Grand Theft by Celebrity Employees Follow Up

[Cuizer2]

3 things never leave our sides, my jewelry, meds(in my carry on big bag) and Hubby's tech equipment in his backpack...no worries, I trust no one.:cool:

 

Apparently the OP realizes the mistake and has been raked over the coals many times on CC. Is it really necessary to cook the OP some more over this?

 

Try to remember that the OP is the victim here and treat the OP with at least some empathy.

[Cuizer2]

You hit the nail on the head. This was the last sailing for that crew before their 4 month break. (Confirmed by Guest Relations Manager and Hotel Director.) The perpetrators were trying to make a big score before they left.

 

There is some language in their contract that they are not responsible for theft. We all agree to it by purchasing a cruise from them. My attorney has advised me though that due to the scope and magnitude of this case, as well as the emotional impact it had on my wife there is a case for negligence. my wife was in tears and had to pop Xanax to keep from hyperventilating. I really didn't want to go the legal route but Celebrity has left me with no choice.

 

I doubt that Celebrity is going to escape liability for the actions of its employees simply because of a clause in a contract. If the law holds Celebrity responsible for the actions of its employees, then that contract provision will not help Celebrity.

[Cuizer2]

I have some slight misgivings about the demands made by OP. Hopefully, the OP has learned a valuable lesson about safeguarding his valuables. There is some contributory negligence on his part and therefore I'm not sure why he believes that he is entitled to a partial refund/ credit. I doubt Celebrity will be forthcoming with such a credit. Hopefully, the OP will be made whole and receive a check so he can replace the headphones and put this behind him.

 

Having been in a dispute with cruise line before, you may want to reach out to their general counsel's office. In my dispute, I tried working through customer services but that was a dead end. They lacked decision-making authority and the GC's office resolved the dispute within a couple of days.

 

I disagree with your blame the victim reasoning. Putting a valuable through security is not contributory or comparative negligence. The OP did nothing wrong. In my opinion Celebrity is responsible based on the doctrine of respondeat superior.

[Cuizer2]

I emailed them earlier today with what specifically I would like them to do. It wouldn't be appropriate to put it here. I can see everybody telling me I should have either asked for more or less and that's not something I have the desire to deal with.

 

You got that right!

[az_tchr]

To the best of my knowledge employees sign a contract for x number of months and thus are technically independent contractors and not employees.

 

Since the people on board are most likely to be contract employees, respondeat superior would not apply. Also what none of us knows is the security part of Celebrity or is the entire area contracted out? The good part of this is the theft is on USA jurisdiction and not on the high seas.

 

I would suggest to the OP that an email is not likely to be of much help. A written letter(s) and repeated phone calls (taking names each time) will be more likely to get a positive response.

[Cuizer2]

To the best of my knowledge employees sign a contract for x number of months and thus are technically independent contractors and not employees.

 

Since the people on board are most likely to be contract employees, respondeat superior would not apply. Also what none of us knows is the security part of Celebrity or is the entire area contracted out? The good part of this is the theft is on USA jurisdiction and not on the high seas.

 

I would suggest to the OP that an email is not likely to be of much help. A written letter(s) and repeated phone calls (taking names each time) will be more likely to get a positive response.

 

If the crew are truly independent contractors, then respondeat superior would not apply. However, the definition of employee vs. independent contractor has been litigated many times. Who sets the work hours? Does the crew bring their own tools? Are taxes taken out of the paychecks? I know there are other questions and there are blurry lines involved.

Edited December 16, 2015 by Cuizer2

[waterbug123]

Also, I've contacted a few attorneys and they are salivating at the opportunity to pursue a potential class action suit against X for their negligence in the matter.

 

That surprises me. I think you said there were 90 victims? I can't imagine that the value of what was lost is worth the huge amount of legal bills that would be generated in a class action lawsuit. Sure, there may have been negligence so in theory the lawyers could go after X for punitive damages or something like that, but keep in mind that no one was physically hurt here. The huge class action payouts come when there has been physical injury of some sort, typically by hundreds if not thousands of people. That's not the case here. And as someone said, the ones who win big in a class action lawsuit are the lawyers...not the victims! Is the cost of an ipad cover and some headphones really worth your participation in a case that will make some lawyers a bunch of money?

[Cuizer2]

That surprises me. I think you said there were 90 victims? I can't imagine that the value of what was lost is worth the huge amount of legal bills that would be generated in a class action lawsuit. Sure, there may have been negligence so in theory the lawyers could go after X for punitive damages or something like that, but keep in mind that no one was physically hurt here. The huge class action payouts come when there has been physical injury of some sort, typically by hundreds if not thousands of people. That's not the case here. And as someone said, the ones who win big in a class action lawsuit are the lawyers...not the victims! Is the cost of an ipad cover and some headphones really worth your participation in a case that will make some lawyers a bunch of money?

 

You don't collect punitive damages for simple negligence. There is nothing here to indicate that if Celebrity is legally responsible that it is anything more than just simple negligence.

 

Also, I would not be surprised if the contract includes a waiver from class action lawsuits. However, that is easy to get around, just include all 90 people by name. Those passengers that did not suffer a theft would have no justification for joining the lawsuit anyway.

[Swank803]

You don't collect punitive damages for simple negligence. There is nothing here to indicate that if Celebrity is legally responsible that it is anything more than just simple negligence.

 

Also, I would not be surprised if the contract includes a waiver from class action lawsuits. However, that is easy to get around, just include all 90 people by name. Those passengers that did not suffer a theft would have no justification for joining the lawsuit anyway.

 

To clarify, I did not say there were 90 victims. I said there were 90 recovered items and I know that some items were not recovered or were confirmed destroyed by the PD. The total number of victims is unknown to me at this time, although I do know it is at least three groups of passengers. Considering the number of items involved I would think it is much more considering the targeted items were electronic in nature and I can't imagine any single person having more than a half dozen electronic items with them. Class action might not be the way to go here, that's something I'm still discussing with attorneys. I do appreciate everyone's input here as well.

 

I see your point about no physical harm being done, however, there is an emotional aspect to this. My wife was in tears after our first meeting with the Deputy Director of Security and had to pop some Xanax to get calmed down. She was pretty distraught for the remainder of the trip. Granted, proving emotional distress is harder than physical injury, there was damage done nonetheless. Again, just an avenue that I am discussing with my attorneys.

 

I really hate that I've have to go to these lengths to get a resolution. It probably would be much better for my mental health and blood pressure to just write off the loss and chalk it up to a lesson learned. Unfortunately, I feel that my wife and I have been wronged here and that is something I cannot tolerate. I have been polite and as helpful as possible to Celebrity in dealing with this matter and aiding their investigation and they essentially could care less about what happened to my wife and I on board their vessel. They had the chance to salvage the situation, and keep me as a customer. Too bad they blew it. They also lost my in-laws as customers. They cruised X twice a year and have Elite Plus status. I'm sure losing their business is going to sting much more than anything I ever wanted them to do for me.

Edited December 16, 2015 by Swank803

[dodger1964]

I would be mad also (so it's easy for me to say!), but if it was me, I would do just what you say and "walk away".

 

I guess if you want to pay your "attorney's" and relive the frustrations, power to you, but I'm assuming to get any kind of satisfaction will cost you plenty, in money and mind!

 

Sorry for you ordeal, bite the bullet and walk away.

 

IMHO!!

 

Good Luck in your endeavor, whatever you chose.

[az_tchr]

Swank - I presume you live nearby Miami?

 

Also I second what Cuizer2 stated in that the law is not necessarily fair. Have been in situations where the emotional harm is great, but no actual harm done. My wife was hysterical when taken off a plane at gunpoint! by Homeland Security because of suspected explosives in our luggage. Turned out to be reside from tea. Go figure. We missed our flight and spent several hours dealing with hundreds of questions. Eventually were provided first class air passage home and free limo to our house. Still felt abused as you do but truly not worth the anguish to persue anything 400 miles from home.

 

Have you had conversations since your return with Celebrity? If you are nearby I would set up a meeting. Do not know what lengths you have gone, but it truly appears to be questionable if you have a legal claim. Ethical - absolutely yes. Want a guess, probably this had been going on for a while (just no proof as to who)and if X gave you compensation they would be opening up another can of worms. Celebrity like any large company is bureaucratic and it is usually very hard to get to a decision maker. Going the attorney route only benefits the attorney in most situations even if like me you have a daughter who can represent you for free.

 

Losing you as a customer is too bad as it seems you liked Celebrity and the experience. Try to not let one bad apple employee completely destroy your Christmas season. If we had felt the same with our experience we would have never flown with American Airlines again, but a comment by an agent that caused our bag to be tested could have happened anywhere. We simply chose to move on.

[Cuizer2]

To clarify, I did not say there were 90 victims. I said there were 90 recovered items and I know that some items were not recovered or were confirmed destroyed by the PD. The total number of victims is unknown to me at this time, although I do know it is at least three groups of passengers. Considering the number of items involved I would think it is much more considering the targeted items were electronic in nature and I can't imagine any single person having more than a half dozen electronic items with them. Class action might not be the way to go here, that's something I'm still discussing with attorneys. I do appreciate everyone's input here as well.

 

Okay, 90 items means at most 90 victims. IF everyone person had two things stolen, then there would be 45 victims. Now one item could be owned by two or more people, and that would increase the number of victims. Bottom line, this is not what class action lawsuits are made of. For one thing, class action plaintiffs have to suffer similar damages. The person missing a $5,000 camera and the person missing a $500 ipad don't have similar damages. 2000 people getting sick from the Norovirus would be similar (assuming none died).

 

I see your point about no physical harm being done, however, there is an emotional aspect to this. My wife was in tears after our first meeting with the Deputy Director of Security and had to pop some Xanax to get calmed down. She was pretty distraught for the remainder of the trip. Granted, proving emotional distress is harder than physical injury, there was damage done nonetheless. Again, just an avenue that I am discussing with my attorneys.

 

I really hate that I've have to go to these lengths to get a resolution. It probably would be much better for my mental health and blood pressure to just write off the loss and chalk it up to a lesson learned. Unfortunately, I feel that my wife and I have been wronged here and that is something I cannot tolerate. I have been polite and as helpful as possible to Celebrity in dealing with this matter and aiding their investigation and they essentially could care less about what happened to my wife and I on board their vessel. They had the chance to salvage the situation, and keep me as a customer. Too bad they blew it. They also lost my in-laws as customers. They cruised X twice a year and have Elite Plus status. I'm sure losing their business is going to sting much more than anything I ever wanted them to do for me.

 

If you didn't see the stop sign behind the tree and plowed into a school bus killing 20 kids, the injuries would be horrific, but no one would be entitled to punitive damages. It is the actions of the defendant that leads to punitive damages. Granted, a drunk running over someone's tow would not lead to punitive damages either, but drunk killing one person would, while someone who simply didn't see a partially hidden stop sign killing twenty would not.

 

I do believe that you have been put through the ringer. I don't know if Celebrity is legally in the right (if the employees are actually independent contractors Celebrity may have no legal responsibility). But I do believe Celebrity has (in this case) a morally obligation to right the wrong done by people acting on its behalf. However, courts do not judge moral rights. A tort is a civil wrong recognized by the courts. As such, it is possible that Celebrity is not legally responsible, though it might be morally responsible.

Edited December 16, 2015 by Cuizer2

[Suzy Smith]

Thanks to all for your suggestions on how to get this resolved with travel insurance, credit cards, etc. I will look into all of them. Also, I've contacted a few attorneys and they are salivating at the opportunity to pursue a potential class action suit against X for their negligence in the matter.

 

I contacted the Miami NBC station and they got back to me within minutes saying they want to do the story!

 

Coming from from a country where folks are not quick to take legal action, I am fascinated by this thread. I see the OP has joined CC specifically to involve us all in his case (in addition to the attorneys and NBC News) but I don't understand what he hopes to achieve at the end of it all. It seems he was a little careless with his possessions (I think we all know that you should keep any valuables in the your hand luggage when travelling) and four items were lost. Some of the items have now been returned, but a set of headphones and an iPad case are still missing - both of which can be easily replaced. The fact that other passengers have also lost items does not affect the OP's situation, he has still only lost the headphones and the case and surely this is what travel insurance is for? The OP could just submit a claim, get the items replaced and move on. His attorney's fees up to now must surely outweigh the value of the items he has lost.:confused:

 

I can't see how Celebrity is responsible for the actions of the crew, it's not as if X were encouraging them to do it, and as soon as the problem came to light, they took action. It's not exactly an exciting news story - baggage handlers at airports have been known to steal items from cases and this seems to be a similar situation and the kind of story that would only get coverage on a very slow news day.

Edited December 17, 2015 by Suzy Smith

[Christine Frances]

Does anyone know if an obvious insurance claim would also be reimbursed by Celebrity? From what I can see, that would be my first option if this happened to me. Would take police report and send to my ins agency. Not sure what OP wants - cost of goods (Bose headset and iPad covered) or cost plus compensation for "stress" (ie $$$'s). Trying not to negate op's distress but not sure what he is looking for

[Cuizer2]

Coming from from a country where folks are not quick to take legal action, I am fascinated by this thread. I see the OP has joined CC specifically to involve us all in his case (in addition to the attorneys and NBC News) but I don't understand what he hopes to achieve at the end of it all. It seems he was a little careless with his possessions (I think we all know that you should keep any valuables in the your hand luggage when travelling) and four items were lost. Some of the items have now been returned, but a set of headphones and an iPad case are still missing - both of which can be easily replaced. The fact the other passengers have also lost items does not affect the OP's situation, he has still only lost the headphones and the case and surely this is what travel insurance is for? The OP could just submit a claim, get the items replaced and move on. His attorney's fees up to now must surely outweigh the value of the items he has lost.:confused:

 

I can't see how Celebrity is responsible for the actions of the crew, it's not as if X were encouraging them to do it, and as soon as the problem came to light, they took action. It's not exactly an exciting news story - baggage handlers at airports have been known to steal items from cases and this seems to be a similar situation and the kind of story that would only get coverage on a very slow news day.

 

Cultural differences aside, here in the US a company is responsible for the actions of its employees. However, it is possible that the crew are not employees and are independent contractors.

 

In the US there are certain protections for customers. If, at the airport it is known to the airline that its baggage handlers are stealing from the customer's luggage, then the airline is required to take reasonable steps to prevent this. What is reasonable depends on the circumstances.

[Cuizer2]

Does anyone know if an obvious insurance claim would also be reimbursed by Celebrity? From what I can see, that would be my first option if this happened to me. Would take police report and send to my ins agency. Not sure what OP wants - cost of goods (Bose headset and iPad covered) or cost plus compensation for "stress" (ie $$$'s). Trying not to negate op's distress but not sure what he is looking for

 

If Celebrity is unwilling to reimburse its customer, it is not likely that it is going to be willing to reimburse the insurance company that paid for the lost/damaged items.

[hcat]

Kind of creepy to think that someone might be going through luggage of cruisers looking for stuff to steal......maybe they like someones shoes, handbag, pajamas....

 

Shouldn't someone be monitoring the loading and distribution process?

And cabin attendants have pass keys too....who moniors them?

 

We always carry off but wonder how we could carry on,...size limits?

Edited December 17, 2015 by hcat

[Cuizer2]

Kind of creepy to think that someone might be going through luggage of cruisers looking for stuff to steal......maybe they like someones shoes, handbag, pajamas....

 

Sholudn't someone be monitoring the loading and distribution process?

 

We always carry off but wonder how we could carry on,...size limits?

 

Theft is actually quite rare. I've been on 28 cruises and I don't know how many flights. I haven't had anything stolen from my luggage. Meanwhile had some money taken from my home (twice) and had some things stolen out of my car (once). All you can do is try and limit access and insure it.

[Jade13]

If Celebrity reimbursed the cost of the lost goods, Bose headsets (approx. $300.00) and the cost of the iPad case (approx $40.00?), would that be acceptable?

 

I would get a copy of the police report if that is possible.

 

I also want to know how many employees were arrested. We don't know if there were more in this ring. I wonder if it was one group/Nationality?

[az_tchr]

If Celebrity is unwilling to reimburse its customer, it is not likely that it is going to be willing to reimburse the insurance company that paid for the lost/damaged items.

 

Don't think any of us know what the OP is looking for as a resolution. The big issue is the real value of the items is probably under $1000. It is certainly covered under his personal insurance, but probably after the deductible nothing much to collect.

 

Would the TV station in Miami cover it - absolutely as a case about theft by cruise ship security people and encourage people to keep valuables with them. A good one shot TV news item. Again as we know the courts follow the letter of the law and stress and emotional harm are not covered in the case of petty theft (that is what it is where I live for under $1000). The penalty is also simple - restitution and a fine of up to $2000 and 60 days in jail but if restitution is made usually a small fine and in this same the thief would be deported home. That process should get the OP his money returned.

 

Definitely an unfortunate situation and one that only happens occasionally. Agree there are lots of disappearances from cabins, but almost all of those are later "found". The penalty of being thrown off the ship and needing to fly home at your own expense after dealing with the authorities where they are tossed off is a big one. Think about the college students who got crazy on spring break a year ago and were put ashore and arrested in Haiti. Wow!

[DrivesLikeMario]

Kind of creepy to think that someone might be going through luggage of cruisers looking for stuff to steal......maybe they like someones shoes, handbag, pajamas....

 

Shouldn't someone be monitoring the loading and distribution process?

And cabin attendants have pass keys too....who moniors them?

 

We always carry off but wonder how we could carry on,...size limits?

 

YES, it IS creepy. Years ago we had a $10 roll of quarters for the laundry stolen out of our checked bag and someone took a swig of DH's vodka, not bothering to seal it up well when he/she was done but at least he/she got the Ziploc bag zipped tightly. So, I guess that means it was a woman who took a swig. :cool:

[Bo1953]

If Celebrity reimbursed the cost of the lost goods, Bose headsets (approx. $300.00) and the cost of the iPad case (approx $40.00?), would that be acceptable?

 

I would get a copy of the police report if that is possible.

 

I also want to know how many employees were arrested. We don't know if there were more in this ring. I wonder if it was one group/Nationality?

 

 

Not sure knowing what the Nationality would add to understanding the situation?

 

Unless it is an aim to avoid or suspect all individuals of that Nationality in advance of sailing or any other contact?

 

bon voyage....

[teecee60]

 

Maybe threatening to take your story to the media might help.

 

No business wants their dirty laundry aired in print or on TV and X wouldn't want some Geraldo Rivera type running around telling the public that their belongings aren't safe.

 

It would be much cheaper for X to pay you off than risk bad publicity.

 

 

Good suggestion! I contacted the Miami NBC station and they got back to me within minutes saying they want to do the story!

 

I'll post a link to it if it makes it to air or online.

 

 

Did you receive the thousands of dollars in compensation you demanded from Celebrity because you couldn't conduct business on your computer?

 

You have absolutely no idea just how much, all of your numerous posts have made me so very sympathetic to your most unfortunate plight.

Edited December 17, 2015 by teecee60

[seasearider]

For those who didn't read the original posting about this theft there are a few things that need to be added. The OP didn't notice the missing items until Wednesday of his 7 day Reflection cruise. He and his wife had a confrontation with security demanding $2,500 per day for lost business revenue.?. Also he mentioned how rude security was to him and his wife, but as we all know all these meetings are recorded by security cameras so who knows who was rude and who was not. If Celebrity has evidence that this couple was not willing to cooperate with the Miami investigation, good luck to their lawyer.

 

I'm not writing this to be mean spirited, but we only know half the facts. And sorry OP, if you were going to lose $2,500 a day if your laptop got lost, shame on you to put it in a knapsack through multiple layers of security and not notice it to day 4 or 5.

 

Good luck with your lawsuit and for your sake I hope you and your wife were on your best behavior during your meeting with security.

Edited December 17, 2015 by seasearider

[omeinv]

A lot of folks seem o be laboring under the inaccurate impression that a company is responsible for it's employee's actions in all cases. Not at all. this case is a perfect example of where they would not be. The only time a company is responsible for an employee's actions is when that employee is performing the work directed by the company. When an employee engages in criminal conduct - presuming it's not at the company's direction, or with their knowledge - the company is not responsible. There are instances when this shield from liability would not apply. First would be if the company knew of the behavior and did nothing to stop it. Second would be if the behavior was so obviously foreseeable that it was almost certain to occur, and no policies were in place to prevent it. Clearly, as soon as Celebrity became aware of the theft they took all reasonable steps to stop it (involving their own security staff and the government law enforcement agency with jurisdiction). Additionally, it's abundantly clear Celebrity has both policies and procedures in place to prevent theft. it would perhaps be nice to think they have a legal obligation to make someone whole, but in this case they would argue correctly they are also victims of "rogue" employees. Whether an employee is a direct employee or independent contractor would have no bearing. By the way although they have employment contracts, Celebrity's shipboard staff are clearly employees. That being said it's not clear to me if the persons arrested were Celebrity's shipboard crew, or terminal employees. In either case, their employer is still not liable for actions that are A) outside the scope of their assigned duties and B) criminal in nature.

 

Next, I have no idea what the specifics would be in Florida, but it's quite likely the prosecuting authority would discourage Celebrity from offering financial restitution, since suspects have been arrested. Why? Because the victim's (the OP) acceptance of any remuneration would jeopardize the criminal case, as the suspect could validly argue it's now a civil dispute, and that any discrepancy is correctly adjudicated in civil court, as it would be a matter of differing value assessments of the loss.

 

Finally, someone posted about "punitive damages". There are two types of damages in a civil case, compensatory and punitive. Punitive damages are awarded only in a case where the defendants actions are so egregious that the court wants to "teach a lesson". They are extremely rare, and most often occur in cases where someone's civil rights are violated; typically by a government agency. This case would result in compensatory damages in the most extreme possible outcome.

 

Best of luck, but the advice to file a claim with your travel or homeowner's insurance is your best recourse. I see a particular problem with restitution in this case if the perpetrators were ship board employees. They are almost certainly foreign nationals, with no hope of remaining in the US after adjudication of the case, and certainly not working here. Consequently they will be beyond the court's reach if restitution is ordered, and would presumably have no assets to attach. In essence, if you think it's hard to get blood out of a turnip, wait until you try to get it out of a turnip you can neither touch nor influence.

 

Harris

Denver, CO

Edited December 17, 2015 by omeinv