Cuba

[Catlover54]

So you're giving Russia a break because they have museums and scenery. Those are important to you, obviously. Maybe Cuba offers things that are important to other people. And try telling them they don't have any scenery.

 

 

Every person has to decide on his own what is of value to him in another county when he travels, and what is overwhelmingly repulsive, but whether or not the local people value their scenery and monuments is not too relevant to how foreigners will value it when making their decisions.

 

But you misunderstood my post, as I should have been clearer. I was attempting to explain why *many* people now travel to Russia and Nam for tourism, despite oppressive governments. I am not one of those people, as many of my family in Eastern Europe over the course of decades were murdered by communists as "enemies of the state" and pretty gilded church museums will not overcome that. I traveled back to Russia during a post-communism thaw a number of years ago, when there was more free speech, to see how things had evolved post-communism and to witness a new hopeful era, and when a former KGB guy did not run the place, like he does now. But now, things are not going in the right direction on many fronts and I have no interest in subsidizing tourism there or witnessing the heartbreak of a slide backwards ( though at least you can still leave, unlike under communism). Without my personal history, I would not be as sensitive to what is going on and just take pix of the churches etc to show to friends, like most people do.

For years I have also avoided Muslim countries due to their views of women as inferior, though I have no personal horror connections there, but I will broaden my horizons with a trip including Turkey soon. I have some unease about this, though it is just Turkey, not Saudi Arabia, but have rationalized it in the same way a liberal older gay couple I know rationalized a trip to Iran a couple years ago (they wanted to see certain wildlife specimens unique to Iran -- they deemed gay persecution and murders in Iran "regrettable" but would not let that stand in their way of seeing pretty nature).

 

I also know many, many Jews, children of Holocaust survivors, who simply will not travel to Germany, despite pretty castles on the Rhein and good Rieslings and beer, and beautiful mountains, even though the vast majority of people alive in Germany now had nothing to do with the former WW2 regime.

Edited July 15, 2015 by Catlover54

[Jim Avery]

[quote name=But I am not signing up for that anymore than for travel to any other country where people are not allowed to vote with their feet and leave if they choose to do so without having the government consider it a crime for which you can be thrown in prison. Currently, you can exit Russia, and Nam ( obviously not the case in the past and at least in Russia it might revert back to the old days when attempting to leave was a serious criminal offense). But

Russia at least has historic museums and scenery ( e.g., Petersburg/ Leningrad) whereas Cuba has nothing you cannot get on other Caribbean islands or Miami, other than bragging rights that you were there and met some nice people who may or may not feel free to speak openly with you.

And yes, if I were gay, and out, I would avoid Russia and the Middle East, other than Israel, and not push my luck[/quote]

 

Going back to the early days of the Castro regime, anyone who wished could leave Cuba. You could only take the clothes on your back. Fast forward to today and look to Washington, DC. Anyone in the U.S. that wishes to can leave. Try to take all your assets with you. Anything over $10,000 and you can be in violation of several laws. Even your honestly earned and fully tax paid assets will require lots of paperwork and hoops to take with you. Getting very close to other regimes imho. And don't give me that tired old line about it inhibiting drug trafficking. Recent news events show how well that works.

[cruiseluv]

I have a feeling in five years it may have lost much of the nostalgic charm it currently has. Just imagine what will happen once they have the opportunity to buy new cars -- the streets will no longer look like a scene from the 50's.

 

True... You will not be able to feast on the sight of people standing in lines to get the bare necessities... Oh, the inhumanity!! And, who knows, maybe by the time the masses can get to Cuba the apartheid system currently in place will have been abolished... that would be such a shame...Yes, as they saying goes "One man's trash is another man's treasure"...

[Chairsin]

I am sorry if you think I am insensitive to the plight of the Cuban people. Nothing could be further from the truth. I was simply saying that with a hopefully improved economic environment it is inevitable that some of the authentic Cuban culture , architecture and ambiance will be lost. Progress sometimes comes at such a cost. I hope that as living conditions improve their culture does not disappear. It has happened in other places in the name of economic improvement and I was only trying to point out ( perhaps clumsily) that it would be a shame if if were to happen here.

[cruiseluv]

Oh no, I totally understand... its like tourists being disappointed if people in Rio de Janeiro stopped living in shantytowns and they did away with the favelas tours.

 

What aspect of the "culture" are you afraid will disappear? Being repressed? Having their lives center on getting the necessities through any means possible? Being caught in a time warp forced on them by the totalitarian regime under which they live?

 

And with respect to the architecture changing... the only danger to this is historical buildings which are currently dilapidated and barely standing and might crumble before the masses get there. I doubt that progress will cause them any more harm that what has already been inflicted.

 

Enjoy your visit. Just know that Cubans living in the island cannot partake of the amenities that are open to tourists. Its an apartheid system.

[Laylam]

Oh no, I totally understand... its like tourists being disappointed if people in Rio de Janeiro stopped living in shantytowns and they did away with the favelas tours.

 

What aspect of the "culture" are you afraid will disappear? Being repressed? Having their lives center on getting the necessities through any means possible? Being caught in a time warp forced on them by the totalitarian regime under which they live?

 

And with respect to the architecture changing... the only danger to this is historical buildings which are currently dilapidated and barely standing and might crumble before the masses get there. I doubt that progress will cause them any more harm that what has already been inflicted.

 

Enjoy your visit. Just know that Cubans living in the island cannot partake of the amenities that are open to tourists. Its an apartheid system.

 

So Cruiseluv, where do you suggest we travel???

[cruiseluv]

So Cruiseluv, where do you suggest we travel???

 

To wherever you want, not my problem. I'm just commenting on the reality of Cuba, not the romanticized version that many people would like to believe and propagandize.

[Laylam]

To wherever you want, not my problem. I'm just commenting on the reality of Cuba, not the romanticized version that many people would like to believe and propagandize.

 

I think you could do that without coming across as rude and judgemental. Chairsin, like you, and for a number of reasons, I would like to visit Cuba before it is forever changed. There is a well balanced article here http://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/jun/17/havana-city-brink-change

[cruiseluv]

I think you could do that without coming across as rude and judgemental. Chairsin, like you, and for a number of reasons, I would like to visit Cuba before it is forever changed. There is a well balanced article here http://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/jun/17/havana-city-brink-change

 

"Rude and judgmental"? Lol! So any infusion of reality is not welcome as to not burst anybody's bubble? Yes, by all means, go before the totalitarian regime disappears and with that all the old cars, people playing music in the corners, and whatever else you think makes up the "Cuban culture".

[Chairsin]

Layla's,

Thank you so much for providing the link yo that article -- much food for thought.

[frantic36]

"Rude and judgmental"? Lol! So any infusion of reality is not welcome as to not burst anybody's bubble? Yes, by all means, go before the totalitarian regime disappears and with that all the old cars, people playing music in the corners, and whatever else you think makes up the "Cuban culture".

 

I am sure you do not mean to come across as "rude and judgemental". However though this may be reality and you might not agree with what Chairsin wrote you could phrase it in a better way. We all have different ideas and it is would be nice if we all could be not so harsh in expressing our viewpoint. Maybe not the "reality" of the world but we could all try harder to make it so.

 

I know I have come across as judgemental in some of my off the cuff posts and wished I had said it nicer when I have reviewed them.

 

Julie

 

P.S. Thank you Laylam for the link and interesting article.

Edited July 17, 2015 by frantic36

[markham]

Frantic36,

 

Your point is thoughful and instructive. And I also know you personally.

 

Nope, nothing judgmental about you given your self-awareness, commodity that we can all add to our breakfast cereals and start our days the better for it.

 

See you in a few months on Odyssey again! The gang will all be there too for another champagne tasting, no doubt about it.

 

Happy sailing!

[frantic36]

Frantic36,

 

Your point is thoughful and instructive. And I also know you personally.

 

Nope, nothing judgmental about you given your self-awareness, commodity that we can all add to our breakfast cereals and start our days the better for it.

 

See you in a few months on Odyssey again! The gang will all be there too for another champagne tasting, no doubt about it.

 

Happy sailing!

 

Awww your so nice.

 

Regarding the champagne tasting a U.S. friend is suggesting I get some California sparkling in LA and mix it with some French and make you all do a blind tasting. I am thinking about this. Maybe I will bring some Australian and New Zealand with me from home? :)

 

Cheers,

 

Julie

[Mr Luxury]

Awww your so nice.

 

 

 

Regarding the champagne tasting a U.S. friend is suggesting I get some California sparkling in LA and mix it with some French and make you all do a blind tasting. I am thinking about this. Maybe I will bring some Australian and New Zealand with me from home? :)

 

 

 

Cheers,

 

 

 

Julie

 

 

I shouldn't Julie,you'll be able to taste the sheep.

[frantic36]

I shouldn't Julie,you'll be able to taste the sheep.

 

You will pay for that :cool:.......I know your wife:D.

[cruisr]

I have a number of friends that have been to Cuba and based on their reports the only attraction it holds for me is that it would be country 110 on my current list. A good friend of mine was disappointed in the fact that the infrastructure was even worse then the tour operator explained, she said that the cars from the 50's are more like a moving tourist attraction tion and the great majority are used as taxis and they are far from everywhere. Hotels were nowhere near the standards she would expect and closer to two star US hotels. Shower was a trickle of luke warm water. Some interesting architecture and parts of the countryside were pretty. The thing she liked the best were the Jazz and musical performances she saw.

 

I guess a port call would be a good way to see it and if anyone will do it well it will be Seabourn.

[cruisr]

Awww your so nice.

 

Regarding the champagne tasting a U.S. friend is suggesting I get some California sparkling in LA and mix it with some French and make you all do a blind tasting. I am thinking about this. Maybe I will bring some Australian and New Zealand with me from home? :)

 

Cheers,

 

Julie

 

OT a wee bit but I have done wine country tours in both Australia and NZ and I think they have fantastic SBs. ESpecially the Marlborough region on the South Island, I also love Cloudy Bay SB, first introduced to me by Gunther, the HM on the Pride, in 2007.

[Chairsin]

If you like Cloudy Bay Sauvignon Blanc you might enjoy their premium one, Te Koko.

[cruisr]

If you like Cloudy Bay Sauvignon Blanc you might enjoy their premium one, Te Koko.

 

Thank you. I'll look for it.

[stamfordian]

And yes, if I were gay, and out, I would avoid Russia and the Middle East, other than Israel, and not push my luck

 

Might also be pushing it travelling in Alabama, Arkansas, Arizona, Georgia, Indiana, Louisiana, Mississippi, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Texas or Utah given their current state legislation on such matters...

[wripro]

There goes my bucket list!

[markham]

Sad but true.

 

To borrow a phrase from Jon Stewart who has used it when referring to South Carolina, I now refer to all of them as "whooppee cushion" states. Sorry, but my bucket list is waaaay too long to contemplate visits to them. Maybe in 20 years, maybe never.

 

That said, there is a subset of these states that were acquired along the way from France, Spain and Mexico. Are petitions useful and/or effective as a first step in making divestments a reality? Just sayin'...

 

Happy sailing!

[cruisr]

Sad but true.

 

To borrow a phrase from Jon Stewart who has used it when referring to South Carolina, I now refer to all of them as "whooppee cushion" states. Sorry, but my bucket list is waaaay too long to contemplate visits to them. Maybe in 20 years, maybe never.

 

That said, there is a subset of these states that were acquired along the way from France, Spain and Mexico. Are petitions useful and/or effective as a first step in making divestments a reality? Just sayin'...

 

Happy sailing!

 

Sad as you missing out in meeting some of the nicest people I have ever met. I fell in love with Charleston and the low country area and am actively looking at purchasing a second home there.

[MillieMeter]

That is a little unfair to judge entire states because of dumb legislation and legislators.

 

Many, many in my state definitely do not agree with the policy against gay marriage or want to fly the Confederate Battle flag. In my church and community, there are lots of happily married gays and unmarried partners who seem to love and are loved by their neighbors.

 

I feel certain that regardless of sexual orientation, race, ethic or religious beliefs anyone would be welcomed by the vast majority of my acquaintances .

 

I think the media, in a large number of instances, portrays us in a much more bigoted and hateful light than is often times deserved.

 

Just sayin'

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[MWillow]

Charleston is wonderful and has some amazing restaurants and chefs.