Casino courtesy

[mferranti]

[quote name='DYKWIA']Hmmmm, out of everyone I've spoken to I'm the only one who has ever left a Casino / Vegas down. Everyone else, invariably, is always "about even" or "slightly up" :D[/QUOTE]It's amazing how those places stay in business, isn't it? ;)

[waterbug123]

[quote name='DYKWIA']Hmmmm, out of everyone I've spoken to I'm the only one who has ever left a Casino / Vegas down. Everyone else, invariably, is always "about even" or "slightly up" :D[/quote]

Yup. I laugh when I read posts from people who claim that they "always win."

[Melissa at Mohair Meadows]

You're really going to hate this - but if I were at a table and had lost 10 hands by following the book, I would probably leave the table too. Before reaching that point, I would have deviated from the 'book' and done something 'bad' to shake things up. The shoe obviously is not realizing that I should be winning by playing by the book. :eek:

[tgmtgm]

[quote name='chrismakris']To give you an example of how bad play can effect the table, I was at a casino in Vegas one night and sat down at $10 minimum table where everyone was playing by the book. Two hands in(after winning one hand and losing another), a gentleman sits down and proceeds to play against the book. First hand, he proceeds to split his 20 when the dealer shows a bust card. Worked out well for him because he drew two more tens. Unfortunately for the rest of the table the dealer made 19 and everyone else lost. Had he stayed with his original 20 the dealer would have busted. He continued to play that way and my $100 investment was gone in 11 hands(10 losses and 1 push). Me and the other 4 players got up and immediately left the table. The way he played cost the 5 of us approximately $1000 in less than 10 minutes.

Not playing by the book does affect the outcome and fortunes of all involved. I find that most people that play the "wrong way" are out on the night having a good time and wanna part with their money quickly and the casinos love this kind of player.

I have seen many times when a player plays "poorly" that they do win money to start but the odds eventually do catch up with them and they leave the table with less money than what they started with. I can say that I've been on the good side of the ledger when someone plays against the book, but I mostly end up losing money.

The house always has the edge when it comes to any casino game, so when someone sits down at the table and plays against the book, they are essentially increasing the casinos edge.[/QUOTE]


Excellent example of how poor/uninformed play affects the entire table. I refuse to remain seated in a situation like that. I politely excuse myself and go gamble elsewhere. At the same time, I would never admonish the offending player- not my place to do so.


Tony

[ghstudio]

[quote name='tgmtgm']Excellent example of how poor/uninformed play affects the entire table. I refuse to remain seated in a situation like that. I politely excuse myself and go gamble elsewhere. At the same time, I would never admonish the offending player- not my place to do so.


Tony[/QUOTE]

Actually, it's just an example of what's called "bad luck"....being blamed on someone else. I always know that I would win the lottery if the guy in front of me didn't buy his ticket....it's his fault.

[AugustW]

Just felt like adding my two cents. Forgive my comments as they are not meant to offend.

To the original point of courtesy, the OP is right to be offended. The other player had no right to reprimand you. If they don't like your play then they are free to walk away. It is not their business to tell you how you should spend your money period. You are on vacation and it is understood that you have every right to play as you wish.

Next was it the right play? Unless you are counting cards* it most definitely was not. Blackjack on a cruise ship favors the house to win $.60 for every $100 bet with best strategy. When you make mistakes like hitting on a 14 against a 6 you increase the house edge to $5.00-$10.00 per $100 bet depending on the rest of his/her play unless you are counting cards*. So can you still win from time to time, absolutely but not over time.

Does it effect the others at the table? Yes and no. While it does effect the rest of the shoe you never know if it is for better or worse. Even if you are counting cards you don't know over time of it will be positive or negative effect.

*Counting cards changes those odds. counting cards is not a great mystery and there are several ways to do it. All it is is keeping track of how many tens and aces are remaining in the deck as a percentage of total cards by counting what has been played. If the deck is rich in tens you should never hit a 14 against a 6 because the odds are much greater that whomever takes a card will bust. However the opposite applies if the deck is poor in tens and it is safer to hit a 14 and a 6 is a more dangerous card for the dealer to have. I could go int a dissertation on how you should increase you bets when a deck rich in tens but it is off the point. I just want to clarify when hitting on 14 against a 6 is not financial suicide.

I digress. The simple point is we all go on a cruise to go on vacation and getaway. Lighten up and if you don't like how someone plays a community game get up and walk away and let them enjoy themselves how they seem fit. Unless your their parent or spouse leave the person alone.

Just my two cents,

AW

[DirtyDawg]

[quote name='AugustW']Just felt like adding my two cents. Forgive my comments as they are not meant to offend.

To the original point of courtesy, the OP is right to be offended. The other player had no right to reprimand you. If they don't like your play then they are free to walk away. It is not their business to tell you how you should spend your money period. You are on vacation and it is understood that you have every right to play as you wish.

Next was it the right play? Unless you are counting cards* it most definitely was not. Blackjack on a cruise ship favors the house to win $.60 for every $100 bet with best strategy. When you make mistakes like hitting on a 14 against a 6 you increase the house edge to $5.00-$10.00 per $100 bet depending on the rest of his/her play unless you are counting cards*. So can you still win from time to time, absolutely but not over time.

Does it effect the others at the table? Yes and no. While it does effect the rest of the shoe you never know if it is for better or worse. Even if you are counting cards you don't know over time of it will be positive or negative effect.

*Counting cards changes those odds. counting cards is not a great mystery and there are several ways to do it. All it is is keeping track of how many tens and aces are remaining in the deck as a percentage of total cards by counting what has been played. If the deck is rich in tens you should never hit a 14 against a 6 because the odds are much greater that whomever takes a card will bust. However the opposite applies if the deck is poor in tens and it is safer to hit a 14 and a 6 is a more dangerous card for the dealer to have. I could go int a dissertation on how you should increase you bets when a deck rich in tens but it is off the point. I just want to clarify when hitting on 14 against a 6 is not financial suicide.

I digress. The simple point is we all go on a cruise to go on vacation and getaway. Lighten up and if you don't like how someone plays a community game get up and walk away and let them enjoy themselves how they seem fit. Unless your their parent or spouse leave the person alone.

Just my two cents,

AW[/QUOTE]

AW your advice is worth a heck of a lot more than just 2 cents! 2 ounces of gold sounds about right.

[chrismakris]

[quote name='Melissa at Mohair Meadows']You're really going to hate this - but if I were at a table and had lost 10 hands by following the book, I would probably leave the table too. Before reaching that point, I would have deviated from the 'book' and done something 'bad' to shake things up. The shoe obviously is not realizing that I should be winning by playing by the book. :eek:[/QUOTE]

It not that we lost because we were "following the book", we lost because the other guy was playing so wrong that he would win but cause everyone to lose even though if he had played by the book we all would have won. When 5 guys who don't know each other just sit there dumbfounded at how one guy is playing, we did what was best for us and that was leave.

When I go to a casino I understand that there is a high probability that I will come out of there with less money than I originally had. I would just like to stretch out the losses for more than 12 or 13 hands. :rolleyes:

[ghstudio]

[quote name='chrismakris']It not that we lost because we were "following the book", we lost because the other guy was playing so wrong that he would win but cause everyone to lose even though if he had played by the book we all would have won. When 5 guys who don't know each other just sit there dumbfounded at how one guy is playing, we did what was best for us and that was leave.

[/QUOTE]

You really don't understand.... that other guy didn't effect the odds of your pulling a winning card at all.....he only effected your mental state. You had just as much chance of winning with or without that player.

[photomikey]

Can someone explain to me the reasoning behind ruining the shoe? Is it more of a gut feel or a statistical fact? Does it rely on card counting?

I understand how, if you were counting cards, and for example, the deck were heavy with tens, and you were going to play a certain way because of that... and then the bonehead before you hits when he "should have" stood, and he gets a ten, and now the deck is ever-so-slightly less ten heavy... how that would impact the statistics of the game (very slightly). But that doesn't seem to be the argument being made here.

[DirtyDawg]

This whole thread is really pushing me to go out and either learn how to play blackjack, or invest in a casino. :confused:

I think I'll do the latter, the odds are way better!:p:D

[chrismakris]

There's no real way to ruin a shoe, because we don't know what card is next. Theoretically we play assuming the dealer is always has a 10 face down. When the dealer is showing a bust card(2-6) we play assuming they have 12-16. We believe that the cards are in a certain order and that they need to be played in that way.

We are basically trying to get as much of an edge as we can. Edited April 2, 2015 by chrismakris

[huskerc]

[quote name='photomikey']Can someone explain to me the reasoning behind ruining the shoe?[/QUOTE]
No one will be able to explain this to you because it's nonsense.

[Gonzo70]

[quote name='chrismakris']To give you an example of how bad play can effect the table, I was at a casino in Vegas one night and sat down at $10 minimum table where everyone was playing by the book. Two hands in(after winning one hand and losing another), a gentleman sits down and proceeds to play against the book. First hand, he proceeds to split his 20 when the dealer shows a bust card. Worked out well for him because he drew two more tens. Unfortunately for the rest of the table the dealer made 19 and everyone else lost. Had he stayed with his original 20 the dealer would have busted. He continued to play that way and my $100 investment was gone in 11 hands(10 losses and 1 push). Me and the other 4 players got up and immediately left the table. The way he played cost the 5 of us approximately $1000 in less than 10 minutes.

[/quote]

LOL, it is no longer April Fools day and still some are making foolish posts. The person you described was just as likely to HELP you and others "playing the odds" as he was to hurt you. As several people have pointed out to you (and a few other misinformed people on this thread), the skill level of other people at your table have ZERO impact on your own personal chances of winning versus losing. If you sat at a table filled with people playing 100% against the odds you would have the same exact chance of winning versus losing as if you sat at a table filled with people playing 100% with the odds. Leaving a table or being irritated because someone is not playing the odds just shows that you are clueless and do not understand Blackjack or basic math.

[SupremeFlounder]

[quote name='Gonzo70'] ... Leaving a table or being irritated because someone is not playing the odds just shows that you are clueless and do not understand Blackjack or basic math.[/QUOTE]

To be fair, probabilities and what-not aren't exactly "basic" math but I think these comments are spot on.

With that said, a lot of folks don't seem to understand the implications of randomness. Or when the randomness works out for them, attribute the result to skill.

It's not altogether unreasonable in that the conventional wisdom talks very consistently about Blackjack / 21 being a game of skill (unlike say, craps or roulette) -- but there's certainly less 'skill' involved than poker where the cards dealt are almost (almost) not the most important part of the game.

Really enjoying the thread - it honestly never occured to me that one's play at *any* casino game would be subject to more than a friendly, "You know, it might be a better bet to consider standing on a hand like that." At that point, the misguided can either reference their special feeling that made it the right call or learn something useful in a friendly way.

It's so hard for me to imagine that such serious big money gambling is happening on a cruise ship.

[photomikey]

[quote name='chrismakris']We believe that the cards are in a certain order and that they need to be played in that way.

We are basically trying to get as much of an edge as we can.[/QUOTE]
Totally appreciate that you're trying to get an edge.

Wouldn't shuffling the cards disrupt the order of the cards? Can you further explain that?

[AugustW]

Maybe this will help to explain that bad play does not effect your results in the long run.

Taken from [url]www.wizardofodds.com:[/url]

Every time I go to the Blackjack games there is a grumpy simple individual, who wants to stone some poor soul for "messing up the shoe.” Is there any truth to this?

JIM FROM LAS VEGAS

In ten years of running this site I steadfastly denied the myth that bad players cause other players to lose in blackjack. However, you are the lucky 1000th person to ask, so I took the trouble to prove it by random simulation. The rules I put in are the standard liberal Vegas Strip rules as follows.

6 decks
Dealer stands on soft 17
Double on any first two cards allowed
Double after split allowed
Late surrender allowed
Player may re-split to four hands, including aces
Cut card used

First, I had both players follow correct total-dependent basic strategy. Over almost 1.6 billion rounds, the loss of the first player to act was 0.289%, and the second player to act of 0.288%.

Second, I had the first player follow the same correct strategy, and the second player follow the same correct strategy except:

Always hit 12 to 16
Always double 9 to 11
Split any pair
Never surrender
Never soft double

In a simulation of 1.05 billion hands the loss of the first player was 0.282%, and the second player was 11.260%. So the house edge of the basic strategy playing first player was almost the same, regardless of whether the second player played correctly or wildly incorrectly. I hope this puts and end the third baseman myth, but I doubt it. As I have said many times, the more ridiculous a belief is, the more tenaciously it tends to be held.

[tinaperth]

I was a croupier many years ago and you can vary your spin on roulette or shuffle in different ways - all designed to make YOU lose. I have even seen dealers that can take 2 fresh decks and shuffle them thru a cple of times and they are then back in their original order. You can shuffle so the cards are in a block or one, one, one, but today they use machines usually. All odds in all games are in favour of the house anyway. We had no control over you, but we had control over the way we would deal. Some punters know and would pull their bets when they saw an obvious change of spin. Funny even though not our money we also didn't like to lose.

[DYKWIA]

[quote name='SupremeFlounder']To be fair, probabilities and what-not aren't exactly "basic" math but I think these comments are spot on.

.[/QUOTE]

Totally agree, so much deliberately misleading advertising takes place that takes advantage of people's fundamental misunderstanding of probability - even those who think they understand probability often get caught out.

A perfect example of this is the famous Monty Hall problem (sort of gambling related) which has confused people for years.

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monty_Hall_problem[/url]

[gek]

[quote name='DYKWIA']Totally agree, so much deliberately misleading advertising takes place that takes advantage of people's fundamental misunderstanding of probability - even those who think they understand probability often get caught out.

A perfect example of this is the famous Monty Hall problem (sort of gambling related) which has confused people for years.

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monty_Hall_problem[/url][/QUOTE]

Yeah, I love that one. Takes a lot to get your head around it. It's hard enough to convince people that there is no advantage in switching to Red at roulette after Black has come up 10 times in a row.

[Ma Bell]

Even though we understand how things work, many of us just don't enjoy playing as much with people who don't know how to play and don't care. Although the law of averages balances things out, there is no doubt that most people just don't like losing a hand because someone took a card they shouldn't have.

There is no argument that the person who plays badly is going to lose more in the long run. It's nice to give yourself the best chance possible, even though that chance isn't particularly good. In the end, successful gambling is always how you manage your money.