service charge

[Elaine5715]

hi

to clear up a point the assurances were given by an NCL cruise consultant not a travel agent,because of those assurances i went ahead and booked with my travel agent.

other cruise lines have never given me a problem with this procedure/check in/register credit card/advise to not include service/gratuities/problem gone.

as i said in earlier post leaving everybody to do what they are happy with.

i wonder why our american friends are so convinced the staff get any of "the service charge " ?

many nations are not of that opinion in fact dear old blighty had a session of "Rip off Britain " solely covering this subject (which included many cruise ship workers) and many customer nationalities.;)

 

Since those tips make up 90% of their wages, yes, they get them in full. These attempts to suggest that cruise lines kept the gratuities/ service charges is ludicrous. The crew would leave such a cruise line and since the crew is quite capable of using the Internet, there would be tons of stories of how NCL ripped them off.

[sparks1093]

Or possibly not, Sparks. ;)

 

Neither the Q&A on NCL's UK website, nor the T&Cs (in which NCL specifically include those Q&A) appear to have been updated since 2014 !!

They refer only to pre-paid service charges being refunded post-cruise.

*Where your service charge has been pre-paid before departure, refunds are not available on board and you must apply for a refund, if applicable, after your return home by writing to our Guest Relations department.

 

Prior to about September last year, NCL's policy was the same as other cruise lines - passengers could adjust or remove the charge on their on-board account.

The charge is confirmed in the t&cs (clause 22) as "discretionary ", and I think NCL would have a hard time persuading an English court that forcibly taking the money and subsequently refunding it could be described as "discretionary".

 

Just as a by-the-by, another FAQ answer on their UK website says "In addition, a suggested gratuity of 18% on drink bills, dining options, which are not inlcuded in the cruise fare and on spa and salon bills will be added automatically and charged to your on-board account."

A suggested 18% gratuity ??? It'd be fun to see their reaction if a passenger declined that suggestion. ;)

 

The t&c's and FAQs are also littered with typos. All very sloppy.

 

Like iheartbda, I doubt - and the OP wouldn't be able to prove - that the NCL rep deliberately lied. They're too inefficient for that. :p

 

What should the OP do to remove the charge?

Simplest would be to not let it spoil the enjoyment of the cruise, allow the charge to remain on the on-board account but afterwards write a very uncomplimentary letter to NCL about their policy, require them to refund, and tell them NCL will never get their custom again.

And in future perhaps do what I do. When choosing a cruise, factor into the ticket prices the differences in service charges & other on-board costs, and an extra allowance in the case of NCL for their well-known nickel & diming, in order to assess the overall value before booking.

 

I have a feeling the OP has different plans ;), but each to their own.

 

JB :)

 

Maybe, not up on how laws work across the pond (and only a layman's knowledge on this side). I do know that a verbal promise here is not sufficient to overcome the contract language. OP might have an easier time going after NCL under the consumer protection laws in the UK but again damages are going to be questionable and probably in the court's view minimal.

[Bobbye]

When did you book this cruise? As many have stated this is a relatively recent change to having to request the refund in writing after the cruise.

[SuiteTraveler]

I doubt you will find many UK hairdressers or waiters who are regularly tipped in Euros. Why would they be? It makes me believe that your knowledge of tipping in the UK is a little sketchy, to say the least. Especially the bit about tipping in a pub, which is pure fantasy - times have changed since the 1600s.

 

And your last sentence is plain nonsense. Do you mean it, or are you on a wind-up?

 

You are correct for tipping within the UK - it is pounds, not Euros. I was being distracted as I wrote that. However, tipping in English speaking cultures originated in the UK and that is indisputable historical fact. Do your own research or speak with a historian who is familiar with UK customs in the 1600's -1800's. I am certain they will confirm this as historical fact. Let us put this subject to bed and not take this thread off subject.

 

OP,

I believe that if you will look at your Guest Ticket Contract - the UK version as I am quoting the USA version below, you will probably see that NCL says:

 

"12. Use of Travel Agent: The Guest agrees that any travel agent utilized by the Guest in connection with the purchase of the cruise or issuance of this Contract, or for any related or incidental air or ground transportation or excursions, is solely the Guest's agent and the Guest shall remain liable to the carrier for the full applicable cruise fare. The Carrier shall not be responsible for any representations, insolvency or other conduct of a travel agent, including but not limited to such agent's failure to remit any portion of the cruise fare to the carrier, or any refund to the Guest. The Guest agrees that receipt of any refunds or notices by the Guest's travel agent, including this Contract, shall constitute receipt by the Guest."

 

Based on the above, NCL is not responsible for anything your travel agent told you in regards to the service charge. This is a recent change and I suppose you can write to NCL corporate after your cruise to complain. I believe that NCL has removed the ability for Guest Services onboard to remove service charges from your bill in their computer system, so complaining onboard will probably get you nowhere and be a waste of your time. Simply write to the corporation and explain that you booked BEFORE the new policy was in place and ask if there is anything they can do to assist you BEFORE your cruise so you can tip in cash onboard. If not, then, only bring cash for tips in the amount that you would normally tip over and above the normal service charges and distribute this as normal and let the service charge stand. After this cruise, move on to another cruise line which has a tipping policy more in line with what you are comfortable with.

[iheartbda]

SuiteTraveler, your highlighted text from the guest ticket contract is all for naught since the OP said the wrong info was not from a TA, it was from an NCL cruise representative.

[sail7seas]

I am sorry there was poor communication with your booking rep regarding tipping but I am even more sorry some cruisers don't wish to tip the crew. They work so hard for those tips. It isn't a hobby. This is how they earn their living and support their families.

 

Perhaps you'll reconsider and not think it such a bad thing to tip the stewards/bar staff who take such good care of your wishes/needs?

 

In any case, have a great cruise.

Edited February 7, 2016 by sail7seas

[iheartbda]

The OP said in post #9 that they always tip. That leads me to believe they want to tip directly in cash. The way NCL has things set up, it is now not possible, or at least difficult, to tip in their preferred way.

[John Bull]

Maybe, not up on how laws work across the pond (and only a layman's knowledge on this side). I do know that a verbal promise here is not sufficient to overcome the contract language. OP might have an easier time going after NCL under the consumer protection laws in the UK but again damages are going to be questionable and probably in the court's view minimal.

 

Hi again, Sparks,

 

In the UK, contracts (and variations of written contracts) can be verbal, with the exception of a few like the sale of land and such contracts as minors are allowed to enter into, like education.

The problem is proving a verbal contract or variation.

 

But that's by-the-by, because

- NCL's own t&c's haven't been updated to allow them to keep the service charge until after the cruise.

- a UK court requires that a complainant give the other party the opportunity to redress the situation before accepting a plaint, so that the court's time isn't wasted. And of course, NCL will redress the situation within a week or two of the end of the cruise - they already accept that.

 

All a bit unnecessary, it's of NCL's making but life's too short to get up-tight about it. ;)

 

JB :)

[Kris74]

Just dont get what is the point of a service charge anyway. If one cant leave it out and it is distributed to workers in a way that one does not actually do anything about, so why cannot it be added to the total price of the cruise and then not force people to pay tips if they dont want to. Just a lot of extra work for the cruiseline and the end result is the same anyway.

 

I mean what is the point of a obligatory tip anyway? The idea of a tip is about paying for great service. If you are forced to pay, why not include it in the bill?

 

The way it is done now does appear that it is a marketing gimmick so that people dont know the full price when they buy the cruise.

[sparks1093]

Hi again, Sparks,

 

In the UK, contracts (and variations of written contracts) can be verbal, with the exception of a few like the sale of land and such contracts as minors are allowed to enter into, like education.

The problem is proving a verbal contract or variation.

 

But that's by-the-by, because

- NCL's own t&c's haven't been updated to allow them to keep the service charge until after the cruise.

- a UK court requires that a complainant give the other party the opportunity to redress the situation before accepting a plaint, so that the court's time isn't wasted. And of course, NCL will redress the situation within a week or two of the end of the cruise - they already accept that.

 

All a bit unnecessary, it's of NCL's making but life's too short to get up-tight about it. ;)

 

JB :)

 

In the US if NCL has provided redress then there is no legal claim, would not be so in the UK? Still sounds like an uphill battle to me no matter how it gets sliced (not that I am unsympathetic to OP's issue because I am, but I see limited options for him).

[John Bull]

In the US if NCL has provided redress then there is no legal claim, would not be so in the UK? Still sounds like an uphill battle to me no matter how it gets sliced (not that I am unsympathetic to OP's issue because I am, but I see limited options for him).

 

That goes beyond my expertise as a barrack-room lawyer ;)

 

As per my post, an English court would require that a complainant attempt to get redress from the provider before applying to the court - by which time NCL will have re-paid the charge.

 

A possible exception would be a test-case, to establish a legal precedent. Mebbe something a rights organisation such as a Trading Standards office might do, though they have bigger fish to fry.

But certainly not worth the grief for a passenger to seek compensation for having a couple of hundred dollars with-held for a week or two.

 

JB :)

[agabbymama]

OP - why do you even want to remove the DSC (Daily Service Charge)? If you tip in cash, the person you tipped has to turn that money over to NCL. THEY DO NOT GET TO KEEP IT.

 

Cruiselines went to the DSC or Hotel Service Charge or whatever each line calls it because folks were stiffing the staff. The last night of the cruise, when the envelopes were passed out, the dining rooms were more than half empty because people were stiffing the staff.

 

Cruiselines have created the model many many years ago. They DO NOT pay a living wage to the employees, but rely on gratuities/Service Charges to the employee, thus not having to include those fees in their profit reports. I don't think that is ever going to change.

 

NCL created the "Freestyle" cruising model and did very well with it, so the other cruiselines soon followed suit with their "Anytime" dining options because it became popular. I fear now that NCL has made it more difficult to stop/change the DSC, that other cruiselines will soon follow suit.

 

And along the same lines, you used to be able to book excursions and they were added to your on-board account. Whereas now most of the cruiselines have gone to "pay when you book" prior to sailing.

 

It's too bad you didn't find this site prior to booking, lots of talk on here about changes to policies and procedures for all the cruiselines.

 

As others have posted, if you can cancel with no penalties, that is what I would do, as I don't think NCL is a good fit for you at this time. Are you even going to enjoy your cruise starting with a sour taste in your mouth???

[NMLady]

hi all

i think you all are missing the point here,1stly i always tip/show my appreciation generously.2ndly this cruise was booked " after specifically asking the question regarding service charge " and being told very clearly by a cruise consultant that his charge would be taken off my account when settling onboard.

3rdly i do not think like others on here that the reason has anything to do with staff tips,in my opinion it is done to make the cruise appear cheaper thereby attracting more clients if not why go through the rigmeroll of paying,filling in forms and then waiting for your own money back? It could be as other cruise lines,when checking in and registering your credit card you simply request this charge not to be put on your account thereby letting people do what they feel happy with.

for the post that asked this line is ncl and ironically the very 1st cruise i had with them on ss norway was never a problem with this procedure.

For me this is a matter of principle being told one thing prior to booking and something different on payment,bit like ordering a car and then being told pay extra for the wheels after you have paid.

cheers

 

NCL used to let you opt out of service charges aboard ship so what you were told at the time was true. But since then the procedure was changed by NCL so that now if you want to opt out of the service charge/gratuities you must go to the front desk and get a form which you email AFTER your cruise and eventually get a refund. NCL made many changes recently and this was one of them. Since they still let you opt out of the service charge the contract has not changed, just the method.

Edited February 7, 2016 by NMLady

[SteveH2508]

OP is from the UK so cannot cancel without penalty.

[John Bull]

............................. They DO NOT pay a living wage to the employees, but rely on gratuities/Service Charges to the employee, thus not having to include those fees in their profit reports....................

Err, no. That's not logical. Relying on a service charge to pay wages doesn't affect their profit reports.

 

...................... The way it is done now does appear that it is a marketing gimmick so that people dont know the full price when they buy the cruise.

That's much more likely to be the reason. ;)

 

JB :)

[navybankerteacher]

hi

 

i wonder why our american friends are so convinced the staff get any of "the service charge " ?

 

It's probably because we are not as infected with conspiracy theories which might be used to justify attempts to stiff the staff.

 

I am inclined to doubt:

 

a) that you were actually clearly and specifically advised by an NCL employee that you could remove the service charge strictly by asking at the desk, and

 

b) that you honestly felt that removing a service charge (strictly to save yourself some money - and not for cause) was anything other than chiseling.

[navybankerteacher]

Just dont get what is the point of a service charge anyway. If one cant leave it out and it is distributed to workers in a way that one does not actually do anything about, so why cannot it be added to the total price of the cruise and then not force people to pay tips if they dont want to. Just a lot of extra work for the cruiseline and the end result is the same anyway.

 

I mean what is the point of a obligatory tip anyway? The idea of a tip is about paying for great service. If you are forced to pay, why not include it in the bill?

 

The way it is done now does appear that it is a marketing gimmick so that people dont know the full price when they buy the cruise.

 

As long as it is removable - even after the fact - it is not truly obligatory.

 

Sure - NCL wants to present as inexpensive a product as possible - so it is a marketing gimmick -- but everyone (including politicians in the US and UK) make a practice of hiding the true cost of what they purvey.

[sail7seas]

The OP said in post #9 that they always tip. That leads me to believe they want to tip directly in cash. The way NCL has things set up, it is now not possible, or at least difficult, to tip in their preferred way.

 

Yah, I saw that.

 

I read often from those who wish to remove auto tips they will be spreading around all those tips on their own. We can all form our own opinion about that.

 

[iheartbda]

Yah, I saw that.

 

I read often from those who wish to remove auto tips they will be spreading around all those tips on their own. We can all form our own opinion about that.

 

Yes, and they always tip VERY generously.:rolleyes:

[kitty9]

I don't know what your conspiracy theory program said, but it is false when it comes to staff getting the service charge. I personally know crew members on cruise ships and they most definitely DO get their service charges/tips after every cruise. I just get the feeling that you just don't want to pay the service charge, when in the scheme of things, isn't all that much money when compared to the cruise fare. I just don't get why you refuse to provide a tip? If that's the problem, go on a cruise line where the service charge/gratuity is in the cruise fare. But, you'll pay four times the amount that you paid on NCL.

[cbr663]

As long as it is removable - even after the fact - it is not truly obligatory.

 

Then NCL should be more transparent to its practices. For me, to opt out of something implies that I will not be charged for the item. NCL's practice is actually to charge you and require that you request a refund after you have cruised.

 

For me, opt out and refundable have two very different meanings.

[98Charlie]

OP-

 

You have already stated that you tip generously. I have absolutely no reason to doubt you. It really seems that your argument is with the cruise consultant and possibly the cruise line for hiring and training inadequacies. I can certainly agree with being upset when a representative of any business says one thing only to find out that it is incorrect.

 

I would suggest that you talk to the cabin steward and wait staff on your cruise about the disbursement of the service charge. If they agree with what you have heard on "Rip Off Britain" go to the service desk and get the necessary paperwork for a refund.

 

On the other hand if they satisfy your curiosity about the charge you leave it in place and consider the job done.

 

Personally I would consider it a waste of my time to get worked up over the situation at this point. I would have better things to do such as daydream about my coming cruise.

 

Just my 2¢ worth.

 

Charlie

[navybankerteacher]

Then NCL should be more transparent to its practices. For me, to opt out of something implies that I will not be charged for the item. NCL's practice is actually to charge you and require that you request a refund after you have cruised.

 

For me, opt out and refundable have two very different meanings.

 

They are simply different ways of arriving at the same end: if you wind up not having paid the service charge because you have followed the, admittedly cumbersome, procedure you have effectively opted out.

 

It is easy to understand why NCL imposed the cumbersome procedure: when it was very easy for a passenger to show up at the customer service desk and say: "don't apply the service charge" very many passengers did just that. By making the passengers take the extra step - and explain - they imposed a not-unreasonable burden upon those passengers who wished to save themselves the cost of paying what is clearly part of the total cost.

[Velvetwater]

I'm not going to get into the tipping UK/US debate as far as practice/cruises goes. My opinion is well documented if you look at my posts. OP- do what you want to do.

 

But Suitetravler...your arguement for us starting 'tipping' using history is completely flawed and flippant.

 

Firstly early tipping/tipping around the world is very different to the US 'I have to give to give tips because of low wages'. We started tipping to be gracious and as a little extra for hard workers, we certainly did not start doing it because we thought those who served us had such a low wage we needed to supplement it. It was crafty business owners that realised they could. Do not associate your service charge/gratuity business model of the US with the kindness of ancestors. You need to blame the greedy owners that started off the trend in your parts. It is because of this going out for a meal/drinks in the US will cost you more wherever you go.

 

We do indeed tip in Europe (although not in Euros if in the UK et al ;)) and it is indeed around 10% and more if service is excellent. If the service is poor we will not tip at all and we certainly do not tip in casual cafe greasy spoon type places or pubs. Every Brit that goes on holiday knows about tipping and we do not pretend 'not to get it' its just we are dumbfounded that we feel pressured to because the company has not provided good wages for its staff. It is one of the downsides of cruising (and holidaying in the US) unfortunately but thats what I have to do. The people who have served me on cruises have always got their grats (except the steward that lost a rather sentimental item of my clothing).

 

Since I joined these forums it has always baffled me that Americans have a go at people from the rest of the world for 'stiffing the staff' instead of having a go at the Cruise lines/businesses. If they paid proper wages then none of these arguements would exist. Carnival aus has already proved they can offer amazing prices/service and have grats included (as well as others) so it can be done.

 

....and breathe.

[Velvetwater]

I forgot to add this article to my post, its a long winded account with similar points to mine and some history about US laws that were passed to help with low wage/high tipping stuff if anyone is interested:

 

http://kitchenette.jezebel.com/the-gratuitous-injustice-of-american-tipping-culture-1608009017