Bystander CPR on the Island Princess

[sunshine426]

EMT's deserve all the credit they get. Would love to have someone with that skill join me.

[lone_stranger]

I'm guessing 65 fleet wide, not per ship. Sorry for the pun but 65/ship would be a little "over kill"!

 

 

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I was guessing the same, but hoping for a different answer. When a heart stops beating every second counts. I guess that haphazard communications, long response times, minimal availability of emergency medical equipment are some of the downsides of cruising. It isn't all fun and games and we should all be aware of that.

 

My hat is off to sunshine because that is a stressful procedure at the best of times with all of the assistance of a crack medical team. It is more so under the conditions that she described. She gets an enormous 'atta girl' from this cruiser.

[Ethel5]

I am so sorry for a confusing post. Missing my room service coffee this morning. I meant to say that I had no doubt that she was well cared for. We checked what Princess offers as far as emergent care prior to this cruise and felt very comfortable traveling, even with some health concerns of our own

 

I am open to suggestions as to who I should write at Princess?

 

Thank you for clearing that up. I was impressed with the medical center when I did the UST. Most of the crew there is from GB. All the nurses are ACLS certified.

 

I, too, add my thanks for all you did. Good for you having those shots-kills all the germs! Seriously, you should be comped in some way.

Edited May 6, 2014 by Ethel5

[Coral]

I'm guessing 65 fleet wide, not per ship. Sorry for the pun but 65/ship would be a little "over kill"!

 

 

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This PR was written in 1999. I have no doubt these models have been retired and there are new models and probably more AEDs per ship than allocated in 1999 as the cost of these have come down considerably.

[suzyed]

Now I know why my husband, a "former" EMT, gets a fare discount on some cruise lines! (Including Princess, I believe!)

 

Unfortunately RN's don't get the same discount!:p:(

[suzyed]

Two friends of ours were cruising a few years back (not on Princess that time) and at one point met a guy that they wanted to have dinner with. They were told that they couldn't all fit at their regular assigned table, but they had another table in the dining room that they could all fit at.

Long story short...one of our friends had a sudden cardiac arrest during dinner. As luck would have it, they had been seated at a table with a nurse and an EMT!!! Thank God!! They performed CPR and saved his life! The Coast Guard came and took him off the ship and to Key West, where he was airlifted to a hospital in Miami.

After hearing the OP's story, I believe that if he hadn't been seated at that table he probably wouldn't have survived!!

[hockeygal54]

I think PCL needs to consider offering OBC for anyone able (or who wishes to participate) to produce a current BCLS card and higher OBC for someone willing to produce an ACLS card. Obviously their standards of employee emergency care is way sub standard and if they are going to rely on passengers to step up to the plate and save their aging population with obvious health concerns then they need to pony up a few drinks etc on the house!

 

 

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[automagrt]

I think PCL needs to consider offering OBC for anyone able (or who wishes to participate) to produce a current BCLS card and higher OBC for someone willing to produce an ACLS card. Obviously their standards of employee emergency care is way sub standard and if they are going to rely on passengers to step up to the plate and save their aging population with obvious health concerns then they need to pony up a few drinks etc on the house!

 

 

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Again, from the passage contract:

12. HEALTH, MEDICAL CARE AND OTHER PERSONAL SERVICES.

Due to the nature of travel by sea and the ports visited, the availability of medical care may be limited or delayed and emergency medical evacuation may not be possible from every location to which the ship sails. All health, medical or other personal services in connection with Your Cruise are provided solely for the convenience and benefit of Passengers who may be charged for such services. You accept and use medicine, medical treatment and other personal services available on the ship or elsewhere at Your sole risk and expense without liability or responsibility of Carrier whatsoever, and agree to indemnify the Carrier for all medical or evacuation costs or expenses incurred on Your behalf. Doctors, nurses or other medical or service personnel work directly for Passenger and shall not be considered to be acting under the control or supervision of Carrier, since Carrier is not a medical provider. Similarly, and without limitation, all spa personnel, photographers, instructors, guest lecturers and entertainers and other service personnel shall be considered independent contractors who work directly for the Passenger.

[sunshine426]

Certainly the passenger contract is very detailed. Truly do not think most on this thread are questioning the care in the medical gallery but the lack of intervention at the time of incident. The contract might save against law suits, but basic first responder can save lives....

[Ethel5]

I been doing searches on how many AEDs are required on cruise ships with no results. The closest info was that HAL was installing 3 AEDs on each of their ships. That was back in 2002.

[Loonbeam]

Not going to happen. Offering OBC in return for someone becoming a standby care provider would make them defacto employees of the cruiseline and thus covered under them for liability.

 

I think PCL needs to consider offering OBC for anyone able (or who wishes to participate) to produce a current BCLS card and higher OBC for someone willing to produce an ACLS card. Obviously their standards of employee emergency care is way sub standard and if they are going to rely on passengers to step up to the plate and save their aging population with obvious health concerns then they need to pony up a few drinks etc on the house!

 

 

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[Coral]

I been doing searches on how many AEDs are required on cruise ships with no results. The closest info was that HAL was installing 3 AEDs on each of their ships. That was back in 2002.

 

My guess is they are not required on any ships.

[piper28]

I don't have any photos, but I'm pretty sure I remember seeing signs for AED's on deck 7 on the grand+ class ships. Part of me wants to say that it was kinda like the restroom signs on that deck, the little angular lighted signs that stick out a little. That said, I remember thinking that they were definitely not very obvious, and the AED itself wasn't in plain site, but hidden behind a panel or something. I think I'd been thinking of them shortly before that trip because the topic had come up at my RC club (we have a lot of elderly people in the club, and we joke from time to time that one of these days someone is going to go wander off looking for an airplane in the cornfield and never come back). I kinda want to say one of the signs I saw for one was somewhere near one end or the other of the photo department.

[chengkp75]

This is inaccurate, every crewmember is required to have a first aid certificate which includes CPR. This is kept up to date and they are required to have these cert when they arrive onboard.

 

While it is true that all crew members must have a valid STCW 95 certificate, which shows that they have received training in elementary first aid and CPR (as with most things, USCG requirements go above IMO, so I'm not entirely sure that while all US crew receive CPR training, whether international crew do as well), this certificate is only issued/renewed every 5 years, and this is the only training required, and in most cases, the only training received. There is no refresher training required during that 5 year interval. Most crew are from cultures different from the US, and are not trained or culturally imbued with the reflex to aid in an emergency as US citizens tend to be. For this reason, most cruise lines will train their crew not to intervene, and to wait for medical to respond. Having said that, an 18 minute wait for medical to respond is not normal, and not acceptable.

Edited May 8, 2014 by chengkp75

[chengkp75]

Why would any Princess employees not help someone they saw and could help struggling for life? Is it because they would/could loose employment?

I just do not see how some people can ingore another that needs help.

 

Under the 2000 Federal Cardiac Arrest Survival Act, Congress gave immunity from civil damages to people administering CPR or an automatic external defibrillator, with exceptions in cases of gross negligence or willful misconduct. All states have Good Samaritan laws that grant some immunity protection for those performing CPR and an AED (again with restrictions) but they vary. I would like to know somebody helped my loved one--atleast they made an attempt.

 

This event has made me more aware and I will go back for a refresher CPR course. I want to be able to help if necessaary.

 

But what you are quoting are US laws, which don't apply to foreign flag ships when they are in foreign ports or outside of any country's territorial waters.

[chengkp75]

I doubt they are covered by this US Act/Protection.

 

For example - a lawsuit had to be brought to the Supreme Court to make ships that go to US ports to follow ADA regulations.

 

It is not a given that all US laws cover cruise ships, especially at sea.

 

Absolutely correct. And the only reason the foreign flag ships were required to meet the ADA is that they are considered to be "offering accommodation" (i.e. your cabin) while in a US port.

[chengkp75]

I don't have any photos, but I'm pretty sure I remember seeing signs for AED's on deck 7 on the grand+ class ships. Part of me wants to say that it was kinda like the restroom signs on that deck, the little angular lighted signs that stick out a little. That said, I remember thinking that they were definitely not very obvious, and the AED itself wasn't in plain site, but hidden behind a panel or something. I think I'd been thinking of them shortly before that trip because the topic had come up at my RC club (we have a lot of elderly people in the club, and we joke from time to time that one of these days someone is going to go wander off looking for an airplane in the cornfield and never come back). I kinda want to say one of the signs I saw for one was somewhere near one end or the other of the photo department.

 

Those ships that have AED's tend to place them in crew areas to prevent tampering.

[thyme2go]

Good luck to all of us who cruise and are willing to respond to someone's needs.........Princess are you listening? Our next cruise will be less delightful due to this newfound knowledge. :eek: Having AED's in mysterious places........and no one able to use them? Is this the 21st century on these ships? I guess not.

[Colo Cruiser]

While it is true that all crew members must have a valid STCW 95 certificate, which shows that they have received training in elementary first aid and CPR (as with most things, USCG requirements go above IMO, so I'm not entirely sure that while all US crew receive CPR training, whether international crew do as well), this certificate is only issued/renewed every 5 years, and this is the only training required, and in most cases, the only training received. There is no refresher training required during that 5 year interval. Most crew are from cultures different from the US, and are not trained or culturally imbued with the reflex to aid in an emergency as US citizens tend to be. For this reason, most cruise lines will train their crew not to intervene, and to wait for medical to respond. Having said that, an 18 minute wait for medical to respond is not normal, and not acceptable.

 

 

Thanks for providing the info, yes they are required to adhere to STCW, and yes you are correct there is no refresher within the 5 year time frame (IMO).

 

Below is part of the changes that took place for STCW 95,

 

 

"The Amendments require that seafarers be provided with "familiarization training" and "basic safety training" which includes basic fire fighting, elementary first aid, personal survival techniques, and personal safety and social responsibility. This training is intended to ensure that seafarers are aware of the hazards of working on a vessel and can respond appropriately in an emergency".

 

 

Princess has their protocols as far as responding to these emergencies so as far as the crew stepping in I would also agree with your thoughts on that as well.

[chengkp75]

Good luck to all of us who cruise and are willing to respond to someone's needs.........Princess are you listening? Our next cruise will be less delightful due to this newfound knowledge. :eek: Having AED's in mysterious places........and no one able to use them? Is this the 21st century on these ships? I guess not.

 

It may be the 21st century on the ships, but it is not the US. The cruise lines use the flags of convenience for a very large reason: dollars. And don't think it is limited to Princess, it is all ships of all lines.

Edited May 8, 2014 by chengkp75

[hockeygal54]

I read an article last nite that was actually published by Zoll which is a medical device company and it was in ref to AED on cruise ships, specifically RCCL Oasis. This ship holds over 6000 pax PLUS crew and they were quoted as having 5 or 6 on that ship. Disney Resorts had purchase several hundred but that was for all parks, hotels and DCL. They were not specific about how many were on the ships.

 

As for the Good Samaritan thing and that other cited policy, those ARE US A policies and not in effect in foreign areas or waters. I'd think twice before getting involved in any cruise ship emergency, just for my own protection.....on several levels. The minimum standard should be to @ least have barrier shields @ every public area. I'd do mouth to snout on my cat before I'd do mouth to mouth on a perfect stranger. Call me callous, so be it. I've seen too much Hepatitis of all varieties, HIV, Shigella, Noro, H1N1 and things I can't even recall or spell so that just won't be happening out in "the field"!

 

 

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[thyme2go]

It may be the 21st century on the ships, but it is not the US. The cruise lines use the flags of convenience for a very large reason: dollars. And don't think it is limited to Princess, it is all ships of all lines.

 

What appalls me is the lack of a moral compass by Princess on this issue. Yes I know what they are legally required to do, but if it has to come down to making laws for Princess do the right thing then there is something very wrong with this company! If someone is in distress and no employee can 'help' other than picking up a phone then it's time for me to change a few travel plans. I don't blame the employee's.......I hold Princess accountable for this behavior---Princess could just as easily put in the passenger contract that no Princess employee can be held responsible for damages when rendering aid to cruisers in emergencies. CYA....and try to be helpful!

[automagrt]

What appalls me is the lack of a moral compass by Princess on this issue. Yes I know what they are legally required to do, but if it has to come down to making laws for Princess do the right thing then there is something very wrong with this company! If someone is in distress and no employee can 'help' other than picking up a phone then it's time for me to change a few travel plans. I don't blame the employee's.......I hold Princess accountable for this behavior---Princess could just as easily put in the passenger contract that no Princess employee can be held responsible for damages when rendering aid to cruisers in emergencies. CYA....and try to be helpful!

 

It's not just Princess. The California Supreme Court is about to decide whether Target was liable for not having an AED in their store when a customer died of sudden cardiac arrest. Target argues that their only responsibility was to dial 911.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/california-top-court-decide-defibrillator-issue-23604432

[hockeygal54]

Ten yrs ago come July my older dd and I were on the "Texarribean" cruise out of old port of Houston. She was 16 @ the time and I had given her the "I'm a secretary this week" speech since she had prev gotten me involved in a crisis on a catamaran when I'd had a few beers. It IS after all MY vacation but I'm not getting involved in medical clusters in these circumstances! Nothing like setting myself up for liability when I've had alcohol. These kids kept running around the pool, no parents in site, and I remarked to my dd that someone was going to fall and get hurt. Shortly after that remark, a girl about 13 came running around the decking, slipped and fell HARD a few feet from us. I looked @ my dd and said "secretary!!" Of course there were plenty of wanna be paramedics who jumped in to help. Nobody had ascertained her neuro status, stabilized her neck etc. It seemed like forever but finally "medical" came with a WC and made her get up and into the WC! Now I've never worked ER except to help out with triage and my normal focus is cardiac surgery ICU but I DO know enough about accidents and first aid to know that you always assess neuro status and stabilize a victims neck. All these "good Samaritans" could've unknowingly caused this girl permanent paralysis as could have the "medical" people but better THEY be sued by her absent parents. This whole incident took close to 30" to dissolve and the parents never were located in that period of time. Scary IMO.

 

 

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[Coral]

Those ships that have AED's tend to place them in crew areas to prevent tampering.

 

This may be true on their thought process but I think it is sad IMO.

 

As stated earlier, I work on a college campus and we had AEDs prominently put in logical areas in each building on our campus. They have probably been there for 7 years or so. I asked our nurse if they have ever had tampering problems and she said not once. We want them to be in logical areas so that if anyone needs to use it, they are available. It may be used by a guest/visitor attending a basketball game and not someone who is a regular on our campus but if they see someone who needs it, we want them to have access to it.

 

It is sort of like saying "we hide our fire extinguishers as we don't want people to play with them".

 

If that is truly the mentality, they will lose more people then what the minor (if that) inconvenience of tampering has. They should probably set what their priorities are.

 

The scary thing about AEDs is that there was a big push to put these everyone several years ago. I did read an article last year that many of them are not being maintained (replace batteries, etc...) and this is a huge issue. A business can't just put these out and forget about them - someone needs to check them periodically (I think monthly is what the article said).