IMO

 

Since the days we first started sailing HAL, over 20 years ago, we have seen a gradual blurring of their target market. I'm not sure they have a specific group they are trying to please. No one will ever please all of the people all of the time.

 

 

OK Sail I am going to agree with you on this. We have been discussing the issue for months on various named threads. Just who is HAL marketing to? Is it the young? The middle aged? Those of us (including me) who are in the prime of their lives? But let me ask you this. In your opinion what segment of the population is "buttering their bread" so to speak? What segment is bringing in the almighty $$$$. I think they might want to focus more on their repeat customer base BUT think of more marketing ideas to attract different segments of the cruising population in the future.

 

bob

[kazu]

HAL and all cruise lines design everything having to do with the ships according to $$. IF they thought they could make more money doing your suggested five day cruises, they would be doing them. Every decision every cruise line is first made for safety and next by the accountants. If the bean counters say the numbers show one thing or another, that is what they do.

 

I would not fly anywhere for a five day cruise. If I could board at our home port (Boston), we MIGHT take a five day cruise but likely not. Five days simply is not worth the trouble of packing and planning IMO.

 

 

 

 

 

IF HAL has a problem, I see it they can't decide who their market is to be. They are trying hard to be all things to all people and there are too many places that is not working. IMO

 

Since the days we first started sailing HAL, over 20 years ago, we have seen a gradual blurring of their target market. I'm not sure they have a specific group they are trying to please. No one will ever please all of the people all of the time.

 

 

All very good points Sail. :D

[cruiseapril]

It seems that the smaller HAL ships will be going by the wayside. True?

 

 

So is HAL going to spend $$ to fix up and maintain the smaller ships when they are aiming toward larger ships? That would be prudent to get the best return from the small ship fans.

 

It is not very appealing to spend $1500+ to go on a ship with toilet and AC issues reported by seasoned and dedicated cruisers. (Of course, this is a problem for many cruise lines, not just HAL.)

 

Our concern is that bigger is not better and that letting the small ship market go is not a very good idea.

[LAFFNVEGAS]

Short cruises are typically "fun cruises".

That means significantly different clientele.

The older smaller ships have no merits to be competitive in that segment - not enough "fun" for the appropriate public.

It's possible to fill them using various marketing tools but that will be dramatic deterioration of the product (in the "Resort regions").

Short cruises will be a good fit for a megalopolis like NYC.

These ageing ships will be able to get "their" clientele even for shorter cruises.

I personally would definitely take a 5 day cruise from NYC to Canada on an old HAL ship instead of Carnival.

Just my opinion.

HAL knows better how to run their business. :)

 

Your idea of a 5 day NYC to Canada cruise on an older Hal ship is appealing.

 

We have looked at many 5 day cruises and wondered- why doesn't HAL offer a few of these each year?

 

If Princess does, why not HAL?

 

IMO HAL has better food, service, and atmosphere. Why not run more short cruises with the aging ships- and run the Westerdam or Noordam on some of the Maasdam itineraries and not wear her out too early? JMO

 

I totally agree with BOTH of you but there is one major problem HAL does not understand this concept and they keep doing the same thing and getting the same poor results. HAL would not know how to make a 5 day cruise successful nor do they want to know. They are convinced they can no longer make money on the older S Class ships so they quit spending money on them so basically following their own self fulfilling prophesy of doing the same thing over and over and getting the same results .

Celebrity at one point had two smaller ships the Mercury and Century that they did this with and it was not till they had just the Century that they figured out that they needed to provide more entertainment and things to do to get the passengers out and about spending money. This brought out a Whole new type of passenger that was much younger and wanted to be out and about on the ship enjoying cocktails and socializing. BTW this has always been Norwegian Cruise Lines way of thinking, the passengers cannot spend money on board the ship sitting around in their cabin. :D

I recently was on the Veendam for New Years, now one would think being a Holiday cruise there would be lots of passengers wanting to party every night no matter the age demographics which by the way was quite a bit younger than I expect and many much younger than myself. Everyone paid a huge premium because it was a New Years cruise yet this cruise had maybe 1/4 the entertainment we experienced on our last several HAL cruises that were on Vista Class ships. One can only walk from lounge to lounge so many times to find the only thing happening was Trivia at the Mix at 7:30 :eek: The whole week with the exception of New Years night and the one hour for the VIP Party the Crows Nest was Dark there were times when there was not even a Bartender there in the evening and if one was there there were no servers only one bartender. There for we did exactly what HAL wanted us to do, we went back to our cabin to read and NOT spend any money. This cruise we spent the least amount of money we have ever spent on a ship and had come on board with full expectations of enjoying ourselves and spending money so it was not for lack of trying :o. We had gone on board that week to celebrate Life and a Happy New Year. My opinion is if they cannot get their act together for one week on New Years sailing they could never get their act together to make a 4 and 5 day cruise fun and be able to turn a profit.

While we are hearing lots of opinions from people here are CC poo pooing this idea and that state they would never take a 5 day cruise one must remember that the cruise lines doing this are NOT trying to get your business. There are literally thousands of people that can only take 5 days with travel time for a cruise because of work conflicts. There are also thousands upon thousands of people who have never cruised but are afraid to commit a longer period of time to something they are not sure they will like. There are thousands of up and coming professionals that would not mind spending some money to get away but HAL is making sure that the rumor they are the old seniors cruise lines remains intact. My first cruise was a 5 day cruise that was not stop with things to do while we were not thrilled with that cruise line we did realize we would totally enjoy cruising.

Doing these 4 and 5 day cruises being a bit more upscale would appeal to so many people. Many would love to combine this with a few days in Florida or Boston or New York or even San Diego. But again this will never happen because HAL would never try or put money into trying it :(

Therefore HAL will continue to spend less and less money on their S Class Ship, then continue to scratch their heads wondering why they cannot turn a profit on them. I guess having always worked in Sales I learned that you have to spend money to make money, I think HAL has given up on the concept.

[serendipity1499]

The Prinsendam went into service (as the Royal Viking Sun) in 1988. After 26 years it is still my favorite ship and a number of other folks.

 

ditto:D

 

And also our favorite ship..We sailed on the Prinsendam in Jan for 68 days & loved it.. Yes, we had some AC problems but eventually they were fixed..

 

Sorry OP but don't agree.. We would not bother to pack anything for a 5 day cruise & we live close to both Tampa (1 1/2 hrs) & Ft. Lauderdale (2 1/2 hrs)..

 

The longer the cruise the better for us & we too enjoy the smaller ships..

 

Cheers..Betty

Edited February 15, 2014 by serendipity1499

[nana51]

I own a 1984 Mercedes 300D. It has over 200,000 miles on it and still drives beautifully. Why does a Mercedes last longer than a Honda? It is because it is so well built. Mine is maintained by my live-in mechanic, (my husband owns his own Mercedes repair business). A well maintained smaller ship can still be on the ocean blue for many years. I would love to take some 5 day cruises. It is so hard to get my husband to take a vacation longer than a week. He would be willing to do a couple of these. I think the OP question was a good one. Some of us are not retired, (I am) and can't take these lovely long cruises. I hate the idea of using a carnival "fun cruise" just because they are shorter. Then again HAL bean counters would do it if they could make money I'm sure.

Edited February 15, 2014 by nana51

[casamariposa]

I agree. I don't see how the length of the cruises has any significant influence on the economics of operating the ship. If anything, HAL would have to lower the daily rates to be competitive in the short cruise market, compared to what they can charge for the 20+ day cruises, so the ships would be less profitable.

.

 

The ship still needs a captain and first mate, an engineering and deck crew, a cruise director, librarian, chefs and entertainers...all paid for with less passengers. It's economy of scale. (Some people may not care about ALL of the amenities, but enough people do.) There are fewer passengers able to get the time to do the longer cruises (as well as the higher per diem as explained above.) May the Prinsendam keep sailing for another five years at least! The smaller ships are wonderful for the longer cruises because of the interesting ports they can either dock or tender in. It's an entirely different ambience on the longer cruises. Just my humble opinion.

[cruiseapril]

Some have expressed interest in 5 day cruises. The best idea I have read so far- regarding this- is to have two 5 day Back to Back cruises to appeal to a larger segment of the population.

 

In our case, my daughter (who works in the medical field & can often only do 5 day cruises) could go with us for one portion and we could continue on for the other 5 days. That would create a 10 day cruise for some and a 5 day for others.

 

Many cruise lines use their older ships for short cruises. That does not mean eliminating the longer cruises on the older ships, but rather adding some shorter cruises. If HAL offered ten 5 day cruises per year- they might find a good market- not party animals, but those who wanted to try HAL -but are working full time and need shorter cruises.

[buckirj1]

I like the idea of older ships for 5 night cruises, as other cruise lines currently have. For example, Canada 4 or 5 night itineraries from New York on Carnival are quite successful, in my experience. To me, it's an almost perfect blend of sea and port days in a couple of my favorite ports: a day up, Halifax, a sea day, Saint John, and a day back. I'd love it if another cruiseline would do something similar from, say, Boston, that isn't the QM2 over Independence Day. Unfortunately, as I've said many times before, HAL is not an innovative cruise line by any means, and likely won't jump on a trend until its time has come and gone.

[igraf]

This article should answer your question:

 

http://www.frommers.com/articles/4397.html

 

igraf

 

 

 

 

....Question? How long can the smaller ships last with repairs?

10 more years, 20 more years?

[Stevedan]

I think the days of the mid-sized newbuilds are just about over. It's all about economy of scale now.

 

The many problems with plumbing, etc. on the S class ships is due, in part, to the lack of upkeep on ships today. Ships used to be put in drydock once a year, or once every other year at the longest, and the drydock would be for the better part of a month. There was time to actually address major issues. Now, drydockings are infrequent and only for a week or two. Also, there is very little down time for the ships in between cruises. Embarkation begins moments after debarkation ends, so there is no time for minor repairs (or proper cleaning and sanitizing, hence more Norovirus).

 

Just my 2 cents.

[foodgirl]

I would LOVE to see HAL do some shorter duration cruises, especially in the Caribbean. The season gets shorter and shorter. I didn't realize how much I appreciated the fact when HAL had a summer Caribbean season. We often cruised the Caribbean in June or July. It's how I got hooked on HAL in the mid-1990's.

 

 

We too wish there were more cruises to the Caribbean. My first HAL cruise was in the summer on the Zuiderdam and I fell in love with the line. We are unable to take longer cruises because of work. We love the 7 day and look forward to the time in our lives when we can go much longer but for now the limited schedule has us looking at other lines even though HAL is our preference.

We did the short 4 day on the Eurodam in December and while it was too short it was still enjoyable. There are many times when we could take a quick trip for a long weekend and we don't because HAL doesn't offer. We are looking at what Princess and Celebrity have to offer as options. I think of HAL wants to continue to attract younger (by that I mean not retired) then they need to extend the 7 day cruises to locations easily traveled to longer in the season. Just my opinion. I truly wish we could do the really long cruises but for now I live vicariously through all of you.

 

 

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[foodgirl]

Some have expressed interest in 5 day cruises. The best idea I have read so far- regarding this- is to have two 5 day Back to Back cruises to appeal to a larger segment of the population.

 

In our case, my daughter (who works in the medical field & can often only do 5 day cruises) could go with us for one portion and we could continue on for the other 5 days. That would create a 10 day cruise for some and a 5 day for others.

 

Many cruise lines use their older ships for short cruises. That does not mean eliminating the longer cruises on the older ships, but rather adding some shorter cruises. If HAL offered ten 5 day cruises per year- they might find a good market- not party animals, but those who wanted to try HAL -but are working full time and need shorter cruises.

 

 

We found that there were many first timers on our 4 day Eurodam cruise in December. We talked to many that wanted to try HAL and this was the perfect way to do it. It was not a party atmosphere at all. Maybe a tad younger than usual but not really that different. I like the idea of the 5 day back to back. Could keep both sides happy with that option.

 

 

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[cruiseapril]

igraf- Thank you for the link to a very interesting article about the age of cruise ships.

 

foodgirl- There are so many options for two 5 day Back to Back Caribbean cruises for HAL to consider. The big attraction, IMO, is Half Moon Cay.

 

According to the Distance Calculator:

St. Thomas is 374.8 nautical miles from Key West & Cozumel is 375.2 nautical miles from Key West

 

Consequently, it seems that 5 day cruises could possibly go as far as Cozumel or St. Thomas with the ports of Grand Cayman, Key West, Half Moon Cay, Grand Turk, Nassau, and Freeport as other ports.

 

 

We did a 5 day once to Grand Turk, Half Moon Cay, and Nassau. It was very good. We have found plenty of good excursions in Nassau- away from the cruise pier. Nassau gets a lot of negative reviews, but we think it is because people do not go far beyond the port. The Sheraton at Cable Beach is a fine beach day

for beach people in Nassau.

 

Hope HAL considers 5 day Back to Backs similar to what Princess is now offering.

Edited February 16, 2014 by cruiseapril

[Krazy Kruizers]

It is the longer cruises that attract us to HAL.

5 day cruises -- even if HAL would make to different itineraries -- total 10 days -- would definitely not be an attraction to us.

If HAL would offer more of these 5 day cruises, it would mean for us -- time to move onto another cruise line.

JMO

[sapper1]

I like the idea of older ships for 5 night cruises, as other cruise lines currently have. For example, Canada 4 or 5 night itineraries from New York on Carnival are quite successful, in my experience. To me, it's an almost perfect blend of sea and port days in a couple of my favorite ports: a day up, Halifax, a sea day, Saint John, and a day back. I'd love it if another cruiseline would do something similar from, say, Boston, that isn't the QM2 over Independence Day. Unfortunately, as I've said many times before, HAL is not an innovative cruise line by any means, and likely won't jump on a trend until its time has come and gone.

 

Full points for spelling out Saint John correctly!!!! Few do. :D

 

I think the success of the five day cruises out of New York is due to the fact that the port offers such easy, inexpensive access to such a large population base.

 

Here in the air transportation boonies that we live in, the cost of flights to Fort Lauderdale to take a quick five day cruise is so high that it just isn't worth it. We don't fly down to Florida for less than a fourteen day cruise. Our first few cruises were just short ones but we were in Florida anyway on vacation.

 

If we lived in an area where the cost of getting there was cost effective then the odd five day cruise would have some appeal. I was even checking out the reinstated seven day cruises to Bermuda and the cost of flights from here to Boston were almost as much as flying to Fort Lauderdale. It would be simpler to drive to Bangor, Maine and then take a bus to Boston. Of course when talking about travel from here, "simpler" really is a relative term.

[Taxguy77]

I also like the smaller ships, but their age and lack of repair is what is causing some of the A/C/ and plumbing issues that are causing many complaints.

 

I have a 2005 Toyota Avalon with 70,000 miles on it. It has had good care and proper service and I expect it to give me another year or so before I have to replace it. If it starts to give me trouble, then it will be replaced sooner.

 

The problems with some of the smaller ships is their problems.

 

Our 2003 Avalon has 74,000 miles, mostly due to having a second car until recently. Would love a new car, but the Avalon has so many luxury items it's hard to find a new affordable car. Not to mention the higher insurance cost in this area.

[cbr663]

That is why we were wondering if the older ships could be used for shorter cruises and the newer for the 14 day and more 10 day cruises with more varied ports.

 

Understand the appeal of smaller ships- we like them also. Also understand about being able to visit ports like St. Barts. Given the popularity of the smaller ships, it would seem that at least one or two new ones could be built.

 

Question? How long can the smaller ships last with repairs?

10 more years, 20 more years?

 

HAL plans for a 30 year life span for its ships.

[cbr663]

We found that there were many first timers on our 4 day Eurodam cruise in December. We talked to many that wanted to try HAL and this was the perfect way to do it. It was not a party atmosphere at all. Maybe a tad younger than usual but not really that different. I like the idea of the 5 day back to back. Could keep both sides happy with that option.

 

 

Sent using the Cruise Critic forums app

 

We would love to see more 5 day itineraries. It would allow us to cruise a lot more than we do now.

[cbr663]

My understanding is that the newest ship will be about like the Eurodam so I doubt they will be building smaller ships - economy of scale and all that.

 

 

The ship being built is heralding in a new class for HAL, the Pinnacle Class, and is larger than the Eurodam and NA. I think smaller ships will be a thing of the past for HAL.

[foodgirl]

This has been an interesting conversation. It shows me that HAL has passengers with very different needs. Some of you prefer the longer cruises and smaller ships and have the time to do so. Others like us really love HAL but our schedules don't permit longer trips at this time. I think it would be wise for HAL to offer options that would appeal to both. They seem to be leaving us out with shorter time in the Caribbean and more time overseas. I so love HMC and Grand Turk and wish they could be made into a short trip maybe including Bahamas or Key West which is another favorite. Much as I would love to do the Med or the Baltics for example (both on my bucket list) I can't take the time off to do so right now. We all know that decisions are made based on the money to be made so it remains to be seen what direction HAL will go with this. Our problem is that because the time in the Caribbean is so short it limits us to having to cruise the same time every year which isn't always feasible. We are looking at other options as we would like to cruise in May and as HAL is not an option will consider another line for the first time in many years. We are planning to go back to Alaska again in the next couple of years but even that requires special planning for time away from work. Just my perspective. Can you tell I wish I had a cruise planned???? :)

 

 

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[Ians Grandma]

Okay, I may be a little paranoid after reading "Burning Cold" but I do think about the age/condition of the Statendam and all of the sea days between Nuku Hiva and San Diego. If something were to go wrong on that long stretch it would take a long time for help to arrive. My son and I will be sailing to the South Pacific on her again this year but I would feel safer on a newer, bigger ship. I figure that if a ship looks a little tired superficially it must be the same for the internal areas of the ship as well. The small size is nice in many ways but I felt safer on the Westerdam.

Also, the Vista ships are more handicap accessible for passengers in wheelchairs. The Westerdam was the only ship where on son could always use the tender. While on the Veendam (Voyage of the Vikings)this past summer he was unable to tender at all.

My conclusion is that the newer ships are better for the longer cruises (for us) but are seldom offered.