Maybe Celebrity Does Have a Plan

[barbjd106]

Just got off the Reflection yesterday.

 

Lots of drinking going on. That being said it was a 7 day Caribbean, so maybe it goes with the territory. I did not see a particularly chic 30's age group on the ship but maybe I missed it.

 

They cut back on trivia and other activities; staff member said that do not go along with the new idea of modern luxury. What trivia they did have was well attended.

 

Blu is over rated.

 

Bistro on Five remains under utilized except for the last day.

 

Not enough enrichment programs.

 

Service is generally excellent with staff going above and beyond.

 

We changed our holiday cruise from Celebrity to Cunard while on the ship as Cunard is more to our liking.

 

Barbara

[dbsb3233]

Just got off the Reflection yesterday.

 

Lots of drinking going on. That being said it was a 7 day Caribbean, so maybe it goes with the territory. I did not see a particularly chic 30's age group on the ship but maybe I missed it.

 

They cut back on trivia and other activities; staff member said that do not go along with the new idea of modern luxury. What trivia they did have was well attended.

 

Blu is over rated.

 

Bistro on Five remains under utilized except for the last day.

 

Not enough enrichment programs.

 

Service is generally excellent with staff going above and beyond.

 

We changed our holiday cruise from Celebrity to Cunard while on the ship as Cunard is more to our liking.

 

Barbara

Well that's disappointing. Trivia is our favorite onboard activity. :(

Edited March 16, 2014 by dbsb3233

[cle-guy]

 

Celebrity is increasing, significantly, the charges for suites and they are going to have to provide extra benefits to justify the increase in prices. .]

 

 

I have been curious about this. Can you point to a particular fare increase as guidance that you've come across?

 

I've assumed fares will go up to cover lost revenue of the drinks and specialty dining etc., and am trying to document such things.... As there could also be an aspect that they feel the need to provide those enhancements just to keep pace with alternate lines with finer suite experiences.

 

End of day I want to analyze that the fare went up $2000 on a 7 day cruise, and the drink package and specialty dining would have sold for $1500 by themselves, therefore the true suite fare increase is $500 to cove the new things like private dining etc., or maybe it's less....thats the analysis I'm trying to pull together.

 

If you have any specific sailings you've noted the suite fares go up on, I'd love to have them....

[phoenix_dream]

Amazing, isn't it, how much some people complain about changes, which are ALWAYS for the worse, never for the better according to them. You would think they have never changed anything in their own lives before. Nothing stays static. If it did, it would become worn out, boring, and just not worth doing anymore. But, some people's lives are stuck in the past, too afraid of moving forward and having new experiences and adventures. I feel sorry for them for the fear they must have about being left behind as life around steadily them moves on.

 

We agree that not all changes are bad. Some are positive and enjoyable. But often times on these boards people get criticized for not liking change, being stuck in the past, etc.. For the record, while change is not always for the worse it definitely is not always for the better. The older I get the more changes I have to deal with and believe me when I tell you, all of the changes are not good. Aging bodies, illness, loss of friends and loved ones, getting laid off after 25 years of employment - just some of what I have experienced (and I am certainly not alone). You didn't personally quote the 'change is good' mantra, but have heard it more than once on these boards. True, we are talking about less life-altering subjects here, but the truth is the same that what is a good change for you may not necessarily be a good change for someone else.

 

I would argue as well that in some cases (agreed, not all) something staying the same is not worn out, boring, or just not worth doing anymore. Many of the things I enjoyed about cruising in years past I would still enjoy if there were still present (many are, and others are lost forever it seems). Of course there are changes for the better as well. I appreciate them, and enjoy them. But I feel the need to speak up for those commenting on certain changes they do not like. It is simply a mistakenly gross assumption to know that these reactions are due to people being resistant to change, stuck in the past, etc.. I obviously do not know you or your age or background (nor do you about those you are judging, so please spare the sympathy), but I suspect that these types of posts most often come from young people who have yet to have 'been there; done that'. To them I say, come back in 20/30 years when you have many cruises and other experiences behind you, and then see how YOU have changed and how much YOU will miss some of the things that made those experiences so enjoyable. You may be surprised:)

[countingbackwards]

Having recently made final payment on my first Celebrity cruise, and being in that 30's demographic people are talking about, having done various vacations including all-inclusives, Disney and other cruises - I feel in a good position to comment here as to Celebrity's "direction" even if I haven't sailed them in the past. Some points about their direction:

 

1) 30 and 40-somethings tend to travel with children, particularly on 7-day itineraries that Celebrity does to Bermuda and the Caribbean. Given that they don't have the "wow factor" kid features, the 30-40 something crowd coming on board will tend to be limited to those who have an interest in some quality family time combined with quality kids club…but who don't want to be with hoards of kids and the noise that comes with it. This significantly limits Celebrity's ability to attract the 30-40 somethings regardless of marketing, drink packages, etc.

 

2) Having sailed on Carnival a couple of years ago, I found that the constant push to consume alcohol on-board (I was literally offered a drink every 5 minutes on the first day) was so off-putting that my wife and I both had less to drink than we wanted to…because we want to drink when WE want to drink, and never felt that we were "in control" of our choice to have a drink - so we didn't have any. And mystery colourful drinks with a million calories aren't what we want: we want creative drinks made with quality ingredients (including name-brand alcohol).

 

3) Celebrity's key selling point to me, is the concept of "quality". I'm not looking for a big plate in the MDR, I'm looking for one made with quality ingredients. After all, it's a cruise ship, and there's always food available - so there's no reason to overeat. I'm not looking for 3 litres of wine, I'm looking for a few glasses of excellent wine. And I'm not looking for the lowest possible price - I'm looking for the best value. I'll definitely drink more being on the 1-2-3 GO package, as will my wife and kids, and my wife and I will probably upgrade to Premium in order to drink higher quality (not quantity) drinks. It's not the cheapest way to go - but it will be freeing and fun. From a parent's perspective…I like the option to offer my kids fresh-squeezed juices rather than sugary drinks - yes they have sugar, but at least fresh-squeezed juices are real natural food.

 

4) The key here is that quality doesn't get cut. I'm not bothered if I need to go get my drinks and wait a couple of minutes (within reason) to get them - but the value of the free drinks package is that they are awesome drinks, creating a very high-quality vacation. Grey Goose vodka in interesting martinis, nice red wines, sparkling wines, interesting craft beers…these are drinks that you savour, not drinks to "pound back".

 

5) Something that I didn't like on Carnival was that it seemed like lower-grade ingredients were used on most food in the MDR than I'd expect in a fine-dining establishment. It was decent enough food - I wasn't left wanting, and my wife enjoyed the no-charge sushi bar, but it wasn't at all to the level I remembered from RCI in the Mediterranean in 2003. I don't know how much of that is changes in the industry or differences between cruise lines, but I'm hoping to see a higher standard of food on Celebrity than we saw on Carnival.

 

So basically…in my view, the #1 selling point for Celebrity is quality. They don't offer as many entertainment nor amenity options as other main stream cruise lines, so they need to offer superior service, superior food quality and superior drink quality, combined with a more relaxed environment where you don't feel as if a hand is reaching for your wallet at all times. If they don't offer these advantages, there is no reason to sail with them.

Edited March 16, 2014 by countingbackwards
Grammar...

[ghstudio]

countingbackwards.....great post. You are probably the demographic that celebrity should be focused on....and I'd love to cruise with you and your family.

[Going Coastal]

We are longtime Celebrity cruisers and on the past year have also tried both Azamara and Oceania twice each and have future cruises with all three booked. Most of our cruising friends also use various lines depending on the itinerary and value for money.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Forums mobile app

[cherylxox]

I recently watched a Youtube video with a Director from the Reflection (forget who/can't find the link on Youtube) who described their rebranding initiative to attract individuals who enjoy 'modern luxury' and what he was describing was exactly what appeals to my husband and I who are:

 

Childless

Mid-20's (27 & 29)

Middle/upper incomes

 

The first time I looked at photos of the Celebrity ships specifically the Reflection which we're sailing on March 22 (6 days!) - it reminded me of a hotel on the Vegas strip (which we also love visting for the decor, atmosphere, inexpensive american drinks and high end dining options).

 

Yes, I do enjoy loud music and drinks - I also enjoy napping throughout the day and being in bed before 11pm with a good book.

 

I'm looking forward to seeing if cruising will end up being what we want in a vacation moving forward as resorts aren't really for us.

[richsea]

I have been curious about this. Can you point to a particular fare increase as guidance that you've come across?

 

I've assumed fares will go up to cover lost revenue of the drinks and specialty dining etc., and am trying to document such things.... As there could also be an aspect that they feel the need to provide those enhancements just to keep pace with alternate lines with finer suite experiences.

 

End of day I want to analyze that the fare went up $2000 on a 7 day cruise, and the drink package and specialty dining would have sold for $1500 by themselves, therefore the true suite fare increase is $500 to cove the new things like private dining etc., or maybe it's less....thats the analysis I'm trying to pull together.

 

If you have any specific sailings you've noted the suite fares go up on, I'd love to have them....

 

I doubt if fare increases for suites as a result of the new suite perks because the biggest, most expensive new perk is the addition of the dedicated suite restaurant, & that doesn't take place until April 2015, which coincidentally, is as far as the schedule went when they made the announcement, so they most likely woud not increase those fares. Perhaps someone can compare the original suite costs on a particular sailing on the old schedule, to the cost of a suite on a comparable sailing on the new extended schedule.

[dbsb3233]

I recently watched a Youtube video with a Director from the Reflection (forget who/can't find the link on Youtube) who described their rebranding initiative to attract individuals who enjoy 'modern luxury' and what he was describing was exactly what appeals to my husband and I who are:

 

Childless

Mid-20's (27 & 29)

Middle/upper incomes

 

The first time I looked at photos of the Celebrity ships specifically the Reflection which we're sailing on March 22 (6 days!) - it reminded me of a hotel on the Vegas strip (which we also love visting for the decor, atmosphere, inexpensive american drinks and high end dining options).

 

Yes, I do enjoy loud music and drinks - I also enjoy napping throughout the day and being in bed before 11pm with a good book.

 

I'm looking forward to seeing if cruising will end up being what we want in a vacation moving forward as resorts aren't really for us.

This one?...

 

[k9x8]

While my understanding is that alcohol sales are a cruise line's biggest (sometimes ONLY) profit center, I suspect it's not quite up in the 900% range. As you alluded to, the cost structure to serve drinks includes a lot more than the cost of the alcohol, it includes the servers, and the deliveries to the ports, and the taxes, and the storage, and the facilities, etc. etc.

 

We also have to remember that the "cost" to such a promo isn't just what it costs to provide those drinks, it also includes the loss of alcohol sales revenue that they'd be getting if people didn't have the free package. And that may be the biggest cost of all, considering how some people rack up HUGE alcohol bills on these cruise ships.

 

If there were any loss, it wouldn't be happening.

I've looked at a site that shows fare histories, and many, many fares jumped last November. Some of the Reflection Med cruises show Aqua jumping over $1000. Free drink package? I don't think so.

 

No, it's not 900%, but it's quite a bit. Alcohol is 20-25% of the drink price, and a 75% profit over the cost of the alcohol is pretty basic. Mixers, garnishes and juices are reasonably cheap, especially when purchased in bulk.

 

Have you noticed a glass of wine is more expensive than most cocktails these days? The Sunset Bar charged for a glass of Shiraz what I pay for a bottle in the grocery store. (The same wine was $1.50 less on Royal, by the way.) Point is, if Celebrity "gives" you $100 worth of beverages, it isn't costing them anywhere near $100.

 

 

 

Sure, you have to factor in overhead, but a lot of that is fixed costs

[cle-guy]

I doubt if fare increases for suites as a result of the new suite perks because the biggest, most expensive new perk is the addition of the dedicated suite restaurant, & that doesn't take place until April 2015, which coincidentally, is as far as the schedule went when they made the announcement, so they most likely woud not increase those fares. Perhaps someone can compare the original suite costs on a particular sailing on the old schedule, to the cost of a suite on a comparable sailing on the new extended schedule.

 

Pretty much what I've been finding. The post I replied to had stated that they had significantly raised prices, and so far I just haven't seen the increase and was hoping to find actual data rather than assumptions and rhetoric.....am awaiting the release of the april itineraries though to see...

 

As I like to cruise in suites, this fare increase if (when) it comes will affect me, unless I can justify it by having include other things I typically pay for anyhow once on board. But I seriously wonder how much of this addition is to get in line with others' suite programs such as NCL just to be caught up with the competition.

 

I don't think the special restaurant adds to much cost other than the necessary remodeling etc., which public space refreshes are planned anyhow in capital budgets. It won't displace anyone eating dinner as there were 2000 people eating someplace, now theres 200 eating here and 1800 eating there, so the cost of the food won't be dramatically different than if they served suite guests anyplace else. It won't add staff since there is only so much room for staff to live on board, so no cost there either.

 

I just crave actual data points in these discussions....and sen to rarely ever get that!

 

I think one thing many regular cruisers pay no attention to is the "Law of Diminishing Returns" from economics class. Basically, the more you have access to or partake in some activity, the less you actually want to do so, and over time you start finding fault with the activity to justify your vision that you no longer perceive it as awesome as it used to be, even though in reality, not much has really changed over time, just one's perception.

[dbsb3233]

If there were any loss, it wouldn't be happening.

I've looked at a site that shows fare histories, and many, many fares jumped last November. Some of the Reflection Med cruises show Aqua jumping over $1000. Free drink package? I don't think so.

 

No, it's not 900%, but it's quite a bit. Alcohol is 20-25% of the drink price, and a 75% profit over the cost of the alcohol is pretty basic. Mixers, garnishes and juices are reasonably cheap, especially when purchased in bulk.

 

Have you noticed a glass of wine is more expensive than most cocktails these days? The Sunset Bar charged for a glass of Shiraz what I pay for a bottle in the grocery store. (The same wine was $1.50 less on Royal, by the way.) Point is, if Celebrity "gives" you $100 worth of beverages, it isn't costing them anywhere near $100.

 

Sure, you have to factor in overhead, but a lot of that is fixed costs

75% profit (i.e. 300% mark-up) sounds more like the ballpark I'd expect. Either way, you're right - it's a very high markup. I've seen documentaries that suggest alcohol is most of the profit from a cruise.

 

And I totally agree... it's not a "free" beverage package, it's coming out of somewhere else (like the base fares). I booked our Asia cruise (that we're taking next month) last July, before the 123 Go promo. I checked prices for the same cabin category a few months ago (when the 123 Go promo was running). The base cruise fares were $hundreds higher for all 3 cabin classes we have (our small group has one each of an inside, OV, and balcony cabin booked).

[cle-guy]

75% profit (i.e. 300% mark-up) sounds more like the ballpark I'd expect. Either way, you're right - it's a very high markup. I've seen documentaries that suggest alcohol is most of the profit from a cruise.

 

 

F&B Establishments typically want a 17-20% beverage cost and under 30% food cost (that would mean 80-83% profit on drinks served).

 

So generally, profit would be even more than 75% following industry norms, and I expect on a ship, it might even be better given volume purchasing and ability to purchase closer to the spruce as they travel.

[Dr. Cocktail]

I think one thing many regular cruisers pay no attention to is the "Law of Diminishing Returns" from economics class. Basically, the more you have access to or partake in some activity, the less you actually want to do so, and over time you start finding fault with the activity to justify your vision that you no longer perceive it as awesome as it used to be, even though in reality, not much has really changed over time, just one's perception.

 

 

Sorry, but I don't really think that you get to comment on this. You can't use this line of reasoning as you don't have any real history with the company. My partner and I have sailed on Celebrity for over 20 years (he's in his late 40's and I am 50) with a total of about 240 days on board on 33 cruises.

 

After our cruise on Summit last May, we had one of our few disagreements - I said you couldn't pay me to return whereas he said that I was being overly dramatic. He would never pay to return but could, in fact, be paid to do so!

 

The new ships are beautiful and unlike many others, I don't really care either way about the volume or type of music onboard. I do care that most of the music is now prerecorded and much of the live music is now gone.

I care that the food consists of ingredients that are far inferior to what was used in the past and that service levels are greatly reduced in the dining rooms and in the cabins. I care that maintenance and upkeep are poor and most shockingly of all, I care that fares are far too low to support a truly excellent product.

 

Unfortunately, I am at an awkward stage ... I find Celebrity delivers (on their Solstice class ships) excellent hardware but really pathetic software.

 

Whereas we love the food, service and accommodations on Oceania, the product is a bit precious overall with very staid interior design.

 

Getting tired of a product's diminishment is very clearly distinguished in my own mind from just getting tired of a product!

[CHEZMARYLOU]

I doubt if fare increases for suites as a result of the new suite perks because the biggest, most expensive new perk is the addition of the dedicated suite restaurant, & that doesn't take place until April 2015, which coincidentally, is as far as the schedule went when they made the announcement, so they most likely woud not increase those fares. Perhaps someone can compare the original suite costs on a particular sailing on the old schedule, to the cost of a suite on a comparable sailing on the new extended schedule.

 

I've done a comparison of 2 sailings on M class ships since that is what we are sailing on in July and will be booking to Canada. The earlier date prices are from a popular web site and are the prices that were first offered.

 

Panama Canal West Bound Infinity 3/29/15 vs 3/27/16 increases are:

PH $800 9.5%

RS $600 9.5%

CS $450 9.5%

S1 $250 6.5%

S2 $250 7%

 

Alaska South Bound Millennium 7/25/14 vs 7/24/15 increases are:

PH $2,000 28.5%

RS $600 12%

CS $550 14%

S1 $200 6%

S2 $150 5%

 

The % increases seem to be al over the board especially for the 7 day Alaska cruise.

 

Mary Lou

[cle-guy]

Sorry, but I don't really think that you get to comment on this. You can't use this line of reasoning as you don't have any real history with the company. My partner and I have sailed on Celebrity for over 20 years (he's in his late 40's and I am 50) with a total of about 240 days on board on 33 cruises.

 

After our cruise on Summit last May, we had one of our few disagreements - I said you couldn't pay me to return whereas he said that I was being overly dramatic. He would never pay to return but could, in fact, be paid to do so!

 

The new ships are beautiful and unlike many others, I don't really care either way about the volume or type of music onboard. I do care that most of the music is now prerecorded and much of the live music is now gone.

I care that the food consists of ingredients that are far inferior to what was used in the past and that service levels are greatly reduced in the dining rooms and in the cabins. I care that maintenance and upkeep are poor and most shockingly of all, I care that fares are far too low to support a truly excellent product.

 

Unfortunately, I am at an awkward stage ... I find Celebrity delivers (on their Solstice class ships) excellent hardware but really pathetic software.

 

Whereas we love the food, service and accommodations on Oceania, the product is a bit precious overall with very staid interior design.

 

Getting tired of a product's diminishment is very clearly distinguished in my own mind from just getting tired of a product!

 

Fair enough, I kind of agree with this. Although to have an apples-to-apples comparison cruise fares should have remained even with the rate of inflation in order to keep the facilities and offerings the same.

 

So a $2000 cabin today should have sold for $700 in 1980, or $1100 according the the CPI calculator. http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=2%2C000.00&year1=2014&year2=1990

 

So as long as you are finding that you are paying double for your cruises today versus the hey-day of cruising, then yes they are taking perks and quality away. If however one finds fares are the same or less, then one needs to scale back expectations on services rendered as its mathematically impossible to have the same today versus then without paying more or if in fact paying less.

 

Problem with the USA, we keep having out government give us more stuff and lower our taxes, but never figure out how to pay for it.

 

Also eating patterns and trends have changed dramatically over the years, people want smaller portions, less carbs, different flavors, more variety than people wanted in the past. This can be viewed as inferior by those who still want a thick steak and a heap of mashed potatoes and rolls and can only get a medallion of been toped with a scoop of mash with a carrot over the top of it. e npow want smaller and more petite deserts, not the big baked alaska on fire table side.

[Dr. Cocktail]

[quote name=cle-guy;42071977 If however one finds fares are the same or less' date=' then one needs to scale back expectations on services rendered as its mathematically impossible to have the same today versus then without paying more or if in fact paying less.

 

 

That's the problem! On my third cruise on Celebrity in 1992 we paid about $700 (or roughly $1400 in today's dollars) for an inside cabin. On our return, we just couldn't figure out how they were able to provide the quality at such a low price. Last May, I noted that the lead in price on Summit was actually $525 .... the math just doesn't add up.

 

 

Also eating patterns and trends have changed dramatically over the years, people want smaller portions, less carbs, different flavors, more variety than people wanted in the past. This can be viewed as inferior by those who still want a thick steak and a heap of mashed potatoes and rolls and can only get a medallion of been toped with a scoop of mash with a carrot over the top of it. e npow want smaller and more petite deserts, not the big baked alaska on fire table side.

 

I agree but as someone who still makes a hot dinner every night, I am appalled at the quality of ingredients that are now used.

When I have the beef on Celebrity, I always glance down at my feet to see if part of my shoe is missing! The Michel Roux menus of the product 20 years ago were masterpieces of American favourites meet Nouvelle Cuisine. But of course, that was one of the reasons why the product essentially couldn't make it in the marketplace and was taken over by RCI. They spent too much and charged too little.

 

I am very willing to pay for what true quality really costs.

 

Unfortunately, the product that I want doesn't exist - contemporary, cutting edge design and artwork with great food using quality ingredients. Having said that, the upcoming Viking Ocean looks very promising ....

 

[4774Papa]

[/color]

 

I agree but as someone who still makes a hot dinner every night, I am appalled at the quality of ingredients that are now used.

When I have the beef on Celebrity, I always glance down at my feet to see if part of my shoe is missing! The Michel Roux menus of the product 20 years ago were masterpieces of American favourites meet Nouvelle Cuisine. But of course, that was one of the reasons why the product essentially couldn't make it in the marketplace and was taken over by RCI. They spent too much and charged too little.

 

I am very willing to pay for what true quality really costs.

 

Unfortunately, the product that I want doesn't exist - contemporary, cutting edge design and artwork with great food using quality ingredients. Having said that, the upcoming Viking Ocean looks very promising ....

 

I believe that the food served on cruises is subject to a wide variety of opinions. Food can be very subjective, but I have seven Celebrity cruises in the past 4 years and never had a bad meal on X. I have on perhaps two occasions asked for another main dish, but not because the food was like shoe leather. Frankly, I find comments like comparing beef on X to shoe leather to be worthless. Even though, you are clearly exaggerating, such a statement has little value. Perhaps the beef you had was not up to standard. That is possible. I don't eat beef as regularly as I once did, but in a two week cruise will normally have beef about three times. I have never had beef that wasn't either excellent or very good.

Still, perhaps you did have a poor meal, despite the fact that with seven cruises of an average of 14 days each, I have yet to encounter such bad beef.

 

Consistency is one of the things that I like about Celebrity. Still, I have noticed on some ships or cruises that the food can be slightly above or below what I generally have found on X.

 

I do wonder of some people have just been on so many cruises that what happens is the cruiser finds familiarity breeds some contempt. I don't know.

Perhaps some posters are trying to show their vast experience with fine cuisine and want to show off that knowledge. I don't know.

 

I do hope you find good food on a cruise in the future.

[wallie5446]

[/color]

 

But of course, that was one of the reasons why the product essentially couldn't make it in the marketplace and was taken over by RCI.

 

Take over? Not according to what the balance sheet shows was paid out to acquire the Company.

 

We have had similar dinning experiences as 4774Papa in our 20 years of sailing Celebrity, Better than the other 6 lines we have sailed.

Edited March 17, 2014 by wallie5446