Falling off ships

[The_Big_M]

I said it was glossed over because someone deliberately climbed over the rail before letting go and instead of suicide, it is called an accident. :(

 

It would be an accident is when the railing broke and someone went over. That said, perhaps for the families' sake the coroner wanted to spare them.

 

It is still an accident if they weren't intending to commit suicide i.e. it wasn't intentional.

 

It doesn't need to be 100% someone else's fault e.g. "the railing" to be an accident. Nothing to do with the coroner wanting to spare anyone, just the facts based on the evidence of the situation.

[MicCanberra]

Anyone who climbs over a handrail on a ship is totally 100% at fault and it is no accident.

Edited July 1, 2015 by MicCanberra

[mr walker]

am sorry but I do not believe that the coroner would make a decision based on what would make the families feel better or make the cruise line look better or worse.

 

If you are referring to my post, that isn't what I wrote. I didn't say the decision was based on what would make the families feel better. I wrote "the coroner has arrived at the best case scenario findings in regards to the participants in this case.

In the interests of the families, this would appear to be the best outcome."

 

The coroners finding was the most 'positive' one that could be concluded from the facts ie that it was some sort of misadventure by the woman & a failed rescue by the man. The coroner did this by theorising both their thoughts at the time and using the word likely.

 

And I never mentioned the cruise line, but had never thought they could be considered responsible.

 

Anyway, case closed and I re-iterate:

If some good is to come from this, then hopefully passengers will learn better how to react in a 'man overboard' situation, a situation hopefully none of us are ever put in.

[MicCanberra]

 

Anyway, case closed and I re-iterate:

If some good is to come from this, then hopefully passengers will learn better how to react in a 'man overboard' situation, a situation hopefully none of us are ever put in.

 

Agreed.:D

[johndon]

I am of the opinion that anyone who climbs over the railing and falls off the ship whether by accident or intention cannot have the incident treated as an "accident"

As soon as he/she climbs over the rail they have crossed the boundary of acting in a normal, reasonable and responsible manner and whatever the eventual outcome of their actions it is no accident as the mere climbing over the rail demonstrates a diminished responsibility by that person and they then become responsible for the outcome

I think it is drawing a long bow to describe the incident in question as an "accident". The tragic part about it is that it claimed two young lives and not just the life of the girl who climbed over the rail and "accidentally" fell

The poor boyfriend thought he could save her life by jumping after her but it is obvious now that he had no hope whatsoever of doing so

We will never know if the girl jumped from the other side of the rail or fell but to describe her demise as an "accident" when she should not have been over rail is being rather generous at best

 

John

[MicCanberra]

I am of the opinion that anyone who climbs over the railing and falls off the ship whether by accident or intention cannot have the incident treated as an "accident"

As soon as he/she climbs over the rail they have crossed the boundary of acting in a normal, reasonable and responsible manner and whatever the eventual outcome of their actions it is no accident as the mere climbing over the rail demonstrates a diminished responsibility by that person and they then become responsible for the outcome

I think it is drawing a long bow to describe the incident in question as an "accident". The tragic part about it is that it claimed two young lives and not just the life of the girl who climbed over the rail and "accidentally" fell

The poor boyfriend thought he could save her life by jumping after her but it is obvious now that he had no hope whatsoever of doing so

We will never know if the girl jumped from the other side of the rail or fell but to describe her demise as an "accident" when she should not have been over rail is being rather generous at best

 

John

 

That was my thoughts, deliberately putting them selves at risk is no accident.

[The_Big_M]

That was my thoughts, deliberately putting them selves at risk is no accident.

 

You put yourself deliberately at risk crossing the road. Some guy goes through a red light and hits you.

 

Just because you might be compliant with the law doesn't mean you're not at risk.

 

Anyway, it doesn't change the definition that it was an accident.

[The_Big_M]

That was my thoughts, deliberately putting them selves at risk is no accident.

 

Oh, and to draw an even closer parallel, look at window cleaners, or tower mast installers, acrobats – including without a harness - or even just high rise builders. All at some form of similar risk of falling - which they "deliberately put themselves in."

If they fall, it still remains an accident (assuming it wasn’t intentional.)

Edited July 2, 2015 by The_Big_M

[MicCanberra]

Definitely, but to recommend Australia's highest bravery award based on those semi-blind assumptions?! Madness.

 

Yes, agreed.

[MicCanberra]

You put yourself deliberately at risk crossing the road. Some guy goes through a red light and hits you.

 

Just because you might be compliant with the law doesn't mean you're not at risk.

 

Anyway, it doesn't change the definition that it was an accident.

 

I fail to see how that is even comparable. One is ignoring the safety system in place (hand rail) and the other is not.:confused:

[MicCanberra]

Oh, and to draw an even closer parallel, look at window cleaners, or tower mast installers, acrobats – including without a harness - or even just high rise builders. All at some form of similar risk of falling - which they "deliberately put themselves in."

If they fall, it still remains an accident (assuming it wasn’t intentional.)

 

The people in these jobs that you describe, all have harnesses and/or other mechanisms to ensure their safety as well as being trained to do what they do. If one of these people ignored their safety equipment and then fell, again it is a deliberate act and not an accident.

[The_Big_M]

I fail to see how that is even comparable. One is ignoring the safety system in place (hand rail) and the other is not.:confused:

 

Just because you "ignore a safety system" doesn't stop something being an accident.

 

An accident describes the outcome, not the responsibility for getting to that state. Lots of people have accidents where they didn't intend/expect the result... but may have contributed to that outcome.

[The_Big_M]

The people in these jobs that you describe, all have harnesses and/or other mechanisms to ensure their safety as well as being trained to do what they do. If one of these people ignored their safety equipment and

 

As said in the example, there are some who do it without safety equipment.

 

then fell, again it is a deliberate act and not an accident.

 

Just because you fall doesn't mean that you intended to fall. So it doesn't make it "deliberate."

Edited July 2, 2015 by The_Big_M

[MicCanberra]

I think we will have to agree to disagree on this issue. :D

[Haoie]

Jumping off after a man overboard is probably the worst thing one can do in a situation.

 

Spur of the moment thinking I suppose!

[GUT2407]

Jumping off after a man overboard is probably the worst thing one can do in a situation.

 

Spur of the moment thinking I suppose!

 

 

Perhaps pure reflex.

[MicCanberra]

Jumping off after a man overboard is probably the worst thing one can do in a situation.

 

Spur of the moment thinking I suppose!

 

Perhaps pure reflex.

 

Perhaps, although he had to get out of bed (apparently) so maybe more misguided adventure. Definitely not the best course of action.

[Esilef]

You have to feel bad for the families.

 

It sounds like she was in "heightened sense of emotions" after their fight in the casino.

 

She had been known to not have a sense of fear if heights and had done silly things prior.

 

I'm not saying that this is suicide but her actions of climbing over the rail was not that of a person in full control of their behaviour.

 

I'm my opinion her actions lead to the death of her boyfriend.

 

There was no accident.

[Esilef]

Ok I'm just going to state what I really mean.

 

It sounds like she was upset about their fight in the casino. They went back to the room separately. He went to bed and they probably had more words.

 

She's gone out to the balcony and not in a rational mind has climbed over the rail taunting her boyfriend. She's then slipped and he's seen it and jumped over to try and save her.

 

With his professional training you would think he would have thought prior to jumping over to help her but after fighting with her he's also not thinking clearly.

 

It's very sad but it sounds like she has had a few mental and emotional issues to cause her to undertake those actions which lead to both their deaths.

 

These are just my thoughts and not based on any solid evidence or any really knowledge.

[MicCanberra]

Just so sad for the families to have lost both of them.:(

[Aus Traveller]

Ok I'm just going to state what I really mean.

 

It sounds like she was upset about their fight in the casino. They went back to the room separately. He went to bed and they probably had more words.

 

She's gone out to the balcony and not in a rational mind has climbed over the rail taunting her boyfriend. She's then slipped and he's seen it and jumped over to try and save her.

 

With his professional training you would think he would have thought prior to jumping over to help her but after fighting with her he's also not thinking clearly.

 

It's very sad but it sounds like she has had a few mental and emotional issues to cause her to undertake those actions which lead to both their deaths.

 

These are just my thoughts and not based on any solid evidence or any really knowledge.

A logical suggestion of what might have happened. I think it would be unlikely she would have climbed over the rail and hung by her hands if she wasn't 'playing' to an audience - her boyfriend. If she was climbing over the rail just for fun he probably wouldn't have known she had done it. He was in bed.

Edited July 3, 2015 by Aus Traveller

[john watson]

 

A recommendation from the enquiry is that cruiselines should include in the safety instructions to passengers on what to do in the event of a 'man overboard' incident. It is reported that Carnival are expected to adopt this recommendation.

 

I am pretty certain that on every Emergency Muster Drill I have attended they have said regarding a man overboard situation is that you should throw a life ring into the sea and alert the nearest crew member by shouting MAN OVERBOARD. The life ring has a light on it and an epirb and will drift roughly same as swimmer. It is unlikely swimmer will reach the ring but that is not the point.

 

They are still likely doomed but there may be a chance of a successful outcome.

 

Regards John

[MicCanberra]

I am pretty certain that on every Emergency Muster Drill I have attended they have said regarding a man overboard situation is that you should throw a life ring into the sea and alert the nearest crew member by shouting MAN OVERBOARD. The life ring has a light on it and an epirb and will drift roughly same as swimmer. It is unlikely swimmer will reach the ring but that is not the point.

 

They are still likely doomed but there may be a chance of a successful outcome.

 

Regards John

 

You are correct in your recollection, the safety videos shown also demonstrate this.:D

[madfisher]

hello mic

long time since we last spoke. solstice 2013 from Hawaii

how is everything these days. lake Macquarie is still a great place.

regards michael

[GUT2407]

hello mic

long time since we last spoke. solstice 2013 from Hawaii

how is everything these days. lake Macquarie is still a great place.

regards michael

 

 

Butting in here, but bot wrong there.