US Law and cruise ships

[njhorseman]

I never said the US rules the planet. If you are in international waters you are in no one's country. Who's law do you follow? Why do cruise lines follow the no alcohol unless 21 or over when they have passengers from countries without that law? They are in the middle of the ocean, who is going to enforce the US law?

 

I agree, the root problem is the US govt, not the cruise lines. They are only doing what they can get away with, as all companies do. I just find it curious that they follow the US law on alcohol age and ADA while skirting tax and wage laws in the US.

 

In fact they often don't strictly follow US law on alcohol age, except while cruising in US waters. For example, on a cruise within European waters the drinking age on at least some lines is 18, not 21. And even on cruises departing from US ports some cruise lines allow 18 year olds to purchase wine and beer (but not spirits) with parental consent once the ship is in international waters.

 

They follow some ADA requirements (as to passenger accommodations, not crew employment and operations) because the US Supreme Court ordered it. (The ruling was several years ago in a lawsuit brought against NCL.)

Edited February 22, 2014 by njhorseman

[Hlitner]

test test testy

 

Hank

Edited February 22, 2014 by Hlitner

[BruceMuzz]

I never said the US rules the planet. If you are in international waters you are in no one's country. Who's law do you follow? Why do cruise lines follow the no alcohol unless 21 or over when they have passengers from countries without that law? They are in the middle of the ocean, who is going to enforce the US law?

 

I agree, the root problem is the US govt, not the cruise lines. They are only doing what they can get away with, as all companies do. I just find it curious that they follow the US law on alcohol age and ADA while skirting tax and wage laws in the US.

 

The regulations and laws that govern what happens on international ships are far more complicated than anyone here realizes.

 

First we have the laws and regulations from the Flag State. That is the country where the ship is registered and flagged. These laws and regulations apply in SOME cases and situations.

 

Then we have the laws and regulations of the Port State. That is the country where the ship is officially home ported. The port city and country are usually painted on the stern of the ship. These laws and regulations apply in SOME cases and situations.

 

Next are the laws and regulations of the port that the ship has most recently visited.These laws and regulations apply in SOME cases and situations. If an Italian citizen flies to Miami and immediately boards a cruise ship sailing to Europe, and wins a jackpot in the casino when the ship is in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean, the casino operator is legally required to deduct US Income taxes from the winnings before giving the remainder to the Italian passenger.

 

Next are the laws and regulations of the port that the ship is planning to visit next. These laws and regulations apply in SOME cases and situations.

 

Next are regulations - but not laws - enforced by the Certification Society that has certified the ship safe to operate. Lloyds and Det Norske Veritas are 2 of the biggest ones. They have a great deal to say about how and what is allowed on the ship. Their agreements with the shipping company on who is allowed to smoke and where, determine the rates the cruise line pays the insurance company.

 

Then we have the difficult ones:

 

American Political Correctness has more to say about how we operate than just about anything else. Most cruise ships enforce a 21 year old minimum drinking age only because American passengers would have a cow if they saw someone younger drinking - and the resulting lawsuits in American Courts would be very costly for the cruise lines.

Topless sunbathing? Forget it. The Americans won't like it.

 

American litigation is next. Your teen cannot work out in the passenger gym or go to the disco, and your children cannot stay together in the kids club if they are a few years apart, due to the numerous lawsuits started by American passengers whose children had some sort of problem there in the past.

 

American Navy and Coast Guard are next. They claim jurisdiction "over the 7 seas", and especially on any vessel where US passengers are sailing, anywhere in the world - or on any sister ship of any other ship that ever calls at a US Port. That is why the German Cruise Line "Aida" (owned by Carnival Corp) cannot sell Cuban cigars to a European passenger when the ship is sailing in Asia. If they do, the US Government will hit them with a US$ 1 Million fine and/or ban other Carnival Corp ships from calling at any US ports.

 

How much does it cost a cruise ship to follow American labor laws?

When NCL America started up their new cruise line in Hawaii, they had to follow all US labor and tax regulations and laws.

Their labor costs increased by US$1 million per month, per ship.

That extra cost guaranteed that they could never make a profit - despite charging much higher prices than the competition.

Sadly, the service levels went in the opposite direction, despite the highly paid service staff.

NCL was forced to fire most of the American staff, re-flag 2 of the 3 American ships to Bahamas, and move the ships to locations where they could employ Filipinos and Eastern Europeans.

Be careful what you wish for.........................

Edited February 22, 2014 by BruceMuzz

[BillB48]

Your closing words... "Be careful...." say it all! Thanks for the insight!

[sparks1093]

wanna guess what your 7 day cruise price will increase by if the line must pay US Union prices????

 

No need to guess, just look at what a week long cruise on NCL's Pride of America costs. My son and his finance were going to book the POA for their honeymoon, then I pointed out they could get a 14 day cruise to Hawaii out of LA on CCL for $1400 less than a week long cruise on the POA.

Edited February 22, 2014 by sparks1093

[sparks1093]

So in other words, we can cruise so cheap because they can legally pay the help crap?

 

As njhorseman, it's not crap compared to what they are able to earn in their home country. I looked at what Phillipino workers make in the hospitality industry at home and what they earn on the cruise ship (to start) is roughly 3 times what they could make at home.

[calliopecruiser]

No...the "mandatory" tips, service charges, or whatever your favorite cruise line calls them wouldn't begin to cover the increased cost if US wage and hour laws applied. Crew members often work 10-12 hour days, 7 days a week for months at a time. Under US law there would be huge overtime costs and the need to employ additional crew in order to make their employment conditions legal. The unions would also require benefits such as health insurance, retirement, etc. Federal unemployment insurance taxes would have to be paid.

 

It would be a massive increase in labor costs that will come out of the pockets of cruisers, not the cruise lines.[/QUOTE]

 

So in other words, we can cruise so cheap because they can legally pay the help crap?

 

 

 

Yes.

[masspector]

As njhorseman, it's not crap compared to what they are able to earn in their home country. I looked at what Phillipino workers make in the hospitality industry at home and what they earn on the cruise ship (to start) is roughly 3 times what they could make at home.

 

 

Not arguing with you, but that makes it OK?

 

In a race to the bottom guess where you end up? The bottom.

[sparks1093]

[/color]

 

 

Not arguing with you, but that makes it OK?

 

In a race to the bottom guess where you end up? The bottom.

 

For the employees involved I guess it does. Everyone can't start out at the top, economics doesn't work that way and it doesn't matter whether you are talking about individuals or countries. As I understand it the starting income for most waitstaff/steward positions is between $1500 and $2000 per month. The starting pay for someone in the US military is $1700. Don't see a huge disparity.

Edited February 22, 2014 by sparks1093

[navybankerteacher]

No...the "mandatory" tips, service charges, or whatever your favorite cruise line calls them wouldn't begin to cover the increased cost if US wage and hour laws applied. Crew members often work 10-12 hour days, 7 days a week for months at a time. Under US law there would be huge overtime costs and the need to employ additional crew in order to make their employment conditions legal. The unions would also require benefits such as health insurance, retirement, etc. Federal unemployment insurance taxes would have to be paid.

 

It would be a massive increase in labor costs that will come out of the pockets of cruisers, not the cruise lines.

 

All very good points. The ultimate result would be the end of affordable cruising as it is today because cruising with a level of service anywhere near what it is today would not just be more expensive, it would price the overwhelming majority out of the market.

[navybankerteacher]

No...the "mandatory" tips, service charges, or whatever your favorite cruise line calls them wouldn't begin to cover the increased cost if US wage and hour laws applied. Crew members often work 10-12 hour days, 7 days a week for months at a time. Under US law there would be huge overtime costs and the need to employ additional crew in order to make their employment conditions legal. The unions would also require benefits such as health insurance, retirement, etc. Federal unemployment insurance taxes would have to be paid.

 

It would be a massive increase in labor costs that will come out of the pockets of cruisers, not the cruise lines.[/QUOTE]

 

So in other words, we can cruise so cheap because they can legally pay the help crap?

 

Your closing comment, while crudely put, does explain how the cruise industry works. Ships can be staffed because the conditions in the staff's home countries make cruise jobs very attractive to those who work on cruise ships. Without that sort of staffing, cruising could not exist.

 

How would destroying that source of jobs help the people whom you feel are paid "crap"?

[njhorseman]

 

Your closing comment, while crudely put, does explain how the cruise industry works. Ships can be staffed because the conditions in the staff's home countries make cruise jobs very attractive to those who work on cruise ships. Without that sort of staffing, cruising could not exist.

 

How would destroying that source of jobs help the people whom you feel are paid "crap"?

 

Because of the way a prior post was quoted, your words "while crudely put" might be misconstrued as referring to what I wrote, when in fact it refers to something written by "masspector".

[navybankerteacher]

Because of the way a prior post was quoted, your words "while crudely put" might be misconstrued as referring to what I wrote, when in fact it refers to something written by "masspector".

 

You're right- reviewing how the chain of posts appeared, it did obscure masspector's misguided, egalitarian-inspired introduction of that unfortunate term for highly desirable employment opportunity for many thousands of people.

[dkjretired]

The regulations and laws that govern what happens on international ships are far more complicated than anyone here realizes.

 

First we have the laws and regulations from the Flag State. That is the country where the ship is registered and flagged. These laws and regulations apply in SOME cases and situations.

 

Then we have the laws and regulations of the Port State. That is the country where the ship is officially home ported. The port city and country are usually painted on the stern of the ship. These laws and regulations apply in SOME cases and situations.

 

Next are the laws and regulations of the port that the ship has most recently visited.These laws and regulations apply in SOME cases and situations. If an Italian citizen flies to Miami and immediately boards a cruise ship sailing to Europe, and wins a jackpot in the casino when the ship is in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean, the casino operator is legally required to deduct US Income taxes from the winnings before giving the remainder to the Italian passenger.

 

Next are the laws and regulations of the port that the ship is planning to visit next. These laws and regulations apply in SOME cases and situations.

 

Next are regulations - but not laws - enforced by the Certification Society that has certified the ship safe to operate. Lloyds and Det Norske Veritas are 2 of the biggest ones. They have a great deal to say about how and what is allowed on the ship. Their agreements with the shipping company on who is allowed to smoke and where, determine the rates the cruise line pays the insurance company.

 

Then we have the difficult ones:

 

American Political Correctness has more to say about how we operate than just about anything else. Most cruise ships enforce a 21 year old minimum drinking age only because American passengers would have a cow if they saw someone younger drinking - and the resulting lawsuits in American Courts would be very costly for the cruise lines.

Topless sunbathing? Forget it. The Americans won't like it.

 

American litigation is next. Your teen cannot work out in the passenger gym or go to the disco, and your children cannot stay together in the kids club if they are a few years apart, due to the numerous lawsuits started by American passengers whose children had some sort of problem there in the past.

 

American Navy and Coast Guard are next. They claim jurisdiction "over the 7 seas", and especially on any vessel where US passengers are sailing, anywhere in the world - or on any sister ship of any other ship that ever calls at a US Port. That is why the German Cruise Line "Aida" (owned by Carnival Corp) cannot sell Cuban cigars to a European passenger when the ship is sailing in Asia. If they do, the US Government will hit them with a US$ 1 Million fine and/or ban other Carnival Corp ships from calling at any US ports.

 

How much does it cost a cruise ship to follow American labor laws?

When NCL America started up their new cruise line in Hawaii, they had to follow all US labor and tax regulations and laws.

Their labor costs increased by US$1 million per month, per ship.

That extra cost guaranteed that they could never make a profit - despite charging much higher prices than the competition.

Sadly, the service levels went in the opposite direction, despite the highly paid service staff.

NCL was forced to fire most of the American staff, re-flag 2 of the 3 American ships to Bahamas, and move the ships to locations where they could employ Filipinos and Eastern Europeans.

Be careful what you wish for.........................

 

I always thought many of the cruises line did things that are really inconsistent. For example do you know how many lines have a drinking age of 21 yet the gambling age is 18. The other thing I thought was funny is that some lines require parents to sign waivers for their 18 to 21yr. olds even though in the US and most jurisdictions that I am aware of they are emancipated at 18. Sort of inconsistent but I realize that the cruise lines can do what they want.

 

Since there appear to a couple of lawyers on the board, I have a legal question based on cruising that I have been trying to get answered since 2003.

 

We took a cruise on Celebrity Galaxy in 2003 out of Baltimore. If anyone has sailed out of Baltimore you do not get to the Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel for about 8 hours. During that time you are sailing with Maryland on both sides of you down the river and into the Bay. One half hour after we left the pier, the casino opened and many including myself were gambling before going to dinner. Most I'm sure have been told that the casinos can't open until your are out of US Jurisdiction. Any answers. I'm guessing it probably had to do with whatever contracts they made with the state that allowed the cruise ship to sail out of Baltimore.

[smeyer418]

...

 

American Political Correctness has more to say about how we operate than just about anything else. Most cruise ships enforce a 21 year old minimum drinking age only because American passengers would have a cow if they saw someone younger drinking - and the resulting lawsuits in American Courts would be very costly for the cruise lines.

Topless sunbathing? Forget it. The Americans won't like it.

 

American litigation is next. Your teen cannot work out in the passenger gym or go to the disco, and your children cannot stay together in the kids club if they are a few years apart, due to the numerous lawsuits started by American passengers whose children had some sort of problem there in the past.

 

...........

 

In fact there is a specific US law that covers injuries on board. a ship that starts, stops or ends in a US port cannot disclaim liability for a physical injury caused its the cruise line or its employees or agents negligence. It can however try to chose the venue where the suit will take place. also there is a legal theory called "comity" which limits what another country can impose on another country..but that is a balancing test. US law is clear that a us national(more than just a citizen- it includes permanent residents) are subject to US law where ever they are. If a US national is injured or hurt US law may cover those who hurt them as well. The US ADA decision(Spector V NCL) talks about this balancing see http://www.oyez.org/cases/2000-2009/2004/2004_03_1388/

 

http://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/545/03-1388/

Edited February 22, 2014 by smeyer418

[smeyer418]

I always thought many of the cruises line did things that are really inconsistent. For example do you know how many lines have a drinking age of 21 yet the gambling age is 18. The other thing I thought was funny is that some lines require parents to sign waivers for their 18 to 21yr. olds even though in the US and most jurisdictions that I am aware of they are emancipated at 18. Sort of inconsistent but I realize that the cruise lines can do what they want.

 

Since there appear to a couple of lawyers on the board, I have a legal question based on cruising that I have been trying to get answered since 2003.

 

We took a cruise on Celebrity Galaxy in 2003 out of Baltimore. If anyone has sailed out of Baltimore you do not get to the Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel for about 8 hours. During that time you are sailing with Maryland on both sides of you down the river and into the Bay. One half hour after we left the pier, the casino opened and many including myself were gambling before going to dinner. Most I'm sure have been told that the casinos can't open until your are out of US Jurisdiction. Any answers. I'm guessing it probably had to do with whatever contracts they made with the state that allowed the cruise ship to sail out of Baltimore.

 

 

They don't wait until they are outside NY harbor either....I think its more or less left up to someone to report them. Technically US economic jurisdiction actually goes out 200 miles or to the end of the continental shelf.

[Capt_BJ]

American Navy and Coast Guard are next. They claim jurisdiction "over the 7 seas", and especially on any vessel where US passengers are sailing, anywhere in the world - or on any sister ship of any other ship that ever calls at a US Port.

 

Oh please ... are you serious with this statement?

 

The NAVY and Coast Guard don't 'claim' anything .... they implement the policies of the Federal Government

 

As Captain of a US Coast Guard Cutter I NEVER had jurisdiction over a not US flagged ship - cruise or other wise - unless the State Department had negotiated a long term relationship or a one time "statement of no objection."

 

{caveat ... sometimes the vessel fell into the definition of 'stateless' and there is an internationally recognized process for 'authorities' to investigate stateless vessels. Does not apply in ANY WAY to a cruise ship however as I've never seen one I thought was stateless}

Edited February 22, 2014 by Capt_BJ

[dkjretired]

They don't wait until they are outside NY harbor either....I think its more or less left up to someone to report them. Technically US economic jurisdiction actually goes out 200 miles or to the end of the continental shelf.

 

I've done four cruises out of NY/NJ in the past two years and they certainly do wait until your outside the harbor. Usually they say half an hour after leaving the pier.

Edited February 23, 2014 by dkjretired

[BruceMuzz]

American Navy and Coast Guard are next. They claim jurisdiction "over the 7 seas", and especially on any vessel where US passengers are sailing, anywhere in the world - or on any sister ship of any other ship that ever calls at a US Port.

 

Oh please ... are you serious with this statement?

 

The NAVY and Coast Guard don't 'claim' anything .... they implement the policies of the Federal Government

 

As Captain of a US Coast Guard Cutter I NEVER had jurisdiction over a not US flagged ship - cruise or other wise - unless the State Department had negotiated a long term relationship or a one time "statement of no objection."

 

{caveat ... sometimes the vessel fell into the definition of 'stateless' and there is an internationally recognized process for 'authorities' to investigate stateless vessels. Does not apply in ANY WAY to a cruise ship however as I've never seen one I thought was stateless}

 

Maybe as a USCG Captain YOU never had jurisdiction, but some of your previous colleagues tell me differently.

 

I'm not a US Citizen, so I really do not know how your military people operate.

But when we have USCG inspections, or the USCG gets involved in something we are doing, I ask many questions.

Your former colleagues have been very forthcoming - and very clear - that they consider the entire planet under their jurisdiction.

Our legal department has cautioned us that in dealing with these characters, we go along with their claims to avoid any "difficulties" with your government in US ports.

[smeyer418]

I've done four cruises out of NY/NJ in the past two years and they certainly do wait until your outside the harbor. Usually they say half an hour after leaving the pier.

I have done about 20 out of NY and sometimes they cheat and open early. By the way assuming 10 knots to start, half an hour puts them north of the V-N bridge....still in the harbor.

[njhorseman]

My informal observation is that when leaving from NY harbor the casino opens when the harbor pilot leaves the ship.

[Hlitner]

My informal observation is that when leaving from NY harbor the casino opens when the harbor pilot leaves the ship.

 

Pretty much right on the mark. We did a crossing on the Queen Mary with a table mate who was a retired NYC Harbor Pilot. What we learned is interesting. They actually have a harbor pilot ship on station quite a few miles out to sea. The NYC pilots stay with the ship until they are well off the coast and then are picked-up and taken to their mother ship. They wait (and sleep) on the mother ship until it is their turn, and then they pick up another ship for the long trip in through the NY shipping scheme. He told us he loved bringing cruise ships into NYC. He also told us the worst was boarding a large tanker of freighter on an icy night, when their ladders were just a sheet of ice.

 

But my point is that when the harbor pilot gets off the ship it is just about in international waters. Let the fun begin :)

 

Hank

Edited February 23, 2014 by Hlitner

[dkjretired]

Any answers to my question about Baltimore.

[njhorseman]

Any answers to my question about Baltimore.

 

I haven't cruised from Baltimore, but your observation about how early the casino opened after leaving port doesn't jibe with my recollection of what other Cruise Critic posters have reported.

 

Perhaps because your experience was more than a decade ago, enforcement of the law at that time was different than what it is now and the cruise lines have subsequently been told they can't open the casinos that early.

[dsrdsrdsr]

Maybe as a USCG Captain YOU never had jurisdiction, but some of your previous colleagues tell me differently.

 

...

 

Your former colleagues have been very forthcoming - and very clear - that they consider the entire planet under their jurisdiction.

Our legal department has cautioned us that in dealing with these characters, we go along with their claims to avoid any "difficulties" with your government in US ports.

So to clarify - if a US Navy ship somewhere in the Mediteraanean approaches a Bahamian registered British liner, and says they're sending over a boarding party to arrest a few members of the crew for no specified reason, will the Captain of the ship allow them on board or not? I suspect not. I can claim jurisdiction over the White House, but if I get to the front door and the guard doesn't let me in, my claim counts for diddly squat.