Firearms for the crew

[nukesubsailor]

The only think that can stop a bad person with a gun is a good person with a gun.

[SteveH2508]

The only think that can stop a bad person with a gun is a good person with a gun.

 

Armoured vehicles are rumoured to be quite effective...:D

[Colo Cruiser]

Armoured vehicles are rumoured to be quite effective...:D

 

 

But not on the Promenade Deck. :cool:

[sfaaa]

The only think that can stop a bad person with a gun is a good person with a gun.

 

Especially if the bad guy is trying to ruin someone's cruise vacay. Absolutely unforgivable.

[benchdex]

In most countries around the world, passenger ships carrying any type of firearms are not allowed to enter.

 

But most cruise lines do have very sophisticated and effective (non-firearms) means to repel pirates and other people with bad intentions.

 

 

Absolutely not accurate or true. Yes, there are radiation detectors, but maritime law allows ships to determine what is necessary to protect the crew and passengers. If a particular country would not cooperate, the ship will simply not dock and remain outside the harbor. Many countries do have restrictions on nuclear weapons, but do not define details of ship security provisions. What could be carried on to their sovereign soil is another matter.

Edited June 24, 2015 by benchdex

[sfaaa]

Not only firearms are allowed on the ship, the hardwares can include FA assault rifles like AK47, M16, full capacity 30 rd mag & handguns. Ship captain has to keep them under lock and key, declare to the port authority in advance and have them ready for inspection when called upon.

[Haoie]

There's a lot of interesting info here [a lot conflicting however]

 

I guess it's safe to say certain ships travelling certain routes will indeed carry weapons etc. Others probably have no need?

[Putterdude]

Absolutely not accurate or true. Yes, there are radiation detectors, but maritime law allows ships to determine what is necessary to protect the crew and passengers. If a particular country would not cooperate, the ship will simply not dock and remain outside the harbor. Many countries do have restrictions on nuclear weapons, but do not define details of ship security provisions. What could be carried on to their sovereign soil is another matter.

 

I agree entirely, as I said in an earlier post, anyone who believes that there are not guns aboard a cruise ship is very naïve. You will never have an officer tell you what they have aboard for obvious reasons but they are there locked in safes and are declared before entering a port. It is then up to the country's customs officials whether they wish to inspect them or not and often they do.

[SteveH2508]

Why are my thoughts drifting towards radical solutions for certain cruising problems - e.g. chair hogs; daily service charge stiffers; etc.?

 

Could it be the excellent malt whisky I'm imbibing tonight?:rolleyes:

[benchdex]

There's a lot of interesting info here [a lot conflicting however]

 

 

 

I guess it's safe to say certain ships travelling certain routes will indeed carry weapons etc. Others probably have no need?

 

 

If only we lived in a world where we could predict what routes and times are dangerous. Are you aware most mass shootings are carried out in "gun free" zones. Most burglaries are in well-to-do areas. (That's where the things to steal are).

 

Most terrorist acts and kidnappings are done in normally peaceful surroundings. The more innocent and seemingly non-dangerous routes are the easiest to attack. Ships don't arm and disarm by trying to predict "safe routes" and "dangerous routes". Get real, dude!

[shredie]

The only think that can stop a bad person with a gun is a good person with a gun.

 

Then the thing to do is arm all the passengers. What could possibly go wrong? :rolleyes:

[Colo Cruiser]

Then the thing to do is arm all the passengers. What could possibly go wrong? :rolleyes:

 

 

Imagine all those that would shoot at their shadow.

[sfaaa]

Imagine all those that would shoot at their shadow.

 

Recon by fire. The last one standing wins.

[Pierlesscruisers]

There are armed police detectives on board (paid by the cruise line) to investigate crimes and well trained, well armed ex-military contingencies, and pre-planned contingencies with the US Navy, etc. Way beyond airlines preparation. The visible security you see are just the surface. All that can be said.

 

While I would agree that there may very well be security personnel aboard some ships depending on their routes, I would doubt that they are "armed police detectives" as I would think that they would have absolutely no authority or jurisdiction once outside the jurisdictional limits of the city/state/whatever to which they belonged. I'm not a legal expert, however, so I may certainly be wrong on this point. Neither do I think that you would ever hear anybody acknowledging or denying the presence or absence of such a group.

 

Tom

[SoCal Cruiser78]

Why are my thoughts drifting towards radical solutions for certain cruising problems - e.g. chair hogs; daily service charge stiffers; etc.?

 

Could it be the excellent malt whisky I'm imbibing tonight?:rolleyes:

 

:). Are you suggesting pummeling the pirates with chair hogs, or using defensive arms on the hogs directly?

[Bill B]

Actually... with all the new (and ever expanding list) of on board charges: specialty restaurants, balcony dinners, 'ultimate' tour of the ship???, pizza delivery charge, 'sanctuaries', cabanas, almost being forced to buy a AIBP - because they've 'jacked-up' the prices on the bar menu - at 49.95/day+15%, and charges of over $22/day to have a shower & use the sauna/steam room after a workout on the Royal or the Regal (all after paying 100% single supplement)... it's the cruise lines that have become the pirates.

 

Perhaps all pax should be armed! ;)

[benchdex]

While I would agree that there may very well be security personnel aboard some ships depending on their routes, I would doubt that they are "armed police detectives" as I would think that they would have absolutely no authority or jurisdiction once outside the jurisdictional limits of the city/state/whatever to which they belonged. I'm not a legal expert, however, so I may certainly be wrong on this point. Neither do I think that you would ever hear anybody acknowledging or denying the presence or absence of such a group.

 

Tom

 

 

As a retired law enforcement officer in CA, I have had several friends who have retired from major agencies (LAPD) who have routinely served for the cruise lines. Their jurisdiction comes from the ship's captain who has full authority to arm, investigate, arrest, confine, eject, hold for authorities, etc. the FBI has authority and can be called in on a major crime which occurs on board a ship originally embarking from a U.S. Port, regardless where on the open sea the crime may have occurred. I'm not divulging anything that is business confidential, but not a topic to over discuss in any great detail. Modern cruise ships are like cities. Unfortunately, almost any crime you read about in your town can and has occurred on cruise ships. Not something to really worry about, but don't be lulled in to thinking you are in an environment that is somehow crime free. Many would be shocked at the stats,and certainly not something any ship wants publicized. Take the safety orientation seriously and listen to the instructions. Enjoy your cruise, but don't drink to the point of oblivion and think you have no responsibility for your own safety. This is my last post on this subject. As a frequent cruiser, I want to focus on more relaxing and fun topics. Bon Voyage.

[Pierlesscruisers]

As a retired law enforcement officer in CA, I have had several friends who have retired from major agencies (LAPD) who have routinely served for the cruise lines.

 

It appears that our difference is merely semantics. I don't doubt at all that there are both retired military and/or police officers working on board many cruise ships. But it seems to me that there is a big difference between retired policemen and policemen and between retired military and military, especially when you get into authority. But you are completely right on the authority of the captain...he's definitely responsible for the whole shebang and what he says, goes! I've seen more than 1 person come off of a cruise ship handcuffed and under guard. Certainly not a fun way to end a cruise! :eek:

 

Hope your next cruise is a great one!

 

Tom

[SoCal Cruiser78]

...But it seems to me that there is a big difference between retired policemen and policemen and between retired military and military, especially when you get into authority...

 

I have worked in law enforcement, and can tell you that many, if not most, law enforcement officers are former military.

[bob brown]

IIRC, in some cases, such as one night CTN's (which may be a thing of the past due to new regulations), cruiselines like NCL which do have their own security force, may also bring on off-duty police officer's to supplement their force due to the 'party-hardy' nature of those cruises....

Not sure if they would bring their firearms (or even need to) in that circumstance.

[cougaraz]

If only we lived in a world where we could predict what routes and times are dangerous. Are you aware most mass shootings are carried out in "gun free" zones. Most burglaries are in well-to-do areas. (That's where the things to steal are).

 

Most terrorist acts and kidnappings are done in normally peaceful surroundings. The more innocent and seemingly non-dangerous routes are the easiest to attack. Ships don't arm and disarm by trying to predict "safe routes" and "dangerous routes". Get real, dude!

 

While to some extent this may be true for terrorism, it is not true for piracy. Pirates require operating bases, favorable weather and sea conditions and a location where they can securely anchor and hold any pirated vessels, this limits their choices dramatically. The reason there was so much piracy near the Horn of Africa had everything to do with historical culture conditions and the failed state of Somalia. However, the establishment of the IRTC, standing counter-piracy task forces and addition of contracted security personnel to transiting ships has greatly reduced the frequency and success rate of pirate attacks in the region.

[Pierlesscruisers]

I have worked in law enforcement, and can tell you that many, if not most, law enforcement officers are former military.

 

I wouldn't argue with you on that point. The point I was trying to make was that there is a big difference between saying that there are "many retired police detectives" and saying that there are "many police detectives" on board and that there is the same difference between saying that there are "many retired military" on board and saying that there are "many military" on board as far as what they can do legally.

 

Anyway, on to bigger and better things.

 

Tom

[dwgreenlee]

Carrying/using firearms on a merchant (non-sovereign) ship is generally a function of the following (some already noted in this thread):

 

1. The policies of the shipping line (ship's owner/operator) and insurance carrier

2. The flag state laws and regulations on firearms and use of deadly force

3. Port state - and sometimes even coastal state - regulations on the transport and storage of firearms

4. The types of weapons embarked (i.e. military style, automatic, etc.)

5. The weapons storage facilities onboard

6. Training and possible licensing of the gunners

 

If the ship is sovereign then a port state may grant or deny entry (or in some cases a coastal state grant or deny passage) but generally cannot inspect the ship or weapons carried.

 

US Flagged ships may carry weapons in accordance with the second amendment to the US Constitution - subject to applicable port and coastal state regulations. Further, section 912 of the US Coast Guard Authorization Act of 2010* limits the liability of "An owner, operator, time chartered, master, mariner, or individual" (i.e. passenger) of a US ship using force against pirates.

 

As noted in this thread Cruise ships can and sometimes do embark special armed security teams. It was widely reported that the Costa Allegra - which broke down and was towed to port - had an embarked Italian Navy security team.

 

Of interest, merchant vessels transiting high risk areas often place the terms "armed guards" or "armed security on-board" in the destination field of the AIS transponder.

 

So, what we need is a US Flagged sovereign ship with some "good old boys" with long guns (I recommend the Barrett m82) for one of those "social impact" cruises - with the message "make my day" in the AIS transponder.

 

r/Don

____________

* Public Law 111–281 of October 15, 2010, Codified as 46 U.S. Code § 8107.

Edited June 25, 2015 by dwgreenlee

[Shogun]

Hi All

 

Its only last year that a merchant stopped at a port in India with a number of armed security personal onboard, as they were sailing into pirate waters,

what happened they got arrested and it took months to get them out of jail.

 

Scotland is to start requiring licences for air guns, so no way a cruise with a hand gun onboard is going to get into local waters.

 

If cruise ships are to cruise in dangerous locations, then the professionals ie the military are the only ones that should be armed.

 

yours Shogun

[chengkp75]

Hi All

 

Its only last year that a merchant stopped at a port in India with a number of armed security personal onboard, as they were sailing into pirate waters,

what happened they got arrested and it took months to get them out of jail.

 

Scotland is to start requiring licences for air guns, so no way a cruise with a hand gun onboard is going to get into local waters.

 

If cruise ships are to cruise in dangerous locations, then the professionals ie the military are the only ones that should be armed.

 

yours Shogun

 

Your statement that Scotland would not allow guns in local waters is most likely not correct, but I may bow to EU regulations. What is carried onboard a merchant ship with a flag from another country cannot be regulated by the port state. The port state can regulate whether the arms need to be declared when clearing customs (almost always), and whether the arms can be brought ashore. The port state can also control the use of the arms. After that, it is up to the flag state and shipowner as to whether the ship is armed.

 

I'm assuming you're referring to the "Seaman Guard Ohio" incident in 2013. From what I read, it is not that the ship was carrying arms, but that there is dispute over whether the arms are properly documented, either in the flag state or the shipowner's country. What most likely triggered the arrests is that the ship could not, or would not, produce a customs declaration for the arms from previous ports, a standard procedure.

 

Most ships in pirate areas use para-military security forces, as does the US government for protection in many areas. I know that Cunard regularly uses Pinkerton's agency onboard in undercover roles, whether armed or not.