DSC cannot be removed onboard anymore

[triptolemus]

Let's face it -- the DSC is not a tip, has never been a tip, and we have been misled for a long time about it.

 

Let's face it... these things are mutually exclusive. You (we?) can't have always known that the DSC is not a tip and be misled at the same time.

 

Stop trying to be a dramatic victim. You're smarter than that.

[pokerpro5]

Let's face it... these things are mutually exclusive. You (we?) can't have always known that the DSC is not a tip and be misled at the same time.

 

Stop trying to be a dramatic victim. You're smarter than that.

 

You're getting caught up in semantics here.

 

I am not a victim, dramatic or otherwise.

 

I will say that I always suspected the DSC was not directly connected to staff pay, but that there was enough doubt prior to 2015 to where I didn't bring it up here.

 

Given the events of this year (the double increase followed by the delayed removal procedure just introduced), I believe this puts very strong evidence that adjusting the DSC up or down will not affect the staff.

 

By "misled", I meant that NCL clearly implies that removing the DSC takes money out of the staff's pocket, though they dance around it just enough to avoid directly saying it.

 

Anyway, it is clear to me that the new CEO is trying to make things more difficult on the "value shopping" clientele of NCL -- DSC removers, last-minute bargain fare shoppers, etc. I can't fault him for that, as his obligation is to the shareholders, not us.

 

This is why I am not removing the DSC. I don't want to be on a list of customers they want to avoid serving.

[jb456]

I don't know why people keep making up scenarios where NCL deducts from staff's future paychecks if people remove the DSC 30+ days after they get back. A lot of reaching is going on here.

 

Let's face it -- the DSC is not a tip, has never been a tip, and we have been misled for a long time about it. It's a clever pricing trick NCL (and plenty of other lines) use to make their base fares lower, and to guilt people away from removing that extra portion of the fare. If you think you are deducting from NCL, you might say, "Screw the big corporation" and do it. If you think you are deducting from low-earning, hardworking staff members, you want to leave it in place. Psychology 101, people. That's why NCL is so evasive about how the DSC is distributed -- because the truth would result in a lot more removals of it.

 

Given this new piece of information -- along with the DOUBLE increase of DSC within a few months -- I would be absolutely shocked if DSC removals/additions affected staff pay.

 

So for those of you patting yourselves on the back, believing that keeping the DSC "supports the hardworking crew" or "helps them pay bills", you are living in dreamland. When you pay the DSC, you are padding NCL's pockets, and no one else's.

 

With that said, I am going to leave the DSC in place due to this new policy. I still object to being hit with a double service charge for dining in the specialties, but I'm not going to adjust the DSC because I don't want the Miami office black-marking my account in any way for the future.

 

I assume this recent change was simply to make it tougher on those wishing to remove the DSC, but I am also a bit concerned that this will also be used for "negative marketing" purposes, so I want to stay away from that.

 

So well played, NCL. You win this round!

 

Oh, and don't bother disputing this with your credit card company. NCL is on good legal footing on this one, and will win the dispute. And if you get lucky and win (probably from NCL failing to respond in time), they can ban you from the cruise line for retroactively taking back fare. So this is not a good idea at all.

 

Why let them win?

 

Good marketing for years has lead many to believe that it goes to the hard working staff and 3rd janitor training assistant behind the scenes lol. Now what? people will spin it again and say "if you send letter in live in fear of being black balled?" LOL

 

PFFF - Does not seem like a hassle at all to fill and scan paper. I wonder why they ask for "a reason" when that is their marketing wording for their FAQs but not on the guest contract just at the discretion of consumer in contract.

 

 

Do they refund to credit card or mail a check? If it's credit card the passengers who remove it will really not even notice it and probably have the credit before they even receive their monthly statement. Only one loosing out on that is NCL paying extra credit card processing fees.

Edited September 13, 2015 by jb456

[em-sk]

Not so fast.

 

This "rebate" situation makes it fairly clear that your DSC does NOT directly land in the hands of the hardworking NCL crew.

 

Why?

 

Because you have 30 days from the end of your cruise to submit the form, and it takes them another 2 weeks to profit it -- which means that 44 days can pass since the cruise before a refund is issued.

 

So how would that work for employees? Do they reach into their wallets and take the "tips" back?

 

Obviously not.

 

This new policy pretty much clarifies exactly what I always suspected:

 

The DSC simply reimburses/subsidizes NCL's payment of employees, and raising it or lowering it does not affect their pay.

 

If you think I'm wrong, explain how they can retroactive remove tips that are opted out of 30 days after the cruise. Some of those employees may not even be working for NCL at that point!

 

This entire system is silly. So is the tipping practice in North America. I don't like it and would generally like it if the hospitality industry (cruise ships, restaurants, hotels) paid there staff a living wage and accepted responsibility for delivering excellent service. If they offer good service I will come back and pay more, if they don't I may go their competition.

 

Despite the fact I think tipping and DSC are silly. I still pay these fees and given tips consistent with social norms, because that is how as a society we have chosen to compensate workers in the service industry. It is wrong, but I am not going to be able to change the service industry in general.

 

At least the DSC are better than arbitrary tipping. NCL management can then take responsibility for managing there staff and compensating them based on how well they work as a team. Hopefully it has a way of distributing its DSC fund based on how well staff balance safety, and customer service.

 

The DSC, port fees, fuel surcharges etc. are simply how NCL choosing to split up its charges. NCL is going to have to pay the port based on the number people on the ship, it is going to have to pay for fuel based on the amount of fuel it buys and staff based on how well they perform meeting its quality objectives. How closely any of this lines up with the fees is questionable.

 

I would suggest just regard it as part of the cost of a cruise and leave it to NCL to split it up as needed.

[ighten]

The DSC just like CC tipping in major chain restaurants is nothing more than a way for the company to make money out of the customer and pretend its going to the staff as some form of "tip".

 

Its simply a tronc device that allows them to pay the worker less than the minimum wage level and then use the tronc pool to make it up to the legal requirement.

 

It was not an issue until 2009 when the first european challenge to the system happened but that failed.. However with the new legislation that occurred in 2014 re taxes the EU is now focusing again in 2015/16 on service charges and tipping and this time they seem to have a name and shame policy in place before they even pass the legistlation in Brussels. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-34146032

 

 

Cruises will be next on the agenda (there already under investigation re taxes) and its obvious that several are starting to change there wording and method before the event.

 

It does leave both the customer and the cruises though in a slight catch 22. Yes I can remove the service charge (your better basically as thinking of this as nothing more than part of the cruise cost/which it is it just makes the initial price look lower) but if I then tip in cash to each server I come across there's an issue that kitchen staff etc are not being tipped and if everyone removed the service charge how would there wage get made up to the correct level.

 

The only solution I can see is to simply pay everyone properly in the first place, rise the cost of the cruise to include the service charge and then leave it to the customer to tip at the bar/table/room etc.

[bmwman]

The DSC just like CC tipping in major chain restaurants is nothing more than a way for the company to make money out of the customer and pretend its going to the staff as some form of "tip".

 

Its simply a tronc device that allows them to pay the worker less than the minimum wage level and then use the tronc pool to make it up to the legal requirement.

 

It was not an issue until 2009 when the first european challenge to the system happened but that failed.. However with the new legislation that occurred in 2014 re taxes the EU is now focusing again in 2015/16 on service charges and tipping and this time they seem to have a name and shame policy in place before they even pass the legistlation in Brussels. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-34146032

 

 

Cruises will be next on the agenda (there already under investigation re taxes) and its obvious that several are starting to change there wording and method before the event.

 

It does leave both the customer and the cruises though in a slight catch 22. Yes I can remove the service charge (your better basically as thinking of this as nothing more than part of the cruise cost/which it is it just makes the initial price look lower) but if I then tip in cash to each server I come across there's an issue that kitchen staff etc are not being tipped and if everyone removed the service charge how would there wage get made up to the correct level.

 

The only solution I can see is to simply pay everyone properly in the first place, rise the cost of the cruise to include the service charge and then leave it to the customer to tip at the bar/table/room etc.

 

Excellent post on this subject. I prepay them its part of the overall cost so no worries for me.

 

Also I expect that there will be other challenges in the UK from consumer law point of view.

 

Someone who never pays the DSC (wrong in our view) would say they are going to ask for the form on his first day on the cruise as it is optional and they are opting not to pay. The reason will be simple in UK t & C its optional.

 

Like it or not NCL will repay and more over the credit card companies will be in a sticky position because the end user will say they did not agree to the charges and all credit cards and then have no choice but to maintain the refund. I can see Chargebacks at the CCC being very busy and NCL accounting teams even busier.

 

Interestingly will a UK booking with prepaid service chargesbe refunded in sterling or US$ the latter being subject to conversion charges

[legion3]

Well all this debate is very interesting but this new system, while slightly more complex, allows them to be removed without having to explain to someone face to face why they are being removed. This may make people feel more free to do so.

 

I wasn't intending to remove them only reduce them to what they were when I booked. But now I might just do so to see if they really take two weeks. :rolleyes:

[mariefisher]

I don't understand how you can dispute this with your CC co. if you are told upfront this fee will be charged to your onboard account. If they did it without telling you then I can understand you have a legit complaint. How do you dispute a charge they told you, you were responsible for? To me it is simple just follow the process and send in the form. Can they deny the refund because they don't like your reason for wanting the refund? I guess that is yet to be seen.

[sparks1093]

Not so fast.

 

This "rebate" situation makes it fairly clear that your DSC does NOT directly land in the hands of the hardworking NCL crew.

 

Why?

 

Because you have 30 days from the end of your cruise to submit the form, and it takes them another 2 weeks to profit it -- which means that 44 days can pass since the cruise before a refund is issued.

 

So how would that work for employees? Do they reach into their wallets and take the "tips" back?

 

Obviously not.

 

This new policy pretty much clarifies exactly what I always suspected:

 

The DSC simply reimburses/subsidizes NCL's payment of employees, and raising it or lowering it does not affect their pay.

 

If you think I'm wrong, explain how they can retroactive remove tips that are opted out of 30 days after the cruise. Some of those employees may not even be working for NCL at that point!

 

They pay it like a draw against commissions is paid.

 

As for the new policy I can't say that I didn't see it coming with the number of people saying they were going to reduce the service charges to get back at NCL for all of the other changes.

[sparks1093]

I definitely agree with that as it would mean the crew would be paid a more fair wage, and it also means that tipping would go back to what it should be - a way to reward exemplary service rather than just an addition to a meager wage.

 

Interestingly, last month I saw this article about a restaurant that dropped tipping and actually saw their profits increase. NCL could learn a lot from that.

 

Restaurant Sees Profits Triple

 

Tipping hasn't that way for decades- when I worked for tips 40 years ago my minimum wage was lower than non-tipped workers, the rest was made up by tips.

[zqvol]

I plan to remove them and use cash . I already paid 18% for the 7 night dinner at specialty restaurants and refuse to double tip. I will dispute the charge on my credit card if they don't immediately remove them on the ship. This new form is awkward and meant to make it hard on the passenger. Shame on NCL .

 

You can dispute all you want, but that doesn't mean that your CC company automatically takes them off forever. They will look into it and then deny your dispute and you will still pay them.

[maywell]

The greatest irony in all of this? If pokerpro5 just enjoyed his trip right now instead of posting from the ship complaining - He wouldn't haven't given out the info for other cruise lines to setup their own means to stop/slow down their own DSC-Removers. One of the few times, where keeping your mouth / not posting to the internet actually helps others, because now the other cruise lines are going to copy NCL's example. Such sweet, sweet karma no matter what. :p:)

[legion3]

The greatest irony in all of this? If pokerpro5 just enjoyed his trip right now instead of posting from the ship complaining - He wouldn't haven't given out the info for other cruise lines to setup their own means to stop/slow down their own DSC-Removers. One of the few times, where keeping your mouth / not posting to the internet actually helps others, because now the other cruise lines are going to copy NCL's example. Such sweet, sweet karma no matter what. :p:)

 

Stop and slow down are two different things.

 

Other cruise lines have not seemed so keen on adopting NCL's stupidity.

 

Will remove the DCS from now on on any cruise line.

[sparks1093]

You're getting caught up in semantics here.

 

I am not a victim, dramatic or otherwise.

 

I will say that I always suspected the DSC was not directly connected to staff pay, but that there was enough doubt prior to 2015 to where I didn't bring it up here.

 

Given the events of this year (the double increase followed by the delayed removal procedure just introduced), I believe this puts very strong evidence that adjusting the DSC up or down will not affect the staff.

 

By "misled", I meant that NCL clearly implies that removing the DSC takes money out of the staff's pocket, though they dance around it just enough to avoid directly saying it.

 

Anyway, it is clear to me that the new CEO is trying to make things more difficult on the "value shopping" clientele of NCL -- DSC removers, last-minute bargain fare shoppers, etc. I can't fault him for that, as his obligation is to the shareholders, not us.

 

This is why I am not removing the DSC. I don't want to be on a list of customers they want to avoid serving.

 

Not replying to this post in particular but to the overall theme- we must remember that NCL is under new management now and what is happening now does not necessarily have anything to do with what happened before. In short NCL may have made significant changes in the way that they pay their crew and we would have no way of knowing that. So even if the service charges no longer go directly to the staff now that doesn't mean that wasn't the case before. The long and the short of it though is this is how the crew gets paid and if enough people remove or adjust the service charges it will eventually impact the crew through lower pay. As I said in my previous post this move does not surprise me given the number of people that threatened to remove the service charges in protest to all of the changes. Evidently enough people did so that it became a real problem that needed to be fixed.

[sparks1093]

The greatest irony in all of this? If pokerpro5 just enjoyed his trip right now instead of posting from the ship complaining - He wouldn't haven't given out the info for other cruise lines to setup their own means to stop/slow down their own DSC-Removers. One of the few times, where keeping your mouth / not posting to the internet actually helps others, because now the other cruise lines are going to copy NCL's example. Such sweet, sweet karma no matter what. :p:)

 

The other cruise lines don't use a service charge model but a tipping one and they designate who gets what portion of the daily tips. All that aside, yes, the cruise lines tend to copy what each other does but generally only those things that the passengers like. They try to avoid the things that tick passengers off. (And I think you need to analyze your definition of "complain"- I don't see pokerpro5 complaining at all but rather just giving people an informative heads up. In reviewing the thread most people seem to be in agreement with the process with few opposing it.)

[legion3]

You can dispute all you want, but that doesn't mean that your CC company automatically takes them off forever. They will look into it and then deny your dispute and you will still pay them.

 

Then do a cash account. Leave the denial to NCL I suppose.

[maywell]

You can dispute all you want, but that doesn't mean that your CC company automatically takes them off forever. They will look into it and then deny your dispute and you will still pay them.

 

Not just that -Its not itemized on a credit card, so one has to example the other charges are well. Plus have to fax / scan the NCL receipt, if one still has it, further screwing oneself over because if you sail on NCL again and same situation with DSC happen again - there's a possibility that the credit card company is going to decline all future refunds because now there's a establish pattern. Then there's the problem with NCL for getting the DSC refund from the Credit Card Company - who knows what they will do if a person who did that the 1st time tries sailing on them again.

 

Its a perfect catch-22 with dealing with DSC-removers - That's means they have to start complaining with Guest Services to make their explanation on the form more credible to get their refund back 2 weeks later. It's wickedly brilliant, if I do dare say so myself. :) Really, need to give whoever came up with that a raise or reward because they deserve it!!

[sparks1093]

Then do a cash account. Leave the denial to NCL I suppose.

 

They will require a cash deposit sufficient to cover the service charge.

[mjkacmom]

If you don't like a company's policies, find another company. If you live in another country, and don't like America's tipping culture, vacation in your own darn country. NCL is a business, and a business needs to turn a profit. I honestly don't care where my DSC is going to - it's part of my fare. What I do care about is NCL having to raise my fare because cheap folks removed the DSC - why am I paying more? Shoplifters also raise prices for the rest of us.

[legion3]

Not just that -Its not itemized on a credit card, so one has to example the other charges are well. Plus have to fax / scan the NCL receipt, if one still has it, further screwing oneself over because if you sail on NCL again and same situation with DSC happen again - there's a possibility that the credit card company is going to decline all future refunds because now there's a establish pattern. Then there's the problem with NCL for getting the DSC refund from the Credit Card Company - who knows what they will do if a person who did that the 1st time tries sailing on them again.

 

Its a perfect catch-22 with dealing with DSC-removers - That's means they have to start complaining with Guest Services to make their explanation on the form more credible to get their refund back 2 weeks later. It's wickedly brilliant, if I do dare say so myself. :) Really, need to give whoever came up with that a raise or reward because they deserve it!!

 

I think you're wrong.

 

Will make removing them easier, no dancing with people just a well thought out written statement saying service was unacceptable.

[sparks1093]

Not just that -Its not itemized on a credit card, so one has to example the other charges are well. Plus have to fax / scan the NCL receipt, if one still has it, further screwing oneself over because if you sail on NCL again and same situation with DSC happen again - there's a possibility that the credit card company is going to decline all future refunds because now there's a establish pattern. Then there's the problem with NCL for getting the DSC refund from the Credit Card Company - who knows what they will do if a person who did that the 1st time tries sailing on them again.

 

Its a perfect catch-22 with dealing with DSC-removers - That's means they have to start complaining with Guest Services to make their explanation on the form more credible to get their refund back 2 weeks later. It's wickedly brilliant, if I do dare say so myself. :) Really, need to give whoever came up with that a raise or reward because they deserve it!!

 

That is an excellent point, making sure that one complains at Guest Services about the service because if there is no record of that there is a possibility that the refund will be denied.

[mjkacmom]

The other cruise lines don't use a service charge model but a tipping one and they designate who gets what portion of the daily tips. All that aside, yes, the cruise lines tend to copy what each other does but generally only those things that the passengers like. They try to avoid the things that tick passengers off. (And I think you need to analyze your definition of "complain"- I don't see pokerpro5 complaining at all but rather just giving people an informative heads up. In reviewing the thread most people seem to be in agreement with the process with few opposing it.)

 

I do believe the other mass market cruise lines have a service charge, as well.

[maywell]

The other cruise lines don't use a service charge model but a tipping one and they designate who gets what portion of the daily tips. All that aside, yes, the cruise lines tend to copy what each other does but generally only those things that the passengers like. They try to avoid the things that tick passengers off. (And I think you need to analyze your definition of "complain"- I don't see pokerpro5 complaining at all but rather just giving people an informative heads up. In reviewing the thread most people seem to be in agreement with the process with few opposing it.)

 

You didn't read Friday's thread that got deleted - this a continuation of it, he got upset that he paid $12 more for UDP. You figure out what happen next. :p

 

Personally, I think it perfect karma for someone reducing DSC over something that has nothing to do with it especially with nickel & dime ploys like specialty dining, but that's just me. :p

 

Also, an automatic tip is still a service charge no matter how you diced it - it just nicer to call it a tip / gratuities than what it really is, which is a service charge. And all the cruise lines use service charges to pay their staff - got to honest to yourself, just because you put bow on it to hide that it quacks, waddles and flies like a duck, doesn't make it a dog, lol.

Edited September 13, 2015 by maywell

[sparks1093]

I think you're wrong.

 

Will make removing them easier, no dancing with people just a well thought out written statement saying service was unacceptable.

 

And if there is no record of you complaining onboard and giving onboard management a chance to rectify the situation? I can see them denying it under those circumstances.

[legion3]

They will require a cash deposit sufficient to cover the service charge.

 

No I understand that but now that $ will be a short term deposit/savings account and nothing more.

 

Removing the DSC can now be handled without worrying about being shamed by anyone, including some on this board.