Senator Nelson calls for NTSB to investigate Anthems Feb 7 sailing.

[Clarea]

This is an election year for those in Congress.

But not for Bill Nelson. However, he does seem to be working on his war chest for the 2018 election.

[loubetti]

Many, many years ago, a very wise man told me something that at first, I laughed at. He said 1 in 4 people are stupid. I've come to learn that statement is very true. By stupid, he didn't mean uninformed or not knowledgeable on certain things; he meant totally incapable of sense and reason. And unfortunately, that 1 person tends to get the most attention. We all know who those people are on these threads. So now that I know it to be true, I know to cherish the other 3 people who have at least an ounce of reason and/or humility in their being.

 

Off my soapbox. I stick around because I do enjoy adding facts to these conversations. The 3 out of 4 understand the facts....or do eventually. The other 1 never will but hey, that brings up another popular saying...."you can't fix stupid." ;):D

 

Well, Paul, you essentially took the words right out of my mouth.

 

If you look at the poll results above, they essentially prove your 1 in 4 statement.

 

I had mentioned in another thread elsewhere about this incident that there are some folks who should probably not go on cruise ships or any ships, and some of the commentary expressed here proves my point.

 

I think this was a rude awakening for some, and it might be best for those who can't handle it to stick to other forms of travel / transportation.

[jmckay331]

I super love the 1 in 4 is stupid comment. I'm totally stealing that one... Because I hear sharing is stealing (tongue in cheek) any way back to reading and avoiding my MBA homework...This is like watching a soap opera, tela novella, or lifetime drama all rolled into one.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Forums mobile app

[foxgoodrich]

I was there yesterday, it's not a nice place, I do not like going there and I don't wish it on anyone. Don't ask. Now the issue is filed under X. :)

 

Aquahound & chengkp75 now that I know more about you guys and what you do I have total respect for what you do and your knowledge of these issues. You know dam well that people will argue with you and question your knowledge about these issues (and many more issues to come), there minds are set and they focus on always wanting to be on top and more knowing than everyone else. Why do you guys even waist your time and effort?

 

No matter, Seaworthy, I'm glad you have come out of the darkness. And you'll enjoy 'knowing' Aquahound and Cheng75kp. I lurked for years on the Concordia Costa thread that followed the parbuckling, refloating, and towing of Concordia. All the mariners posting there were very patient about sharing their knowledge with those of us who were merely spectators.

 

I first 'met' Paul here on CC 5 or so years ago with his thread about a found digital camera. I learned that he is a crackerjack investigator!

 

Aquahound found the camera washed up on the beach in Key West. Miraculously pics and video had survived its months long ocean voyage. There were pics of a family and kids. A school event. Scuba diving video in Aruba. But no name or identifying info, just 'clues' in some of the pictures. Then there was a video filmed by a sea turtle who tried to eat the camera, managed to turn it on and get the strap hooked on his neck, and he swam around taking video for awhile. Then the turtle ditched the camera and it took video of the sea until its battery died. Paul posted some of the pics and the sea turtle video and got a few leads from folks here on CC. He followed all the clues and found the owner in Aruba and returned the camera!

 

That was one of my all time favorite threads here on CC.

Judy

Edited February 10, 2016 by foxgoodrich

[chengkp75]

Just this past fall a large container ship was lost with all hands near the Bahamas in a hurricane because it lost its power. Ever here of a cruise ship losing power? Of course you have. What then? Bad move RCCL.

 

As I said on another thread where the El Faro was brought up, don't even go there. I knew and worked with one of the officers on the El Faro who was lost, so I have a personal connection to it, and hence I have collected a lot more facts than most evening news bites provide.

 

Even a foreign cruise ship built 10-15 years ago was built to a higher standard than the El Faro, which was built to the strict USCG regulations of the '70's. And the root cause of the sinking was not that the ship lost power, but that the cargo broke loose and caused the ship to list, which then caused the boilers to quit.

 

Cruise ships don't use boilers for propulsion, so even a severely listing diesel electric plant will continue to work. The El Faro had one engine room, while cruise ships have at least two, and the most modern ones, built since 2010, like the Anthem, are designed to meet the IMO's Safe Return to Port statutes that came about due to the Carnival Splendor fire, and which require that even complete loss of one engine room, or one propulsion room, will not affect the others in any way, and the ship will still have power. Even older ships, like Carnival's Destiny and Concordia class ships have been retrofitted to more closely meet the Safe Return requirements.

 

And you only need to look at the SS Badger State during Vietnam to see that a ship with no power, with shifted cargo creating a list, and with damage to the hull caused by bombs rolling out through the hull plating, can withstand days of typhoon weather, to the point that she had to be sunk by gunfire as a hazard to navigation.

[RDC1]

While I'm sure that the incident will be discussed at the USCG Cruise Ship National Center of Expertise, without the ability to collect data from the ship or crew, and without being able to enforce any finding or recommendation, not sure what would come of it. The only avenue the USCG has in a situation like this would be to petition to the IMO for review of any applicable regulation, and then if approved by the IMO, the member nations have to become signatory. And really, what is it that folks want from this? A regulation that "if a storm is of such and such magnitude, and such and such distance from the ship, with such and such forcasted track and strength, the Captain must remain in port"? Because that is sure what it sounds like (not saying you in particular).

 

What I would be looking for is:

 

1. Was the source of weather information consistent with other reporting sources. In other words what source did the ship use and was it the best possible or were there other sources that should have also been considered.

 

2. What damage did the ship receive. Should there be changes in ship design in the future. For example some of the most threatening things people have described have been potential injuries from things flying around in the cabins, including cabinet doors breaking. Should cruise ships have a foul weather latching mechanism on such doors? Somthing that would hold them closed, such as a strap or latch. If cabins are the place of refuge, not a major cost to prevent potential injuries.

 

Not major items, but certainly examination of process and other lessons learned.

 

Or to put it another way would you expect the cruise line and Captain, faced with the exact same situation tomorrow, do exactly the same thing. Or are there lessons that can be learned and communicated to the rest of the industry, even if informally.

Edited February 10, 2016 by RDC1

[chengkp75]

What I would be looking for is:

 

1. Was the source of weather information consistent with other reporting sources. In other words what source did the ship use and was it the best possible or were there other sources that should have also been considered.

 

2. What damage did the ship receive. Should there be changes in ship design in the future. For example some of the most threatening things people have described have been potential injuries from things flying around in the cabins, including cabinet doors breaking. Should cruise ships have a foul weather latching mechanism on such doors? Somthing that would hold them closed, such as a strap or latch. If cabins are the place of refuge, not a major cost to prevent potential injuries.

 

Not major items, but certainly examination of process and other lessons learned.

 

Perfectly reasonable.

 

All ships receive the NOAA weather forecasts, and some use professional maritime weather and routing services that take feeds from many sources. There is no way that the US can force a foreign ship into using a specific weather service.

 

With regards to construction, who is going to make this determination? It's not a US vessel. If the USCG, through their Cruise Ship National Center of Expertise, which is a "think tank" mandated to review industry best practices, feels that a change is needed, they have to go through the IMO to get a change to the SOLAS requirements.

 

What I have been saying all along is not that investigation is not warranted, it very well could be, and it very well could take place soon, via the company's review of their ISM system, and the flag state and class society reviews, but that the US has no jurisdiction, and US citizens have no expectation that any investigation will be done by any US agency. I don't know how to say this any other way: it's not our business, because it's not our ship. 75% of the world's commerce travels by sea, and 90% of that commerce is on flag of convenience ships, so if you want to tackle that 800 lb. gorilla and hundreds of years of maritime law, then God bless you.

 

As unrealistic as I know it to be, if you want this kind of investigation to be mandated, you need to petition Congress to stop allowing foreign flag cruise ships to "homeport" in the Us, and make them US flag.

[RDC1]

Perfectly reasonable.

 

All ships receive the NOAA weather forecasts, and some use professional maritime weather and routing services that take feeds from many sources. There is no way that the US can force a foreign ship into using a specific weather service.

 

With regards to construction, who is going to make this determination? It's not a US vessel. If the USCG, through their Cruise Ship National Center of Expertise, which is a "think tank" mandated to review industry best practices, feels that a change is needed, they have to go through the IMO to get a change to the SOLAS requirements.

 

What I have been saying all along is not that investigation is not warranted, it very well could be, and it very well could take place soon, via the company's review of their ISM system, and the flag state and class society reviews, but that the US has no jurisdiction, and US citizens have no expectation that any investigation will be done by any US agency. I don't know how to say this any other way: it's not our business, because it's not our ship. 75% of the world's commerce travels by sea, and 90% of that commerce is on flag of convenience ships, so if you want to tackle that 800 lb. gorilla and hundreds of years of maritime law, then God bless you.

 

As unrealistic as I know it to be, if you want this kind of investigation to be mandated, you need to petition Congress to stop allowing foreign flag cruise ships to "homeport" in the Us, and make them US flag.

 

I never said to force anybody to do anything.

 

However, most organizations are interested in improvement. If they are not then they tend to survive their competition. An incident like this is a good learning experience for a number of organizations.

 

I would expect that the builder, the cruise lines, the Coast Guard would all have an interest in various aspects of the event. Obtaining and sharing information could only help improve the industry.

[Seaworthy01]

No matter, Seaworthy, I'm glad you have come out of the darkness. And you'll enjoy 'knowing' Aquahound and Cheng75kp. I lurked for years on the Concordia Costa thread that followed the parbuckling, refloating, and towing of Concordia. All the mariners posting there were very patient about sharing their knowledge with those of us who were merely spectators.

 

I first 'met' Paul here on CC 5 or so years ago with his thread about a found digital camera. I learned that he is a crackerjack investigator!

 

Aquahound found the camera washed up on the beach in Key West. Miraculously pics and video had survived its months long ocean voyage. There were pics of a family and kids. A school event. Scuba diving video in Aruba. But no name or identifying info, just 'clues' in some of the pictures. Then there was a video filmed by a sea turtle who tried to eat the camera, managed to turn it on and get the strap hooked on his neck, and he swam around taking video for awhile. Then the turtle ditched the camera and it took video of the sea until its battery died. Paul posted some of the pics and the sea turtle video and got a few leads from folks here on CC. He followed all the clues and found the owner in Aruba and returned the camera!

 

That was one of my all time favorite threads here on CC.

Judy

 

 

Great story about the camera. Would have loved to see that video.

[Karma5]

Well, Paul, you essentially took the words right out of my mouth.

 

If you look at the poll results above, they essentially prove your 1 in 4 statement.

 

I had mentioned in another thread elsewhere about this incident that there are some folks who should probably not go on cruise ships or any ships, and some of the commentary expressed here proves my point.

 

I think this was a rude awakening for some, and it might be best for those who can't handle it to stick to other forms of travel / transportation.

 

It was known there was a storm……here in the Northeast storms do change with out notice………………it was a poor decision for Anthem to leave NJ…………...

[foxgoodrich]

Great story about the camera. Would have loved to see that video.

 

It was amazing video! I think Paul had to do some heavy editing as that sea turtle was moving around quite a bit and didn't have much skill focusing the camera.

 

I was impressed that a digital camera could remain intact after several months of a long sea voyage, at the mercy of the currents, from Aruba to Key West. (And the lesson we all learned was to put a photo of our contact info in our cameras.)

Judy

[grand isle joe]

It was known there was a storm……here in the Northeast storms do change with out notice………………it was a poor decision for Anthem to leave NJ…………...

 

As the saying goes in New England "if you don't like the weather, just wait a minute"......

[CruisingChick]

I believe RCCL was in a no win situation. They left Bayonne at 3 PM on Saturday. At the time they left they did not know the storm would blow up the way it did and as fast as it did.

 

If they waited for the storm to pass the northeast they would have had to stay in Bayonne until Monday afternoon (at least). I could just hear all the complaints now about not leaving and being stuck in Bayonne. Then they would have had to alter their entire intinerary. Where could they go in just 5 days and get back by Saturday? Bermuda is not nice this time of year as it's also cold there. Plus I think their Dockyard is all closed down for the winter.

[Seaworthy01]

According to Marine Traffic .com the ship is off the coast of North Jersey, They should be in port soon (couple hours if that). I'm sure the Media is swarming the port area. NY Harbor webcam .com is facing the Verrazano-Narrows bridge waiting for the arrival.

[GregD]

What I would be looking for is:

 

2. What damage did the ship receive. Should there be changes in ship design in the future. For example some of the most threatening things people have described have been potential injuries from things flying around in the cabins, including cabinet doors breaking. Should cruise ships have a foul weather latching mechanism on such doors? Somthing that would hold them closed, such as a strap or latch. If cabins are the place of refuge, not a major cost to prevent potential injuries.

 

That's a perfect item for the ships class (DVN) to add to their rules and regs for passenger ships. I'm positive there will be a rep from DNV to meet the ship and inspect it later this evening.

[mark290]

I believe RCCL was in a no win situation. They left Bayonne at 3 PM on Saturday. At the time they left they did not know the storm would blow up the way it did and as fast as it did.

 

If they waited for the storm to pass the northeast they would have had to stay in Bayonne until Monday afternoon (at least). I could just hear all the complaints now about not leaving and being stuck in Bayonne. Then they would have had to alter their entire intinerary. Where could they go in just 5 days and get back by Saturday? Bermuda is not nice this time of year as it's also cold there. Plus I think their Dockyard is all closed down for the winter.

 

I understand RCCL was in a no win situation and I'm not saying the decision to sail as scheduled was wrong but RCCL cannot make a decision of safety based on if some customers might complain. They make decisions all the time to alter schedules that customers complain about.

[Phoenix1949]

http://www.marinelink.com/news/stormdamaged-inspect404974.aspx

 

Marinelink dot com is reporting that the CG will assist the Bahamian authorities with an inspection of Anthem after it arrives in Bayonne.

Edited February 10, 2016 by Phoenix1949

[BecciBoo]

Many, many years ago, a very wise man told me something that at first, I laughed at. He said 1 in 4 people are stupid. I've come to learn that statement is very true. By stupid, he didn't mean uninformed or not knowledgeable on certain things; he meant totally incapable of sense and reason. And unfortunately, that 1 person tends to get the most attention. We all know who those people are on these threads. So now that I know it to be true, I know to cherish the other 3 people who have at least an ounce of reason and/or humility in their being.

 

Off my soapbox. I stick around because I do enjoy adding facts to these conversations. The 3 out of 4 understand the facts....or do eventually. The other 1 never will but hey, that brings up another popular saying...."you can't fix stupid."

 

GOsh, I'm so ashamed! Paul I so wished I had the cahones to say that....always scared I'll get bannished....again! But I so wished I had.....said that that is:( You just keep on posting!!!

Edited February 10, 2016 by BecciBoo

[jackson bernard]

There should be a US Government investigation regarding this mess, and RCCL should pay for it!

 

If RCCL don't like it then they should take their ships to whatever country they are registered in and keep them out of our ports.

 

Also what is taking them so long to get back? Don't they care the poor passengers just want to get on dry land?

 

Jeez.

[grand isle joe]

There should be a US Government investigation regarding this mess, and RCCL should pay for it!

 

If RCCL don't like it then they should take their ships to whatever country they are registered in and keep them out of our ports.

 

Also what is taking them so long to get back? Don't they care the poor passengers just want to get on dry land?

 

Jeez.

 

 

..............AND ALL YOUZZ KIDS GET OFF MY LAWN!!!!!!:mad::mad:

[mcatmcat]

“We made a mistake,”

 

Vicki Freed who is the Senior Vice President, Sales, Trade Support and Service

Royal Caribbean International tells to travelmarketreport.

[chengkp75]

http://www.marinelink.com/news/stormdamaged-inspect404974.aspx

 

Marinelink dot com is reporting that the CG will assist the Bahamian authorities with an inspection of Anthem after it arrives in Bayonne.

 

Yes, that is the to be expected Port State inspection to see if anything relating to SOLAS, including the hull structure, was damaged. This they have every right to do, and I've always said it would most likely come. Then they will "assist" the Bahamians, who will be lead agency, and who will provide the final report. This will be a report on the company's ISM system, as I've also said would most likely happen, and the USCG is assisting in its SIS status.

[xpcdoojk]

Yes, that is the to be expected Port State inspection to see if anything relating to SOLAS, including the hull structure, was damaged. This they have every right to do, and I've always said it would most likely come. Then they will "assist" the Bahamians, who will be lead agency, and who will provide the final report. This will be a report on the company's ISM system, as I've also said would most likely happen, and the USCG is assisting in its SIS status.

 

Check out the Anthem Feb 13, thread.

 

Fear mongering at its worst.

 

JC

[chengkp75]

“We made a mistake,”

 

Vicki Freed who is the Senior Vice President, Sales, Trade Support and Service

Royal Caribbean International tells to travelmarketreport.

 

And please note that she said they made a mistake and "didn't provide the vacation experience" not that they "placed people's lives in danger", because they didn't.

[jackson bernard]

And please note that she said they made a mistake and "didn't provide the vacation experience" not that they "placed people's lives in danger", because they didn't.

 

 

Oh please. What are you their spokesman or something.