Muster drill difficulties

[Lizzie68]

No, as I said, the company usually gives post approval, if this is allowed in their ISM system. If not, he will need to call the office and get permission beforehand. Either way, he has to file a non-conformity report stating that something was done in violation of the ISM code, but this report can be filed after the fact, stating that approval was made by shore staff in whatever method or timing the ISM code requires. This non-conformity report then starts a long and tedious trek back and forth between various offices ashore and the ship, each person called for in the ISM to comment must make comments/approval before the incident is completed and filed. Each company's ISM code is different, mainly in details, within a broad outline from the IMO.

 

Thank you.

[bshow]

I didn't say the drill wasn't about training...

 

I know; that was tongue in cheek, of course. I'll let you have the last word, except for this:

 

What Topsham was saying, I believe, is that your attitude that there should be nothing anywhere that is mandatory on my vacation is wrong.

 

If that's indeed what Topsham was saying, then you're both wrong. I have no such attitude and you won't find me saying that anywhere. I asked why not make the muster drill voluntary.

 

Cheers!

[bshow]

Thanks Cheng.

 

I have a short fuse with people that do not try to understand the point of Emergency Drills. It is for their own benefit and it is their own sorry backside that will be need saving by someone else!

 

Stephen

 

Sorry to have lit your fuse. So it boils down to you are smart and I am stupid? I understand the "point" of the drills; I challenge their effectiveness. You haven't addressed that at all; you've just called me names.

[sppunk]

Looking forward to Koningsdam's inside musters.

 

;)

[Topsham]

Sorry to have lit your fuse. So it boils down to you are smart and I am stupid? I understand the "point" of the drills; I challenge their effectiveness. You haven't addressed that at all; you've just called me names.

 

 

 

I am not saying that you are stupid. I am saying that you are badly informed on the subject. You can challenge what? Effectiveness of drills? Spend a year reading up on the subject on Safety of Life At Sea and then come back with comments.

[joepeka]

All the commentary about lack of attentiveness at the drills and questioning the effectiveness of them reminds of that Seinfeld episode where George is at a children's birthday party and a fire breaks out (the scenes after the diatribe with the clown):

 

 

I'm wondering how many of those folks who don't feel the drill is necessary or effective would be acting like this in a real on-board emergency? ;)

[Modern Chandris]

I have to say that I find the number of people who cannot withstand the physical excursion of a simple muster drill rather frightening... even on more modern cruise lines, where muster stations are indoors with seats & air conditioning, there are folks who can barely make it up the stairs, or take the elevator ahead of time to avoid the staircases. Anyone who has been trained in field triage/disaster procedures knows that in a true catastrophe, many of those who cannot climb stairs would have to be sacrificed.

 

In a minor disaster, rescuers (in this case the crew & able bodied pax) would help each person regardless of physical ability/disablilty to ensure the best outcome for the individual, however, in a true, major incident, protocol would mean helping those who have the best chance of survival with the least amount intervention... in other words, time, personnel, supplies spent in a way to save as many as possible, rather than helping the few who need the most help. If you haven't been trained in this way, it may seem heartless, but it is what would happen in a true catastrophe.

[bshow]

I am not saying that you are stupid. I am saying that you are badly informed on the subject. You can challenge what? Effectiveness of drills? Spend a year reading up on the subject on Safety of Life At Sea and then come back with comments.

 

Gosh, a year of studying before I'm allowed to comment? Can you save me time and point me to some actual evidence that these drills are as effective as you claim?

 

I'm sure you're familiar with the principle of diminishing returns as applied to risk mitigation. Why should we just accept unquestioningly that the current "one size fits all" implementation of these drills strikes the right balance?

[RuthC]

I have to say that I find the number of people who cannot withstand the physical excursion of a simple muster drill rather frightening... even on more modern cruise lines, where muster stations are indoors with seats & air conditioning, there are folks who can barely make it up the stairs, or take the elevator ahead of time to avoid the staircases. Anyone who has been trained in field triage/disaster procedures knows that in a true catastrophe, many of those who cannot climb stairs would have to be sacrificed.

It was precisely thoughts along that line that went through my head when we had the fire on the Nieuw Amsterdam last fall.

 

I was at dinner, so I was already on the deck where I would have to muster, if it came to that. Would I be able to get an elevator down two flights on my scooter to get my meds, passport, and warm clothes, then get back up two flights? Should I plan to just stay on that deck, and forego my items?

Should I attempt to leave the dining room and get my things now? I knew some fire doors had been closed, as that had been announced, so would it even be possible to get my things in advance?

 

Fortunately, that fire was put out and dinner resumed quickly. But it's something I now consider more often.

One thing, though, is that I am very glad I have been to muster drills, and know what to do, where to go. The more I go to over the years, the better I know the "drill".

[GE Mom]

Although I understand what some of the responders are saying, I am confident that, in the event of a real emergency, folks such as myself would rise to the occasion. In such a situation, there would be no alternative, and we'd all do the best we could.

 

It just makes no sense to me -- as a business practice -- to put normal people through prolonged and severe discomfort (to the point of fainting) without a really compelling reason. You could convey the necessary information much faster and more efficiently. The safety drills on airplanes are a good example. Staying hydrated might be a good strategy, but then I'd have to attend to nature's call (if they let me) and add that discomfort to the rest!

 

Some of what I've learned from this thread are that I'm certainly not the only person who dreads the outdoor muster drill, that there are strategies that can make it a bit easier, and that (maybe) HAL does the drills faster than Carnival did.

Edited January 29, 2016 by GE Mom

[Modern Chandris]

It was precisely thoughts along that line that went through my head when we had the fire on the Nieuw Amsterdam last fall.

 

I was at dinner, so I was already on the deck where I would have to muster, if it came to that. Would I be able to get an elevator down two flights on my scooter to get my meds, passport, and warm clothes, then get back up two flights? Should I plan to just stay on that deck, and forego my items?

Should I attempt to leave the dining room and get my things now? I knew some fire doors had been closed, as that had been announced, so would it even be possible to get my things in advance?

 

Fortunately, that fire was put out and dinner resumed quickly. But it's something I now consider more often.

One thing, though, is that I am very glad I have been to muster drills, and know what to do, where to go. The more I go to over the years, the better I know the "drill".

 

It's interesting, because on other lines, protocol is that if you are in your cabin when you hear the emergency call, you gather up those things, then head to your muster station.. if you are not in your cabin, you head directly to your station, do not stop at go :)

 

I've bought my husband a tiny little aluminum container (its about 1/2 inch long) with a twist lid, picture a thermos the size of the tip of your pinkie, it clips onto a key ring, or onto a belt loop, hand bag, etc. he always has 3 of his asthma pills in it. I'd say if you have medication that's necessary carry 3 or pills with you at all times, you never know when you'll be delayed.

[fire eater]

Brilliant idea for my hubby, too. Thank you!

fe

[81Zoomie]

I have to say that I find the number of people who cannot withstand the physical excursion of a simple muster drill rather frightening... even on more modern cruise lines, where muster stations are indoors with seats & air conditioning, there are folks who can barely make it up the stairs, or take the elevator ahead of time to avoid the staircases. Anyone who has been trained in field triage/disaster procedures knows that in a true catastrophe, many of those who cannot climb stairs would have to be sacrificed.

 

In a minor disaster, rescuers (in this case the crew & able bodied pax) would help each person regardless of physical ability/disablilty to ensure the best outcome for the individual, however, in a true, major incident, protocol would mean helping those who have the best chance of survival with the least amount intervention... in other words, time, personnel, supplies spent in a way to save as many as possible, rather than helping the few who need the most help. If you haven't been trained in this way, it may seem heartless, but it is what would happen in a true catastrophe.

 

It's wonderful that diverse groups of people including the young, old, disabled, impaired, and otherwise healthy people can all relax and travel. Surviving emergency situations depends on a combination of training, skill, luck, location, the help of others, and devine intervention.

 

I recently travelled with my 89 year old mom on the Nieuw Amsterdam. She is a 4 star Mariner and still loves to cruise. Yes, she is mobility challenged. Yes, she understands she might not survive a Concordia like event. However, that is her choice. You may be frightened by what you perceive as a lack of fitness. I am empowered by the tenacity those who overcome challenges demonstrate as they live life to the fullest!

 

On our cruise the muster drill took 40 minutes. We were facing west and it was very warm. We were in the back so Mom could lean against the wall. It was very challenging for her even with her walker. HAL could do a better job of advising passengers (especially those that board with a wheelchair) that there is an accommodation that can be made for those who cannot stand for long periods of time. Only when we asked after the drill were we told she could have gone to passenger services and requested to sit in the atrium. It would be helpful to know where she was expected to go in case of a real emergency if assistance was required. This is a common announcement on other cruise lines.

[syesmar]

Is there any way to better endure this?

 

GE Mom,

 

Now that we no longer have to wear the life jackets, I have done better with the "suffocating feeling" in close quarters. Although I am young, I'm a fainter if I have to stand still for more than a few minutes without support, especially if it's hard to breathe:)

 

I find it helpful to put a damp washcloth on my neck to keep cool. If it's sunny, I'll wear sunglasses. Extending my arms when the line is forming helps a bit to avoid being too "sandwiched". My husband is never too far away in case I need to lean on him. Standing in the front helps me breathe (but I'm short, so it's not an issue). I take something to fan with.

 

Enjoy your cruise!

Edited January 29, 2016 by syesmar

[chengkp75]

It's interesting, because on other lines, protocol is that if you are in your cabin when you hear the emergency call, you gather up those things, then head to your muster station.. if you are not in your cabin, you head directly to your station, do not stop at go :)

 

I've bought my husband a tiny little aluminum container (its about 1/2 inch long) with a twist lid, picture a thermos the size of the tip of your pinkie, it clips onto a key ring, or onto a belt loop, hand bag, etc. he always has 3 of his asthma pills in it. I'd say if you have medication that's necessary carry 3 or pills with you at all times, you never know when you'll be delayed.

 

This is a difference of implementation between lines. HAL's method requires that the signal for passenger muster (step 1 and step 2) be sounded before the other lines would have sounded the signal. It appears that HAL's "step 1" is called at the same time as the "code" message goes out to the crew. Where other lines would continue to deal with the emergency until such time as the on-scene commander advises the Captain that it would be prudent to muster the passengers, HAL has inserted another step in there, to prepare the passengers, and allow them to get essentials and perhaps get warmer clothing. HAL's step 3 would coincide with other lines' signal to proceed to muster, so HAL is just adding an additional layer of safety and getting folks out of the public areas and into their cabins ahead of time. I haven't seen it in action, but it sounds like a sound action plan.

[Topsham]

Gosh, a year of studying before I'm allowed to comment? Can you save me time and point me to some actual evidence that these drills are as effective as you claim?

 

I'm sure you're familiar with the principle of diminishing returns as applied to risk mitigation. Why should we just accept unquestioningly that the current "one size fits all" implementation of these drills strikes the right balance?

 

 

 

In your case... make it TWO years.

 

 

Why don't you just call your local US Coast Guard and ask what they think. Or next cruise... call the Captain and ask him.

 

 

Do you think all of the drills are just for 'fun' and a waste of time? Well, the rest of the maritime industry thinks that is not a waste of time.

[Topsham]

This is a difference of implementation between lines. HAL's method requires that the signal for passenger muster (step 1 and step 2) be sounded before the other lines would have sounded the signal. It appears that HAL's "step 1" is called at the same time as the "code" message goes out to the crew. Where other lines would continue to deal with the emergency until such time as the on-scene commander advises the Captain that it would be prudent to muster the passengers, HAL has inserted another step in there, to prepare the passengers, and allow them to get essentials and perhaps get warmer clothing. HAL's step 3 would coincide with other lines' signal to proceed to muster, so HAL is just adding an additional layer of safety and getting folks out of the public areas and into their cabins ahead of time. I haven't seen it in action, but it sounds like a sound action plan.

 

 

Cheng,

 

Both methods are acceptable. Personally.... I prefer the HAL method.

 

For drill purposes... I want people out on deck. The emergency way not be minor any minor can quickly be major. Out on deck when you are there... if the emergency turns out minor.... then go back and wait inside.

 

CONCORDIA.... major emergency in the first minute. Had they done straight to boat deck everyone might been saved that night. If as they were... they were lucky. Had they mustered inside a lounge.... a lot of time would have been wasted.

 

Stephen

[knittinggirl]

During an actual emergency, the people will be yakking even more. Probably some screaming too. If they've had too much to drink, add impaired judgement to the list.

 

We had a man fall on the way to his muster station. He had a rollator, and tripped over a threshold. They had medical arrive w/ a gurney. That muster lasted 30-45 minutes.

 

People are tired after embarkation, and probably dehydrated too. Drinking alcohol during that afternoon surely doesn't help that situation. I think they should close the bars until after muster. Give out juice instead.

 

I was at dinner, so I was already on the deck where I would have to muster, if it came to that. Would I be able to get an elevator down two flights on my scooter to get my meds, passport, and warm clothes, then get back up two flights? Should I plan to just stay on that deck, and forego my items?

Should I attempt to leave the dining room and get my things now? I knew some fire doors had been closed, as that had been announced, so would it even be possible to get my things in advance?

We often take a weekly pill organizer and take it everywhere w/ us on the ship in a vest pocket. All our safe stuff gets put into a bag, so I can reach in and grab in case of a quick get away.

 

Last year, we had a group of deaf people on the ship, and we found them sitting comfortably in the Centrum during our muster drill. They need to see the interpreter, and standing behind a bunch of people out on deck just won't work.

 

I actually missed muster drill on the Legend of the Seas (Royal Caribbean). I had norovirus on the second leg of a B2B. I called medical and told them about it, saying I didn't know if I could make it through muster w/o vomiting. They told me I should absolutely NOT attend muster, but to come down to medical. After the shots, I returned to my room, and saw four crew at attention in the stairwell, and our room steward hurrying down the hallway at me. I explained the problem, and he ordered me into my room. The lock had a red indicator stuffed into it w/ handwriting on it. Missed both muster and all the make-ups too! DH was ordered to muster and he told crewman w/ the list about me in medical.

Edited January 29, 2016 by knittinggirl

[true45]

Although I understand what some of the responders are saying, I am confident that, in the event of a real emergency, folks such as myself would rise to the occasion. In such a situation, there would be no alternative, and we'd all do the best we could.

 

It just makes no sense to me -- as a business practice -- to put normal people through prolonged and severe discomfort (to the point of fainting) without a really compelling reason. You could convey the necessary information much faster and more efficiently. The safety drills on airplanes are a good example. Staying hydrated might be a good strategy, but then I'd have to attend to nature's call (if they let me) and add that discomfort to the rest!

 

Some of what I've learned from this thread are that I'm certainly not the only person who dreads the outdoor muster drill, that there are strategies that can make it a bit easier, and that (maybe) HAL does the drills faster than Carnival did.

 

 

Makes no sense to me either

And if it needs to conform to rules to have people outside and with life jackets standing tightly to each other in the heat and cold why

On my last several Celebrity sailings we were not required to bring life jackets and they were held inside and it cannot be done on HAL.

[RuthC]

Makes no sense to me either

And if it needs to conform to rules to have people outside and with life jackets standing tightly to each other in the heat and cold why

On my last several Celebrity sailings we were not required to bring life jackets and they were held inside and it cannot be done on HAL.

You do not bring life jackets to muster on HAL.

 

As to why it can't be done on current HAL ships---did you read the explanation? Were the Celebrity ships built with indoor muster in mind?

[knittinggirl]

You do not bring life jackets to muster on HAL.

 

As to why it can't be done on current HAL ships---did you read the explanation? Were the Celebrity ships built with indoor muster in mind?

We've done muster drill inside on Celebrity and Princess. We usually find out where our station is and arrive early while we can still get a seat. We've had muster drill inside once on Royal Caribbean's Freedom Class, and outside on all the rest.

 

I don't understand why they don't move them all inside. We've been on pretty rough water a few times, and I surely wouldn't have wanted to be outside. On our TA, they closed off the promenade where we would have been standing for muster.

Edited January 29, 2016 by knittinggirl

[RuthC]

I don't understand why they don't move them all inside.

You should read (or reread) chengkp75's explanation then.

[Krazy Kruizers]

I usually don't print out our boarding passes until the last few days before we cruise, but yesterday I decided to do them early.

I only print out the first page, but I did noticed on the second page the lifeboat drill or muster drill is now called:

"guest emergency drill".

[bshow]

In your case... make it TWO years.

 

 

Why don't you just call your local US Coast Guard and ask what they think. Or next cruise... call the Captain and ask him.

 

 

Do you think all of the drills are just for 'fun' and a waste of time? Well, the rest of the maritime industry thinks that is not a waste of time.

 

Wow, why all the aggression?

 

Anyway, they are definitely not "just for fun". And yes, they are (mostly) a waste of time.

 

HAND :)

[RuthC]

And yes, they are (mostly) a waste of time.

You must have really hated school fire drills.