overloading/overbalancing

[john watson]

Following the tragedy of the whale watching boat in Vancouver Island resulting in five deaths, they now think a contributory cause to the accident was the fact that everyone was on the top deck on the port side at the same time.

 

I've often wondered about this on ships that can hold 4000+ people who all rush to one side to see the marine life.

 

How do the crew deal with this? Obviously altering ballast, but how do they do it so quickly.

 

Interestingly there was a "serious lean" problem that occurred 18 July 2006 on Crown Princess, so obviously its extremely rare and does not happen often. It happened in the Atlantic off Port Canaveral and about one hundred people were injured. Basically it was an incident similar to driving a car at speed the putting on a lot of steering lock. All drivers have done this to a greater or lesser degree and clearly we know what happens. The incident is documented on YouTube with videos: Heeling Accident on M/V Crown Princess deals with the explanation and official enquiry; Crown Princess incident 1,2,3 etc show the affect it had on passengers and crew at the time.

 

Virtually all new cruise liners built these days are extremely tall with many decks and sail with a very shallow draught to get into as many ports as practical. They have water ballast tanks to make them sit lower in the water and give a steadier ride but captains are discouraged from overdoing this as it burns extra fuel.

 

Regards John

Edited October 29, 2015 by john watson

[Ferry Beach Kayaker]

You do have a talent for finding sad stories. Perhaps cruising is not for you seeing that you have ongoing safety concerns.

 

What we learned in kindergarten ...play nice, if you can't say something nice about a person, remain quiet. I feel very sad when I see someone respond with a negative personal attack to someone's comment or question.

[Nitemare]

It's not an "excuse" - it is, however, a rational and reasonably likely contributing factor. Over two tons of human weight suddenly moving to one side, combined with a wave hitting the other, on a poorly ballasted boat, is a recipe for disaster.

 

Combined with a wave on the other side, yes, but that factor had not been mentioned here when I posted my response.

[sparks1093]

What we learned in kindergarten ...play nice, if you can't say something nice about a person, remain quiet. I feel very sad when I see someone respond with a negative personal attack to someone's comment or question.

 

I've seen a lot of personal attacks on CC since I've been a member but that seemed like more of an observation than anything else. Of course that's just my observation and is not to be taken personally;).

[chengkp75]

Interestingly there was a "serious lean" problem that occurred 18 July 2006 on Crown Princess, so obviously its extremely rare and does not happen often. It happened in the Atlantic off Port Canaveral and about one hundred people were injured. Basically it was an incident similar to driving a car at speed the putting on a lot of steering lock. All drivers have done this to a greater or lesser degree and clearly we know what happens. The incident is documented on YouTube with videos: Heeling Accident on M/V Crown Princess deals with the explanation and official enquiry; Crown Princess incident 1,2,3 etc show the affect it had on passengers and crew at the time.

 

Virtually all new cruise liners built these days are extremely tall with many decks and sail with a very shallow draught to get into as many ports as practical. They have water ballast tanks to make them sit lower in the water and give a steadier ride but captains are discouraged from overdoing this as it burns extra fuel.

 

Regards John

 

The Norwegian Sky had a similar incident back in 2002-2003. The helm was put hard over while at sea speed, and the ship heeled over about 35*. Over a hundred passengers were disembarked to hospital in Vancouver. There was another Princess ship that heeled over from too much helm down in New Zealand last year. This is a common happening, and even at slower speeds, too much helm can cause a turn induced heel, and I've answered some CC posters about photos they have of ships will visible heel. Non-azipod ships tend to have "Becker" rudders, which have a trim tab on the trailing edge, much like an airplane's aileron, which provides lift in the horizontal plane in the direction the stern needs to go. These rudders improve steering performance at low speed, like when docking, but cause excessive heeling when at speed. This is why cruise ships do not do "Williamson turns" when a person goes overboard. These turns require full helm, so everyone onboard would be thrown to the deck.

 

Cruise ships really don't have that shallow a draft, most are around 8-11 meters, which is average for merchant ships. Because cruise ships don't change the amount of "cargo" (humans, food, fuel) all that much, they don't really have much in the way of ballast tanks, and those they do have are normally kept half full to allow ballast to be shifted for wind heel. Potable water is far more commonly used to correct heel than ballast water, truth be told.

[babs135]

What we learned in kindergarten ...play nice, if you can't say something nice about a person, remain quiet. I feel very sad when I see someone respond with a negative personal attack to someone's comment or question.

 

I've seen a lot of personal attacks on CC since I've been a member but that seemed like more of an observation than anything else. Of course that's just my observation and is not to be taken personally;).

 

I took the comment in the spirit in which I hoped it was intended- with tongue in cheek and that is why I didn't reply at the time. It just so happens that my last few posts/threads have been on the serious side, ie 'man overboard' and babies born under difficult circumstances and I think that's why the comment was made.

 

I shall endeavour to start an amusing thread when I can think of one:D

 

(sorry to have gone off topic)

[dsrdsrdsr]

I too have wondered about not only the safety but that life preservers are not warned.

 

My heart goes out. This was a tragedy.

 

Keith

 

If you're in a kayak, you wear a lifejacket; if you're on a 4,000 passenger ship, you don't. It's a matter of where the dividing line is. It would be unusual to wear a lifejacket on a 50-passenger boat, in my experience. (Children too young to be trusted being exceptions.)

[Putterdude]

A shift of passengers is not going impact a 100,000 ton cruise ship. Sadly it seems that 6 passengers of the ill fated whale watching excursion have died, there was an Australian passenger that has not been found and has deemed to have perished. As for wearing life jackets, this was a 66 ft vessel, larger than your typical ships tender....do we wear life jackets on in a tender, should the folks who died in this summer's been wearing parachutes? Sorry folks this horrible accident was the result of a rouge wave not the fact that spectators were on one side of the boat.

[john watson]

As far as "overbalancing", I'm not sure that's possible or even a word. Wouldn't a vessel be either balanced or unbalanced?

 

Roz

 

Overbalancing; is a word which relates to falling or toppling over as a result of loss of balance. It is more often used by British people when speaking English whereas when American people speak English; should they use this word, it would more likely be in a different context.

 

Putterdude's; rouge wave, is difficult to understand, do you have a take on that?

 

Regards John

Edited October 30, 2015 by john watson

[Roz]

John,

 

Thanks for the explanation. As someone once said, we are 2 countries divided by a common language. :D

 

Rogue wave - According to Wikipedia, "rogue waves (also known as freak waves, monster waves, episodic waves, killer waves, extreme waves, and abnormal waves) are relatively large and spontaneous surface waves that occur far out in open water, and are a threat even to large ships and ocean liners." It goes on to say that they're different than tidal waves or tsunamis.

 

A few yrs. back a Norwegian ship was the victim of a rogue wave. In Victoria, I can't say that the boat was far out in open water.

 

Roz

[Putterdude]

Thanks for the providing the definition of a rogue wave and that is what is believed to have caused the capsize, however in today's paper there is speculation that the additions that were made to the superstructure of the vessels could have also been a contributing factor. These modifications were made some 20 years ago and the vessel has operated without incident but nonetheless a factor that the Canadian TSB will be looking into.

 

 

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/metro/tofino+tragedy+boat+additions+have+affected+stability/11478657/story.html

[john watson]

John,

 

Thanks for the explanation. As someone once said, we are 2 countries divided by a common language. :D

 

Rogue wave - According to Wikipedia, "rogue waves (also known as freak waves, monster waves, episodic waves, killer waves, extreme waves, and abnormal waves) are relatively large and spontaneous surface waves that occur far out in open water, and are a threat even to large ships and ocean liners." It goes on to say that they're different than tidal waves or tsunamis.

 

A few yrs. back a Norwegian ship was the victim of a rogue wave. In Victoria, I can't say that the boat was far out in open water.

 

Roz

 

I can see that rogue waves could easily be a contributing factor in this type of incident. I was looking in pedantic detail at putterdude's analysis of it being a rouge wave, posting#33. According to the dictionary I have consulted on line; it is a red powder or cream used in cosmetics for colouring cheek or lips.

 

Regards John

Edited October 30, 2015 by john watson

[john watson]

I had a look on YouTube as the link on that Vancouver Sun news clip gave no sound on my computer. I searched for "Leviathan II boat" and there are several clips of varying length, the longest being a bit too biblical and political. However if you go for the one which is 6.07 long lots of good information is on it. It has the title "5 confirmed dead after whale watching vessel sank off the coast of Tofino". Details are given on the format of this type of excursion is like and the different types of boat doing it and finally shows the Tofino General Hospital where survivors were treated. A couple of additional possibilities were also muted sunken logs or physical contact with a whale.

 

Regards John

Edited October 30, 2015 by john watson

[dsrdsrdsr]

A couple of additional possibilities were also muted sunken logs or physical contact with a whale.

 

Regards John

 

Nice. Calling up a rouge wave, and then turning the sound off on Youtube. :D I wouldn't normally call attention to it, but when you lay yourself as wide open as that ...

 

(Mooted, for future reference.)

[Putterdude]

My error in misspelling rogue but anyone who has any maritime knowledge would have recognized the error. Mr. Watson's attempt to add anything meaningful about a tragedy that occurred on the extreme west coast of Canada is about as profound as me commenting on a maritime tragedy off Southampton and I have been there several times which is likely more than Mr. Watson has been to Tofino. However, as he has such a strong interest in the Leviathan II, I am happy to provide a link to the vessel's Transport Canada's registration.

 

http://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/Saf-Sec-Sur/4/vrqs-srib/eng/vessel-registrations/details/800190

[cruiseryyc]

John,

 

In Victoria, I can't say that the boat was far out in open water.

 

Roz

 

Well the boat wasn't anywhere near Victoria but off the west coast of Tofino, five hours north of Victoria. And yes even though it was close to land, it was still in open water where the currents can be quite strong and roque waves can happen.

[john watson]

Nice. Calling up a rouge wave, and then turning the sound off on Youtube. :D I wouldn't normally call attention to it, but when you lay yourself as wide open as that ...

 

(Mooted, for future reference.)

 

Good one; dsrdsrdsr gave me a laugh, obviously slightly embarrassed.

 

Regards John