Man Overboard!

[lisiamc]

I makes no difference to me why someone would go overboard on a cruise ship. Life is precious and if there is a way to detect someone going overboard in real time lets have it.

 

Shak

 

The number of people falling/jumping off hotel balconies far exceeds the number of people overboard from cruise ships every year. What do you plan to do about them?

 

Life is precious, but everything has risks. We can't keep everyone safe, every day, and I don't think we should want to. The risk of (anyone) going overboard is acceptably small for me.

[Shak]

The number of people falling/jumping off hotel balconies far exceeds the number of people overboard from cruise ships every year. What do you plan to do about them?

 

 

 

Life is precious, but everything has risks. We can't keep everyone safe, every day, and I don't think we should want to. The risk of (anyone) going overboard is acceptably small for me.

 

 

The biggest difference is there is time to rescue someone falling into the water.

 

Shak

[Shak]

So everybody will end up paying more for their cruises to pay for the new technology, whereas many who "fall" over board are deliberately trying to end it all.

 

If you have a system that immediately detects people falling, we may spend a lot of time on false alarms and people might get complacent in thinking they are now not in any danger from taking a selfie or having a friend take a picture of them standing on the rail.

 

It is a process of natural selection which Darwin has described years ago.

 

REgards John

 

 

I am using the same "ifs" as you.

 

Shak

[navybankerteacher]

The biggest difference is there is time to rescue someone falling into the water.

 

Shak

 

Not always: there is a good chance that the impact of hitting the water would be fatal; or the person could be unconscious, face down, and drown; or be drawn into the ship's screw.

 

Sure: a close-to-fail-safe detection system could be developed and deployed: but at what cost? What additional fare would accept to provide for it? And, since a good number of those going over the side represent suicide attempts (likely to be repeated), at what long term efficacy?

 

Why not assign a crew member to watch every passenger? That would also

"...detect someone going overboard in real time..." - so why not "...let's have it."?

[BlueRiband]

I makes no difference to me why someone would go overboard on a cruise ship. Life is precious and if there is a way to detect someone going overboard in real time lets have it.

 

Shak

 

Life is too precious to even let them fall into the water in the first place. Cruise ships can do this or this. Having your balcony enclosed would be a small price to pay for the 100% assurance nobody can ever "fall" from it.:rolleyes:

 

Why not do it? Isn't an ounce of prevention far better than a pound of cure?

[Shak]

Life is too precious to even let them fall into the water in the first place. Cruise ships can do this or this. Having your balcony enclosed would be a small price to pay for the 100% assurance nobody can ever "fall" from it.:rolleyes:

 

Why not do it? Isn't an ounce of prevention far better than a pound of cure?

 

Why not do it? Isn't an ounce of prevention far better than a pound of cure?

 

I was thinking of something more alone these lines. And yes I would be will to pay more for a cruise.

 

http://www.puretechsystems.com/man-overboard-detection.html

 

http://www.wptv.com/news/local-news/investigations/cruise-lines-are-slow-to-implement-a-man-overboard-detection-system-for-passengers

 

 

Shak

[dice02]

I think most people that fall of ships because they want to leave this world. If your drunk enough to fall of a ship , you probably will black out on contact with the water . How many people are trained or know how to jump into the water from heights? The lowest deck is almost 40 feet or more from the water .

When I took training as a lifeguard . We were taught to jump into the water properly from about 12 feet . The only way to jump was feet first . Most people fall overboard probably don't go feet first .

The shock of hitting the water would be a shock to most people.

 

In the 60's in the Tonkin Gulf had a guy get blown off the flight deck of a aircraft carrier, he lived and our ship was able to pick him up. He was swimming and still had his screwdriver in his hand. That was a scared lucky young man. Wonder if he goes on cruises?

[BlueRiband]

Those systems claim to sound an alert after somebody has already gone overboard - and probably sustained injuries on the trip down.

 

Enclose the balconies and decks and let's keep everyone - including drunks - safe.:rolleyes:

 

Now we have to redesign the stair rails to prevent this tragedy:

:D

[john watson]

Those systems claim to sound an alert after somebody has already gone overboard - and probably sustained injuries on the trip down.

 

Enclose the balconies and decks and let's keep everyone - including drunks - safe.:rolleyes:

 

Now we have to redesign the stair rails to prevent this tragedy:

:D

 

They currently have enclosed balconies on some ships. These are called "Outside Cabins"

 

Regards John

[Treven]

Life is too precious to even let them fall into the water in the first place. Cruise ships can do this or this. Having your balcony enclosed would be a small price to pay for the 100% assurance nobody can ever "fall" from it.:rolleyes:

 

Why not do it? Isn't an ounce of prevention far better than a pound of cure?

Then ships would have to enclose the Promenade deck as well. Oh hell, just enclose the entire ship with some unbreakable plexiglass.

[sloopsailor]

I makes no difference to me why someone would go overboard on a cruise ship. Life is precious and if there is a way to detect someone going overboard in real time lets have it.

 

Shak

 

The biggest difference is there is time to rescue someone falling into the water.

 

Shak

 

Why not do it? Isn't an ounce of prevention far better than a pound of cure?

 

The detection system you propose will not prevent a stupid or suicidal person from falling or jumping overboard. It will only alert the ship that someone has done something stupid, so they can attempt a possible rescue. That isn't much of a solution. The person has already fallen - so that isn't fixed - and during the fall they could hit something on the way down, which is very likely (as in that video of that dumb woman who is now suing the cruise line for her stupidity), incapacitating the person and resulting in them being conscienceless. By the time a rescue team could reach the person, they could already be dead due to drowning after getting knocked out during the fall. By the time the ship can turn around and return to the place where the person hit the water, it could me a half hour or more, and be miles away if the ship is steaming at near full speed of 25 knots per hour, needs to slow down to make a safe turn that doesn't cause injury to the SANE people on board (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/dozens-injured-in-cruise-ship-mishap/), and return to the point of impact.

 

So, the detection system isn't fool proof by any measurement.

 

So, then why don't you propose going to 100% guaranteed methods to PREVENT the fall in the first place if life is so precious to you? Would you prefer that all cruise ship remove all the balconies and install fixed windows instead? The detection system won't stop someone from jumping off balconies if they are still available on ships.

 

How about covering up all open deck areas with stainless steel netting? Unless you are willing to prevent anyone from climbing up on a railing and jumping, your favorite detection system hasn't eliminated that situation.

 

How about only allowed people out on those decks with supervision? Or tethered to a cable attached to the middle of the ship? How about electric fences?

 

Unless you are willing to do whatever is necessary to PREVENT the fall in the first place, you aren't solving the real problem, and people will still die. If you value life so much, you should be demanding an "all or nothing" solution, not a system that lets people jump in the first place. :rolleyes:

 

Relying on a detection system is like installing surveillance cameras around your home and then leaving the doors and windows open, with the expectation that you will have a video of the thieves after they come in and steal your things. Not much good after the fact.

Edited August 30, 2015 by sloopsailor

[navybankerteacher]

 

Enclose the balconies and decks and let's keep everyone - including drunks - safe.:rolleyes:

 

 

An enclosed balcony on a ship is no longer a balcony, it is an ocean view cabin - perhaps with a large window. Enclosed decks on a ship means no open decks -- sort of like an airplane.

 

Why not offer people a week at Mall of America in stead of a cruise? No chance of falling overboard there.

[leaveitallbehind]

I makes no difference to me why someone would go overboard on a cruise ship. Life is precious and if there is a way to detect someone going overboard in real time lets have it.

 

Shak

 

I think a dose of reality is needed to keep things in perspective with this. There are 20,335,000 average annual cruise ship passengers globally. In 2014, there were 22 passengers and crew total who went overboard from cruise ships. Do the math.

 

While I agree every life is precious, there clearly is not a glaring problem that is in need of different technology than currently exists to reduce the instances of passengers going overboard. And no technology will prevent those who do so intentionally. Nor is there assurance that improved detection technology would in fact prevent any fatalities resulting from passenger overboard incidents.

 

I just don't see the problem here requiring a new solution as IMO the cruise industry is clearly very safe with regards to passengers going overboard.

Edited August 30, 2015 by leaveitallbehind

[Shak]

The detection system you propose will not prevent a stupid or suicidal person from falling or jumping overboard. It will only alert the ship that someone has done something stupid, so they can attempt a possible rescue. That isn't much of a solution. The person has already fallen - so that isn't fixed - and during the fall they could hit something on the way down, which is very likely (as in that video of that dumb woman who is now suing the cruise line for her stupidity), incapacitating the person and resulting in them being conscienceless. By the time a rescue team could reach the person, they could already be dead due to drowning after getting knocked out during the fall. By the time the ship can turn around and return to the place where the person hit the water, it could me a half hour or more, and be miles away if the ship is steaming at near full speed of 25 knots per hour, needs to slow down to make a safe turn that doesn't cause injury to the SANE people on board (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/dozens-injured-in-cruise-ship-mishap/), and return to the point of impact.

 

So, the detection system isn't fool proof by any measurement.

 

So, then why don't you propose going to 100% guaranteed methods to PREVENT the fall in the first place if life is so precious to you? Would you prefer that all cruise ship remove all the balconies and install fixed windows instead? The detection system won't stop someone from jumping off balconies if they are still available on ships.

 

How about covering up all open deck areas with stainless steel netting? Unless you are willing to prevent anyone from climbing up on a railing and jumping, your favorite detection system hasn't eliminated that situation.

 

How about only allowed people out on those decks with supervision? Or tethered to a cable attached to the middle of the ship? How about electric fences?

 

Unless you are willing to do whatever is necessary to PREVENT the fall in the first place, you aren't solving the real problem, and people will still die. If you value life so much, you should be demanding an "all or nothing" solution, not a system that lets people jump in the first place. :rolleyes:

 

Relying on a detection system is like installing surveillance cameras around your home and then leaving the doors and windows open, with the expectation that you will have a video of the thieves after they come in and steal your things. Not much good after the fact.

 

 

I'm sorry I get your argument. I am not advocating covering the ship but if technology exists as in the three videos why wouldn't anyone want it.

 

Shak

[Capt_BJ]

can anyone show me a documented case of a small child falling from a cruise ship?

 

can anyone show me a documented case of a teen falling from a cruise ship - discounting the ding dong who JUMPED for fun?

 

I was a math major ... is there a correlation 'tween drinking age and 'overboard'?

 

One does not "fall off" a ship anymore ....... cruise ship or other.

 

I had a man over board on one of my ships ..... a crewman was leaning against a drop-able lifeline while painting .... he'd been told to NEVER trust a life line .... the line's quick release gave away and the crewman fell into the water ..... pierside .....

 

He was told to NOT trust the lifeline.

 

WAS HE EVER RAZED when we got him out of the water ......

Edited August 30, 2015 by Capt_BJ

[SantaFeFan]

I am not advocating covering the ship but if technology exists as in the three videos why wouldn't anyone want it.

 

Shak

 

Quite simple, the technology is actually not that effective. One of your links has a segment where a news reporter jumps off of a 45 FOOT boat and is detected. That small boat is a far cry from the 1,000 ft long, 18 deck high cruise ships common today. What works on a small boat only two decks high doesn't necessarily scale up to a ship hundreds of times larger.

 

Plus, what happens every time a towel gets blown off a balcony? Do we really want the entire ship and it's occupants to go into emergency mode to save a towel?

 

People will be people. Some are stupider than others. Society's responsibility to save people from themselves has a limit. Personally, I don't want my cruise fare to go up to add marginally effective technology that "might" save some idiot who went overboard. The responsibility to keep themselves safe rests with the individual, and not to the more intelligent people in the world.

 

Like it has been pointed out, why only put into place a marginally effective system if the life of the idiot is so important. Isn't only going part way to save someone from themselves just as immoral as doing nothing? If something needs to be done, why not do the ultimate and completely seal the ships so no one could ever go overboard?

 

Problem solved. Oh wait, they could still get drunk and fall down a flight of stairs and hurt themselves.

and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okmDVkYbiH8 .Something that I have no doubt happens much more frequently than people going overboard. Why aren't you also advocating the elimination of stairs? Edited August 30, 2015 by SantaFeFan

[Shak]

Quite simple, the technology is actually not that effective. One of your links has a segment where a news reporter jumps off of a 45 FOOT boat and is detected. That small boat is a far cry from the 1,000 ft long, 18 deck high cruise ships common today. What works on a small boat only two decks high doesn't necessarily scale up to a ship hundreds of times large.

 

Plus, what happens every time a towel gets blown off a balcony? Do we really want the entire ship and it's occupants to go into emergency mode to save a towel?

 

People will be people. Some are stupider than others. Society's responsibility to save people from themselves has a limit. Personally, I don't want my cruise fare to go up to add marginally effective technology that "might" save some idiot who went overboard. The responsibility to keep themselves safe rests with the individual, and not to the more intelligent people in the world.

 

Like it has been pointed out, why only put into place a marginally effective system if the life of the idiot is so important. Isn't only going part way to save someone from themselves just as immoral as doing nothing? If something needs to be done, why not do the ultimate and completely seal the ships so no one could ever go overboard?

 

Problem solved. Oh wait, they could still get drunk and fall down a flight of stairs and hurt themselves.

and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okmDVkYbiH8 .Something that I have no doubt happens much more frequently than people going overboard. Why aren't you also advocating the elimination of stairs?

 

 

As I see it people go overboard due to an accident, an attempt to take their own life, or homicide. I would think that if the alarm went off the cruise line would be able to review their video tapes to see if it was a towel as you claim.

 

Shak

[sloopsailor]

As I see it people go overboard due to an accident, an attempt to take their own life, or homicide. I would think that if the alarm went off the cruise line would be able to review their video tapes to see if it was a towel as you claim.

 

Shak

 

And how is reviewing the video AFTER the fact going to stop it from happening? While it might be nice to have it on video to review exactly what happened, the fact is that it is already too late.

Edited August 30, 2015 by sloopsailor

[zqvol]

Interesting article:

 

http://elliott.org/blog/its-past-time-to-add-man-overboard-systems-on-all-cruise-ships/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+elliottorg+%28Elliott%29

 

I think a better term for it is stupid.

[leaveitallbehind]

I am not advocating covering the ship but if technology exists as in the three videos why wouldn't anyone want it.

 

Shak

 

$$$$! to implement globally - which would come out of the cruising populations wallet - most likely in significant disproportion to the size of the problem and the questionable benefit in terms of actual lowered fatalities resulting from the technology of the extremely small percentage of cruisers who actually go overboard each year.

 

In other words, IMO it's unnecessary overkill to the safety measures already in place which clearly work extremely well based on the exceptionally low number of annual incidents relative to the very high number of cruisers. (See my post #38).

Edited August 30, 2015 by leaveitallbehind

[PTMary]

Technology already exists that would solve the problem at a much cheaper cost. When we arrive at the check in desk, the micro chip that the government implanted into our arms when we were inoculated would be registered. Inexpensive RFID scanners could easily be built into the sides of the ship near the waterline and register someone passing by, much like a scanner at the supermarket. Location, identity, time of day, speed of the descent, and size of the splash could all be recorded and available for review by the lawyers when necessary.

 

There, problem solved. :D

Edited August 30, 2015 by PTMary

[leaveitallbehind]

Technology already exists that would solve the problem at a much cheaper cost. When we arrive at the check in desk, the micro chip that the government implanted into our arms when we were inoculated would be registered. Inexpensive RFID scanners could easily be built into the sides of the ship near the waterline and register someone passing by, much like a scanner at the supermarket. Location, identity, time of day, speed of the descent, and size of the splash could all be recorded and available for review by the lawyers when necessary.

 

There, problem solved. :D

 

Finally, the voice of reason!! :D;)

[navybankerteacher]

As I see it people go overboard due to an accident, an attempt to take their own life, or homicide. I would think that if the alarm went off the cruise line would be able to review their video tapes to see if it was a towel as you claim.

 

Shak

 

You are kidding yourself: how does someone go overboard due to an accident -- without him first engaging in reckless, stupid or irresponsible behavior? Sure: a drunk wants to walk on top of a railing and slips and falls over the side - yes, to the extent he did not want that result, you can claim that it was an accident -- bug it would be his drunkeness that was the primary and proximate cause. So forget preventing death by accident.

 

If it was an attempt to take their own life, stopping them from doing it on a cruise ship is unlikely to prevent him trying it elsewhere. So forget preventing death by suicide.

 

If a killer is determined to take someone's life and he cannot do it by tossing him over the side, he will find another means. So forget preventing death by homicide.

[flacplnj]

Life is too precious to even let them fall into the water in the first place. Cruise ships can do this or this. Having your balcony enclosed would be a small price to pay for the 100% assurance nobody can ever "fall" from it.:rolleyes:

 

Why not do it? Isn't an ounce of prevention far better than a pound of cure?

 

You have to kidding right? :rolleyes:What about the open decks? Are you really suggesting a fully enclosed cruise ship? :rolleyes: There are no 100% assurances in anything including life. There are many ways people can kill themselves if they so desire to do so. Full time protection of people from themselves whether it is a suicide attempt or drunken stupor is not reasonably possible..

[flacplnj]

Technology already exists that would solve the problem at a much cheaper cost. When we arrive at the check in desk, the micro chip that the government implanted into our arms when we were inoculated would be registered. Inexpensive RFID scanners could easily be built into the sides of the ship near the waterline and register someone passing by, much like a scanner at the supermarket. Location, identity, time of day, speed of the descent, and size of the splash could all be recorded and available for review by the lawyers when necessary.

 

There, problem solved. :D

 

If we ever get to a time when government requires the implanting of a microchip into individuals we are going to have a lot more to be concerned about than people falling or jumping off of a ship.:eek: