Concerns I have about decisions made on Pride.

[Baymax]

I don't know if it will make you feel any better but I was on one of those NCL ships at Belize (NCL Sun) and watched y'all sail off while scratching my head wondering why. It did take an extraordinary legnth of time for people to disembark (2+ hours to get the NCL tour groups off and then another 2+ hours to get passengers without NCL tours off). People were so late getting off the ship that about 30 minutes after we set sail to leave, the ship slowed and let 4 boatloads of people pull along side to get back on board, in the dark! :eek: The next day in Costa Maya we shared a taxi with a couple from the Sunshine (who also left with y'all) and she claimed their captain told them that all 4 ships were leaving due to the weather. She got right mad when I told her we did not leave.

 

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

[Out to sea!]

Is it possible that the wind picked up after the NCL ships docked and they made it in port before the wind?

 

No, the wind was fairly constant the whole day. The NCL Sun didn't start unloading until after the Carnival ships started leaving port.

[Earl Colby Pottinger]

For all of you who keep saying the decision was the right one, would you say that the choice to tender to the port by the Norwegian Captain was the wrong one? You can bash me all you want, but there were 4 captains facing the same conditions, and 2 did choose to stay. Were they wrong? If safety and ensuring there are never any issues or injuries occur, they could just stay tied to the dock and act as a hotel I guess.

 

The problem with that is aside from the fact that different captains will have different thresholds about what they consider too dangerous, what where the tender boats like for their ships, what is the entrance to the ships like and were there any ramps or stairs involved?

 

I have tendered with boats the size of the life boats, and I have tended on boats so big they have two decks. I have tended once where you step straight from the tender to ship (and that was scary), I have tendered when you walk on a ramp with railings (felt a lot safer) and once on that double decked boat they even had a stairs to walk on and off the boat (mind you that was at a company owned island).

 

There are many reasons to stay or to go.

[BND]

I don't know if it will make you feel any better but I was on one of those NCL ships at Belize (NCL Sun) and watched y'all sail off while scratching my head wondering why. It did take an extraordinary legnth of time for people to disembark (2+ hours to get the NCL tour groups off and then another 2+ hours to get passengers without NCL tours off). People were so late getting off the ship that about 30 minutes after we set sail to leave, the ship slowed and let 4 boatloads of people pull along side to get back on board, in the dark! :eek: The next day in Costa Maya we shared a taxi with a couple from the Sunshine (who also left with y'all) and she claimed their captain told them that all 4 ships were leaving due to the weather. She got right mad when I told her we did not leave.

 

Sounds like weather conditions made getting people on and off difficult with the result being it taking so long.

[sparks1093]

I don't know if it will make you feel any better but I was on one of those NCL ships at Belize (NCL Sun) and watched y'all sail off while scratching my head wondering why. It did take an extraordinary legnth of time for people to disembark (2+ hours to get the NCL tour groups off and then another 2+ hours to get passengers without NCL tours off). People were so late getting off the ship that about 30 minutes after we set sail to leave, the ship slowed and let 4 boatloads of people pull along side to get back on board, in the dark! :eek: The next day in Costa Maya we shared a taxi with a couple from the Sunshine (who also left with y'all) and she claimed their captain told them that all 4 ships were leaving due to the weather. She got right mad when I told her we did not leave.

 

If it took that long to unload 1 ship with 2 ships in port just imagine how long it would have taken to unload 4 ships. I am sure that was a factor also.

[Out to sea!]

Sounds like weather conditions made getting people on and off difficult with the result being it taking so long.

 

I have to say, the waves didn't look that bad............from deck 11. :D

[virginiab]

It's been a long time since I sailed NCL. Are they one of the lines that uses their own lifeboats as tenders?

 

Ships that use local tenders have to deal with their contracted tender operators also making decisions about whether to risk tendering. And lots of us have been on enough tenders to see that they vary greatly!

 

I've tendered a couple of times in Belize, and stayed on ship in Belize a couple other times as that is a long tender ride to be bouncing around if the seas are frisky. I seldom get seasick on a cruise ship but tenders and ferries are another issue for me! So I wouldn't have gotten off that ship on that day once I saw the first few tenders bouncing their way toward shore.

 

In Belize I've watch tenders in rough waters have to circle around a couple of times before successfully meeting up with the ship to take on or let off passengers.

[LSEA]

 

Even though I'm certain sea conditions were known, we did temporarily anchor in Belize only to soon leave. If conditions were bad, I can't imagine why we pulled in and anchored. To make matters worse, there were 2 other NCL ships also in port. It was sad to have an aft cabin and watch us leave based on what the captain described as rough seas for using tenders yet the NCL ships clearly felt differently. I watched the ships in pretty sunny weather as we left, and later talked with passengers on the NCL Dawn the next day. They remarked how the day turned out sunny and nice, and how they enjoyed. Belize. Although I'm not the biggest fan of the NCL experience, I do recognize they have a stellar safety record and feel they made the right call that day.

 

I feel a much better choice would have been for the captain to inform the passengers that they would likely have a rough ride using the tenders and left the choice up to the passengers. Instead we headed south where it was clear that the next 48 hours would have far worse weather. This was known to me, so it certainly was known to the officers of the Pride. I will also add that I was part of a navigation crew aboard a submarine for 10 years, and feel very well versed in this area.

 

 

 

OK, so the Captain gives you the choice about a rough tender ride into Belize. You decide to go for it. Fast forward to the end of your experience and you are ready to return on the tender to the ship. But wait... conditions have gotten worse and they are not able to run return tenders to the ship. How long would you have been content "hanging out" at the port?

[Out to sea!]

It's been a long time since I sailed NCL. Are they one of the lines that uses their own lifeboats as tenders?

 

Ships that use local tenders have to deal with their contracted tender operators also making decisions about whether to risk tendering. And lots of us have been on enough tenders to see that they vary greatly!

 

I've tendered a couple of times in Belize, and stayed on ship in Belize a couple other times as that is a long tender ride to be bouncing around if the seas are frisky. I seldom get seasick on a cruise ship but tenders and ferries are another issue for me! So I wouldn't have gotten off that ship on that day once I saw the first few tenders bouncing their way toward shore.

 

In Belize I've watch tenders in rough waters have to circle around a couple of times before successfully meeting up with the ship to take on or let off passengers.

 

Belize has been the only tendered port I have visited on NCL but in this case they used the ports large tenders while in port.

[Tapi]

For all of you who keep saying the decision was the right one, would you say that the choice to tender to the port by the Norwegian Captain was the wrong one? You can bash me all you want, but there were 4 captains facing the same conditions, and 2 did choose to stay. Were they wrong?

 

 

To give a semi-educated answer to your question, we would need to know a few more things:

 

- Are the design limitations for the Carnival Pride the same as the ones for the NCL ships? That they are all cruise ships, doesn't mean that all can safely tender ashore in the same weather conditions.

 

- Are NCL and Carnival's rules concerning tendering in adverse weather the same? Carnival may have more restrictive rules which could've prevented the Pride's Captain from tendering, even if he wanted to do so.

 

- Were the weather conditions identical at the time of the Pride's arrivals as when the NCL ships arrived? It's not uncommon for one ship to make it in and the next one not make it a few minutes later, specially if the conditions were hovering right at its max limit.

 

- Were both cruise lines using the same company to tender people ashore? The decision to cancel the tendering process may have come from a third party, in which case Carnival would've had no choice but to leave, while NCL could've still been able to tender.

 

Even if circumstances had been identical, there's one HUGE factor: Captain's comfort level. If the Captain doesn't feel its safe, it's not safe. Is he a wimpy Captain, or are the Captain of the other ships daredevils? The answer is neither one. As long as the Captain has a good reason to err on the side of safety, he can play it conservatively. And as long as he's not violating any rules and regulations, he can push the operation to its authorized limit, but never beyond it. Captain's have some wiggle room to make decisions because, even if the rules say they can do something, their gut instinct and years of experience may tell them otherwise.

 

That's why he gets paid a Captain's salary, to make Captain's decisions and to keep you safe to the best of his personal abilities while you're spending your time sipping on your drink of the day and listening to the music band, not second guessing his decisions and trying to play armchair Captain.

 

 

 

 

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Edited December 8, 2014 by Tapi

[cruiser fanatic]

I am sorry you were disappointed. However, you should be thankful of the fact that the Captain put your safety and well being first. I don't think they skip ports to make money, remember they have to refund excursions, port fees, cook extra meals etc.. I also don't think you were missing much by skipping Belize IMO.

[momof4boys]

Once, in July 2006, as we came into Grand Cayman, there were terrible weather conditions....lots of lightening, heavy rain, and high waves.

 

The captain of the Conquest came on and said that we would be slowly moving around in the immediate area as he expected the ocean and weather conditions to improve within the hour. Surprisingly, the sun came out and the seas calmed within the hour. Tendering began only an hour late. We ended up having a lovely day at Stingray City.

 

The next day when we were sitting at Paradise Beach in Cozumel, some passengers from NCL and RCCL overheard us talking about our excursion. They became furious because their ship's captain decided to not wait it out. Both ships sailed on to Cozumel and circled out in the ocean until they could disembark the next morning.

 

This can happen on any ship. As a passenger, I have to trust the captain.

[Cruise Envy]

I was told by one of the CD's staff on the Pride that day that NCL was unable to return that tender to the ship so 40 people got left in Belize. The sunshine chose not to tender either.

 

 

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[CTI1WLM]

To give a semi-educated answer to your question, we would need to know a few more things:

 

- Are the design limitations for the Carnival Pride the same as the ones for the NCL ships? That they are all cruise ships, doesn't mean that all can safely tender ashore in the same weather conditions.

 

- Are NCL and Carnival's rules concerning tendering in adverse weather the same? Carnival may have more restrictive rules which could've prevented the Pride's Captain from tendering, even if he wanted to do so.

 

- Were the weather conditions identical at the time of the Pride's arrivals as when the NCL ships arrived? It's not uncommon for one ship to make it in and the next one not make it a few minutes later, specially if the conditions were hovering right at its max limit.

 

- Were both cruise lines using the same company to tender people ashore? The decision to cancel the tendering process may have come from a third party, in which case Carnival would've had no choice but to leave, while NCL could've still been able to tender.

 

Even if circumstances had been identical, there's one HUGE factor: Captain's comfort level. If the Captain doesn't feel its safe, it's not safe. Is he a wimpy Captain, or are the Captain of the other ships daredevils? The answer is neither one. As long as the Captain has a good reason to err on the side of safety, he can play it conservatively. And as long as he's not violating any rules and regulations, he can push the operation to its authorized limit, but never beyond it. Captain's have some wiggle room to make decisions because, even if the rules say they can do something, their gut instinct and years of experience may tell them otherwise.

 

That's why he gets paid a Captain's salary, to make Captain's decisions and to keep you safe to the best of his personal abilities while you're spending your time sipping on your drink of the day and listening to the music band, not second guessing his decisions and trying to play armchair Captain.

 

 

 

 

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what about the differences in the physical systems of the various ships?

 

Consider the following HYPOTHETICAL situation: if the NCL ship's propulsion system is operating at 100% efficiency, then the decision made by that captain is different than the decision made by a different captain who has a propulsion system operating at 94% efficiency; etc.

 

I think you get the point.

 

Your anecdotal analysis of the current weather conditions might well have been as valid as any ship's officers', but I cannot help but believe that they have much more data [e.g., long-range weather analyses, reports from various ship departments, etc.] that makes their decision superior to yours, or mine.

[AZbeachboy]

For those of you who miss going ashore at Grand Cayman we have been on four cruises, three different lines that stopped in Grand Cayman. We have always been able to go ashore. The problem is that after the first time, the only reason to go was to buy rum cakes. It really has no value for me. Snorkling has always been better in other places. Hell is a joke.

Seven Mile beach is ok but it has been cloudy most of the time we were there.

 

But it seems that most lines and cruises must stop there.

[PaulMedik]

....... I will also add that I was part of a navigation crew aboard a submarine for 10 years, and feel very well versed in this area.

 

...........

 

 

mg33626,

 

 

You spend ten years completely OUT of the weather and feel that makes you very well versed? :rolleyes: Granted I am not a submariner, but other than ocean currents, what weather events are relevant to those on board submarines?

[Tapi]

what about the differences in the physical systems of the various ships?

 

 

I cannot help but believe that they have much more data...that makes their decision superior to yours, or mine.

 

 

That's exactly my point. The general public usually has a fraction of the facts, and an even smaller fraction of the expertise and knowledge to determine whether the Captain's decision was the right one. Unless the Captain makes an obvious and truly gross mistake (a la Costa Concordia), it's truly absurd to come here and a) point out how the Captain's actions were wrong and b) tell him how things should've been done.

 

 

 

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Edited December 8, 2014 by Tapi

[10Jan54]

On one of our cruises we did stop in Belize when it was very rough seas. After about an hour and a half watching the tenders having many problems loading guest, Belize themselves cancelled the tenders. It might have been about 2 hours when they decided to try again. We managed to get ashore before they cancelled them again. The weather was great on shore but not at sea. Getting us all back on was questionable for awhile but after a slow process they were successful. Thanks for those extra drinks we were able to down before loading it eased some of the fear for many.:D

[MrMileStoner]

The Captain is responsible for safety of the ship, passengers, and crew. The Captain is not responsible for what the Captains of other ships choose to do. The same is true for the tender operators.

 

The Port authorities can also decide when the port is open or closed.

 

Conspiracy theorists and rumorists are not limited to crew!

[loubetti]

I'm not a master mariner, but I am an experienced aviator, and in both situations judgement is essential. While a bit of an apples / oranges comparison, in 1988 Delta Air Lines flight 191 was landing at DFW in thunderstorm conditions. All the preceding flights were making it in and so was 191, until they experienced something we did not know much about, WIND SHEAR.

 

The Lockheed L-1011, despite best efforts of the pilots was slammed into the ground resulting in 137 deaths, including a man in his Toyota that was crushed when the aircraft came down on him.

 

Granted, airplanes are not ships, but we deal with similar weather conditions, rain, wind, etc.

 

The fact that one ship or tender gets in, does not mean the next one will.

 

Forget about Costa Concordia, these captains have a massive amount of responsibility on them, and when they decide to miss a port it is not due to making money, it is due to safety.

[Tapi]

All the preceding flights were making it in and so was 191, until they experienced something we did not know much about, WIND SHEAR.

 

 

 

The Lockheed L-1011, despite best efforts of the pilots was slammed into the ground resulting in 137 deaths...

 

 

Flt. 191 is exactly the crash that I was thinking about when I read the OP's comment about other ships making it in, so why not his.

 

 

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[BallFour4]

Cruise lines need two things, happy passengers and revenue. They make money from shore excursions, spa treatments, alcohol, gambling and other debauchery from us. Missing a port cost them big dollars.

 

Missing a port also causes upset passengers, like you. I'd be dissapointed too, but not upset. It's a positive press market, Carnival and their competitors thrive on you and I being happy.

 

You made it back to port without a tug being involved. Celebrate!

 

 

.

Edited December 8, 2014 by BallFour4

[Baymax]

You made it back to port without a tug being involved. Celebrate!

 

That's what it comes to nowadays?

 

Curious. Very curious.

[jetta8300]

This may be a stupid thing to say based on the fact that I have little to no knowledge about maneuvering a ship... But a contributing factor could be that this particular captain has been on the Pride for a very long time, and those ports are not the ports the Pride usually stops at. He may not have been as comfortable tendering there as another captain who had been cruising that itinerary regularly...???

 

 

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[travelbumsboston]

Hubby, 8 year old grandson and I were on the Pride for the Thanksgiving cruise. We have been to these exact same ports for the last 5 years on the Legend at the same time of year. First of all had a great time and loved all the additions to the Pride. Would go on the Pride again in a second. Prior to leaving we checked the weather before leaving and knew we were going to have crappy weather and there was going to be strong chances of missing ports. Since we have been to these ports before we had planned on not doing any excursions this time out and just hit the ports for shopping. When we got to Belize we watched the tender boats rock and roll out in the ocean around NCL and thought, thank goodness we decided not to go ashore. Even in the best weather those tenders can jump around. We totally understood why we were going to head out, it appeared obvious to us. If memory serves it rained pretty good in Roatan the day in port and pretty windy. Didn't leave port until shortly after 6:00 p.m. and boy was it rocky and rolling. After 5 cruises under our grandson's belt he got seasick. Rough seas lasted until about 10:30 p.m. and seemed to subside. Husband and I assumed that Grand Cayman was not going to happen and the night before they cancelled the port and put Costa Maya. Hubby and I had been there before, granted no great shakes in this port but again figured we do some shopping. Hubby and I totally agree with decision not to tender at Belize and Grand Cayman, but totally understand those who were disappointed. I can tell you a lot of work was done by the employees to make the cruise enjoyable for the time lost at the ports. A lot of these employees had just got to bed at 5:00 am only to be called back to work. They know it can happen and just go with the flow spoke to many of them whether kitchen/wait staff, bar tenders, and officers. Just another damned if you do and damned if you don't situation.