Maritime Time: ask some insiders about the insides of a ship

[OlsSalt]

Are you sure you want to get into this subject? ;)

 

Anyone who had done hundreds of cruises or someone who has done just one, there is no better way to start off with a book or two to help you along the way. Here are three of the most readable books about passenger ships. 1. THE ONLY WAY TO CROSS. 2. LINERS TO THE SUN 3. CROSSING & CRUISING. Author John Maxtone-Grahame. He lecturered on cruises ships for over FORTY YEARS. Sadly, John passed just last year. His most famous book, THE ONLY WAY TO CROSS, is still is press, published 42 years ago. The other two years are more recent. Just checked on EBAY and you can find them for a few dollars. Believe me, what you get for a few dollars in a book is worth more than any month of Neptune Suite nights!

 

John used to say, "There are three sides of a ship. Port side, Starboard side and Social side!" His books with take you from the bridge to the engineroom, the galley, bow to stern and you take you right ballroom, restraurant and cabin from suite to steerage. You will never be disappointed.

 

The first books takes you from the start of the 1900s with the crack German ocean queens through the Cunarders like Lusitania and Mauretania, Titanic, through the Great War, the Depression, Queen Mary, Normandie, The Second War, the 50s and 60s right up to QE2. The other two books go to how many liners became cruise ships and one. This is not just a book of 'lists'. This is the real story of passenger shipping.

 

Thanks for these book recommendations. Adding "Cruise Confidential" for a racy look behind the scenes on a Carnival ship to either the fiction or non-fiction category. Hard to believe any crew member could show up and work with such professional courtesies, if they in fact partied as hard the night before as this book portrayed.

 

I think your book selections will be a little more on the sober side, since zero tolerance for error must be the only operating standard in these high seas endeavors.

[jtl513]

Then maybe we can also find out more about the legendary "Jones Act" in the US that seems to put a damper on US coastal cruising.

 

But I really don't know much about it -

As chengkp75 mentioned above, the Jones Act (Merchant Marine Act of 1920) deals with the transportation of goods, not people. It is the Passenger Vessel Services Act of 1886 that you are referring to. You can learn about that here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passenger_Vessel_Services_Act_of_1886

.

Edited June 22, 2016 by jtl513

[OlsSalt]

Thank you for all the details about "flagging".

 

Always a fascinating label to look for on passing ships. Our favorite was a belching, rust bucket once in Dubai I believe called the "Asphalt Queen" - hard to believe anyone would let her sail anywhere ever again, let alone Dubai would let her pollute her docks.

 

Not sure where she was flagged, but she was certainly a contrast to our Crystal ship docked near by. Gave us a healthy respect for the varieties of ocean going craft that is out there plying the same waterways as our own sublime passenger carriers.

 

Okay, what makes one ship the "flag ship" such as the Amsterdam is often called in the HAL line up. Though I always had to take a double take when I would see Amsterdam (Rotterdam) on the back of her hull, or the Rotterdam (Rotterdam) as well.

 

Obviously HAL is flagged in Rotterdam (why a city and not a country - Netherlands - Holland?) But what gives the Amsterdam her premier "flag ship" status over her similar sister ships. I understand in the military the flag ship is the one carrying the top brass. But in the cruise industry?

Edited June 22, 2016 by OlsSalt

[Copper10-8]

Thanks for these book recommendations. Adding "Cruise Confidential" for a racy look behind the scenes on a Carnival ship to either the fiction or non-fiction category. Hard to believe any crew member could show up and work with such professional courtesies, if they in fact partied as hard the night before as this book portrayed.

 

I think your book selections will be a little more on the sober side, since zero tolerance for error must be the only operating standard in these high seas endeavors.

 

Couple more HAL-related book selections:

 

Btw, "Cruise Confidential", the story of the first American dining room supervisor with Carnival Cruise Lines was an interesting read fer sure! For HAL's history, you can't beat '125 years of Holland America Line; by H.A. Dalkmann and Capt. Albert Schoonderbeek

 

For a more lighthearted look, HAL Captain Hans Mateboer has a couple books out (in addition to his children book series)

 

[Copper10-8]

Thank you for all the details about "flagging".

 

Always a fascinating label to look for on passing ships. Our favorite was a belching, rust bucket once in Dubai I believe called the "Asphalt Queen" - hard to believe anyone would let her sail anywhere ever again, let alone Dubai would let her pollute her docks.

 

Not sure where she was flagged, but she was certainly a contrast to our Crystal ship docked near by. Gave us a healthy respect for the varieties of ocean going craft that is out there plying the same waterways as our own sublime passenger carriers.

 

Okay, what makes one ship the "flag ship" such as the Amsterdam is often called in the HAL line up. Though I always had to take a double take when I would see Amsterdam (Rotterdam) on the back of her hull, or the Rotterdam (Rotterdam) as well.

 

Obviously HAL is flagged in Rotterdam (why a city and not a country - Netherlands - Holland?) But what gives the Amsterdam her premier "flag ship" status over her similar sister ships. I understand in the military the flag ship is the one carrying the top brass. But in the cruise industry?

 

Actually, HAL decided back in 2000 when Amsterdam joined to fleet to have co-flagships, both "R"-class ships; Rotterdam and Amsterdam. I believe the city of Rotterdam was chosen over the city of Amsterdam for registration purposes (besides their very long-time rivalry ;)) because of the history of HAL and Rotterdam are intertwined - Rotterdam is where Holland America Line (initially as C.V. Plate, Reuchlin & Co in 1871 with a name change two years later to Nederlandsch Amerikaansche Stoomvaart Maatschappij/Netherlands American Steamship Company or NASM) was born

[Boytjie]

Okay, what makes one ship the "flag ship" such as the Amsterdam is often called in the HAL line up. Though I always had to take a double take when I would see Amsterdam (Rotterdam) on the back of her hull, or the Rotterdam (Rotterdam) as well.

 

Obviously HAL is flagged in Rotterdam (why a city and not a country - Netherlands - Holland?) But what gives the Amsterdam her premier "flag ship" status over her similar sister ships. I understand in the military the flag ship is the one carrying the top brass. But in the cruise industry?

 

The ship usually shows the city of registration, not the country; for example Hamilton for Cunard (previously Southampton), Valetta (Malta) for Celebrity or Nassau (Bahamas) for NCL.

 

HAL actually has two flag ships: Amsterdam and Rotterdam. The cruise line decides which ship(s) will be their flag ship.

Edited June 22, 2016 by Boytjie

[OlsSalt]

Once a cruise company decides on a "flag ship" what does that now mean?

 

Between the two, we preferred the more whimsy and color on the Rotterdam over the more dour Amsterdam. But that was just an interior decor difference.

 

And certainly the Amsterdam gets the world cruise itinerary, though now we will be using the Rotterdam for the specialty Voyage of the Vikings next year.

 

So does a "flag ship" get the specialty itineraries and the longer dedicated cruises?

[Copper10-8]

Once a cruise company decides on a "flag ship" what does that now mean?

 

Between the two, we preferred the more whimsy and color on the Rotterdam over the more dour Amsterdam. But that was just an interior decor difference.

 

And certainly the Amsterdam gets the world cruise itinerary, though now we will be using the Rotterdam for the specialty Voyage of the Vikings next year.

 

So does a "flag ship" get the specialty itineraries and the longer dedicated cruises?

 

The "flagship" generally does the longer, more exotic, cruises and itineraries, i.e. both Rotterdam and Amsterdam have done the world cruises, Amsterdam for the last seven years straight. In current times however, it's more of a traditional name which can easily also be given to Prinsendam for the same reasons as the other two ships

 

[Topsham]

Thanks for these book recommendations. Adding "Cruise Confidential" for a racy look behind the scenes on a Carnival ship to either the fiction or non-fiction category. Hard to believe any crew member could show up and work with such professional courtesies, if they in fact partied as hard the night before as this book portrayed.

 

I think your book selections will be a little more on the sober side, since zero tolerance for error must be the only operating standard in these high seas endeavors.

 

 

Oh no. Not that kind of boring book. The Only Way to Cross is simply the history of passenger shipping with great stories. There is more than just reading gossip about what goes on between crew members. No better.... or worse... than any small town of 3,000 people. Probably less smut stuff than most small villages! :eek:

 

 

Another is you want to talk about thus subject... even asking question you should join " ships nostalgia dot com ". Almost 100, 000 members. All around the world and mostly seafarers and enthusiasts. Free. All kinds of shipping. More knowledge than you would find anywhere else. Enough captains, pilots, engineers, deck crew, engine crew, stewards, pursers than you could shake a stick at! Wonderful archive of photos. Some great crackers!

[Topsham]

Once a cruise company decides on a "flag ship" what does that now mean?

 

Between the two, we preferred the more whimsy and color on the Rotterdam over the more dour Amsterdam. But that was just an interior decor difference.

 

And certainly the Amsterdam gets the world cruise itinerary, though now we will be using the Rotterdam for the specialty Voyage of the Vikings next year.

 

So does a "flag ship" get the specialty itineraries and the longer dedicated cruises?

 

 

Traditionally a flagship is 'largest' ship in a fleet. In the navy a flagship was designated at ship carrying the 'flag'.... as the admiral's flag.

 

 

For Cunard, the largest ship was always the flagship. When a new ship and largest was built then the name would be carried on that ship. You might have a newer ship and smaller ship but it would not be the flagship.

 

Over the years... like HAL with the ROTTERDAM and AMSTERDAM it became a marketing 'thing' to come up with 'two flagships'. A bit silly. In the US NAVY you might have several flagship like Pacific Fleet, or Atlantic Fleet or China Fleet. That is fine... all with their own Admirals. Cruise ships lines, one small fleet like 15 ships.... one flagship. Cunard has gone the other way. They used to have a fleet of fifty ships... with one flagship. Now they have THREE ships and a huge flagship. Go figure. My old company, Denholms.... over 100 ships. No flagship and no Commodore.

 

 

The old ROTTERDAM was flagship when she came into service in 1959. She take the title from the NIEUW AMSTERDAM. Traditionally that title should have gone to the STATENDAM in 1992. It didn't so they built a new ROTTERDAM... and then AMSTERDAM. Traditionally the flagship, should really go to the KONINGSDAM. Again, nothing traditional... just a marketing game.

[Copper10-8]

........................ Traditionally that title should have gone to the STATENDAM in 1992. It didn't so they built a new ROTTERDAM... and then AMSTERDAM. Traditionally the flagship, should really go to the KONINGSDAM. Again, nothing traditional... just a marketing game.

 

Funny thing is that SADM was assigned the 1993 world cruise but only for that one year. Wonder if they - Seattle - were thinking about flagship status for her around that time

 

[chengkp75]

Okay, back again, now, where was I with cabotage. Oh, yeah.

 

Now, many feel that the PVSA and Jones Acts were implemented in order to protect US shipping jobs and shipbuilding jobs driven by organized labor. While the preservation of US jobs is quite true, these bills were passed when organized labor was in its infancy. There have been cabotage laws in one form or another almost from the Revolution and the birth of the US. The Jones Act was actually passed at the instigation of Seattle shipowners who saw the newly burgeoning traffic to Alaska being taken by Canadian shipping, and so they pressed Congress to enact a stiffer coastwise cabotage law, the Jones Act. So, the Jones Act was not to preserve US jobs, but to protect US profits of shipowners.

 

The PVSA was passed even earlier, in 1886, and actually was passed to ensure passenger safety. In the 1800's, there were many steamboat explosions, fires, and collisions/sinkings, and so Congress passed the Steamboat Act of 1852, which mandated that all steamboats in the US be inspected by the Steamboat Inspection Service (precursor to today's USCG Office of Marine Inspection) for safety requirements. Steamboat operators did not wish to pay for the inspections or the required safety changes, so they would flag their steamboats in foreign countries, so they were no longer subject to the Steamboat Act. In response, Congress passed the PVSA, which required that all coastwise and inland passenger service be on US flag vessels, which would be subject to inspection under the Act.

 

The Jones Act, which many uninformed people, and agenda pushing types like Senator McCain decry, protects not only coastwise cargo carriage, but also all intra-port and inland waterway (Great Lakes and rivers) barge traffic. In another thread on the PVSA, I posted this, which gives a good idea of the economic benefit of the Jones Act trade:

 

Here's another article to read, this pertains more to the PVSA's bigger cousin the Jones Act, but if one cabotage law falls, the other would surely fall soon after:

 

Note the nearly half a million jobs and the $29 billion in wages, and $92 billion in output generated by the Jones Act.

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...-2gIyBBm0JLD0A

 

Both the Jones Act and the PVSA ensure that coastwise and inland vessels meet USCG safety and training requirements.

 

While the PVSA does not have as large an impact as the Jones Act, most people narrowly consider it to apply only to cruise vessels. In reality it applies to all passenger vessels operating coastwise in the US, including ferries, commuter boats, water taxis, excursion boats (sightseeing, Duck, whale watching), casino boats, and even larger charter fishing vessels. Without the PVSA, every one of these vessels' owners could reflag their vessels foreign and exempt themselves from USCG regulations, US tax and labor laws, and some US environmental laws. I'm not sure that anyone has done a study like the one above for the Jones Act, in relation to the PVSA, since again, most don't realize the true scope of the PVSA and the wide aspects of our economy it touches.

 

In a nutshell, the PVSA states that a foreign flag passenger ship cannot transport a passenger from one US port to another US port, for final disembarkation, unless it calls at a "distant" foreign port. A distant foreign port is defined as any port not in North or Central America, not Bermuda, and not in the Caribbean, with the exception of the "ABC" islands (Aruba, Bonaire, and Curacao). If a ship does so, the company is liable for a fine of $300 (currently) per passenger so carried. It is the cruise lines' ticket contracts with you that give them the right to pass the fine along to you.

 

Cruises that start and end in the same US port (closed loop) are exempt from the "distant" port requirement, so long as they call at at least one foreign port during the voyage. In 1985, the PVSA was amended to allow cruise ships to call at multiple US ports, provided the passengers did not "permanently" disembark the ship, since technically going from an embarkation port in the US to a port call in the US would be considered transportation between the two ports (you did get off the ship in the port call), but they decided on the "permanently disembarked" phrasing instead.

 

The EU has similar cabotage, in that transportation between two ports in a country (coastwise trade) (Rome to Venice, for example) is limited to EU member state flag vessels, unless there is a call at a port in another country in between. Therefore, a HAL ship could carry a passenger direct from Rome to Venice (Dutch flag), while an RCI ship (Bahamian flag) could not.

 

China has similar laws, which is why Carnival is planning to build ships in China and flag them Chinese, so that they can do coastwise China cruises.

 

There are several smaller US flag cruise ships offering coastwise and river cruising, but the only ocean-going US flag cruise ship is the NCL Pride of America. Given Hawaii's distance from anything, using a US flag ship there makes some sense, but given the current structure of the PVSA, foreign flag cruise lines are able to offer 14 day round trip cruises from the West Coast, either starting in Vancouver, or calling at Ensenada, for the same price that NCL can afford for their 7 day all Hawaii cruises, due to the excess cost of a US flag vessel.

 

As for expanding the US coastal cruise industry, I'm enough of a realist to know that isn't going to happen, Hawaii is a market anomaly. And as far as the cruise industry is concerned, from a report by the University of Hawaii during the time when NCL was trying to force compliance with the PVSA by the West Coast cruises:

 

" The Cruise Lines International Association (CLIA, 2007) polled its own members on their

sentiments toward the potential repeal of the PVSA and reported that “While a reformed

Passenger Vessel Services Act might add some new U.S. ports to cruise itineraries, most of our

members believe that this would not be significant, especially in light of the restrictions that

likely would be attached.” Thus CLIA is currently not advocating a change to the PVSA. "

 

Note the bolded part. While a small minority of the cruising population, while especially vocal here on CC because of their experience as cruisers, feel that they are being cheated by the PVSA, the cruise lines see this as of no account, since it wouldn't affect their bottom line.

 

Complicating the matter of the Jones Act and PVSA is that you can have a US flag ship that does not qualify for these trades. Maersk Lines, one of the larger container shipping lines in the world, operates a US subsidiary that operates US flag ships that were not built in the US, and therefore not eligible for Jones Act cargo. Since the POA was not built (completely) in the US, she was granted an exemption to the US built clause because NCL bought the half completed hull from the US government, who got it as loan guarantee when American Hawaiian Cruises (the original owner) went bankrupt during construction.

[rafinmd]

I'm wondering what the actual PVSA rules for B2B cruises. It is clear that you cannot do a B2B on the same ship like San Diego to Vancouver to Seward. When does the journey become legal?

 

If I boarded the Amsterdam in San Diego, got off in Vancouver the same day and continued on the Noordam the same day, would that be legal?

 

What about getting off the Amsterdam and on the Radiance of the Seas the same day? Is that legal or just something that happens because neither cruise line nor the government is likely to notice it?

 

Is any of this technically legal or is an overnight stay somewhere required?

 

Thanks

Roy

[chengkp75]

I'm wondering what the actual PVSA rules for B2B cruises. It is clear that you cannot do a B2B on the same ship like San Diego to Vancouver to Seward. When does the journey become legal?

 

If I boarded the Amsterdam in San Diego, got off in Vancouver the same day and continued on the Noordam the same day, would that be legal?

 

Yes, since each ship took you either from a US port to a foreign port, or from a foreign port to a US port.

 

What about getting off the Amsterdam and on the Radiance of the Seas the same day? Is that legal or just something that happens because neither cruise line nor the government is likely to notice it?

 

This is legal as well, because each leg is on a different company's ship.

 

Is any of this technically legal or is an overnight stay somewhere required?

 

Thanks

Roy

 

Both above examples are legal since they involve two different ships for each leg of the voyage. Princess also has a way, where during their repo season, they go Hawaii to Vancouver, then a one night Vancouver to Seattle, and then Seattle round trip to Alaska. You could not do all three together, but if you got off in Vancouver, made your own way (bus, train, ferry) to Seattle, you can then reboard the same ship for Alaska. Basically, to take the same ship, you need a calendar day break in the voyage, and you need to have "permanently" disembarked in between (gotten off with your luggage and paid your bill).

[jtl513]

deleted

Edited June 22, 2016 by jtl513

[Topsham]

Thank you for all the details about "flagging".

 

Always a fascinating label to look for on passing ships. Our favorite was a belching, rust bucket once in Dubai I believe called the "Asphalt Queen" - hard to believe anyone would let her sail anywhere ever again, let alone Dubai would let her pollute her docks.

 

Not sure where she was flagged, but she was certainly a contrast to our Crystal ship docked near by. Gave us a healthy respect for the varieties of ocean going craft that is out there plying the same waterways as our own sublime passenger carriers.

 

Okay, what makes one ship the "flag ship" such as the Amsterdam is often called in the HAL line up. Though I always had to take a double take when I would see Amsterdam (Rotterdam) on the back of her hull, or the Rotterdam (Rotterdam) as well.

 

 

Obviously HAL is flagged in Rotterdam (why a city and not a country - Netherlands - Holland?) But what gives the Amsterdam her premier "flag ship" status over her similar sister ships. I understand in the military the flag ship is the one carrying the top brass. But in the cruise industry?

 

 

 

When an owner wants to register a ship he must choose a 'port of registry'.

 

First job is to choose the 'flag state'. Say the owner wants Netherlands. Assuming that everything is in order. They must choose a 'Port of Registry. Say the owner was based in Rotterdam he would probably be registered in Rotterdam. Unlikely he would choose Amsterdam. Plenty of Amsterdam owners would be found to be registered in Amsterdam and so on. If there is a seaport where this work can be carried it then you will find ships registered in those ports. Say like a ship is being US flagged. The owner will choose the port of register. Might be New York, Boston or Norfolk Va, or Wilmington De, Miami, New Orleans, San Diego, Los Angeles, Seattle...... ANYWHERE! The import thing... your port of registry has nothing to do with a 'city', in fact you will plenty of ports with lots of ports without even towns!

[rafinmd]

Thank you chengkp75 for the clarification on the PVSA. My understanding was that the test was strictly the origin and final destination of the passenger, good to know that the specific combination of ships is a factor as well.

 

One oddity of registration that struck me as interesting: There are many US flag freighters plying the Great Lakes. Built on the Great Lakes, they are too big to pass through the St. Lawrence Seaway, but their "Home Port" is Wilmington Delaware, location they will never be able to sail to.

 

Roy

[chengkp75]

Thank you chengkp75 for the clarification on the PVSA. My understanding was that the test was strictly the origin and final destination of the passenger, good to know that the specific combination of ships is a factor as well.

 

One oddity of registration that struck me as interesting: There are many US flag freighters plying the Great Lakes. Built on the Great Lakes, they are too big to pass through the St. Lawrence Seaway, but their "Home Port" is Wilmington Delaware, location they will never be able to sail to.

 

Roy

 

Taxes, my friend, taxes. Delaware is a corporate tax haven, so many, many US flag ships register there. Including the tanker I'm sitting on right now.

Edited June 22, 2016 by chengkp75

[OlsSalt]

Taxes, my friend, taxes. Delaware is a corporate tax haven, so many, many US flag ships register there. Including the tanker I'm sitting on right now.

 

Right you are. Delaware has one main industry: shell corporations. Well known in legal circles too. BTW, I hate to interrupt the flow of information with repeated thank you, thank you and thank you for all your excellent responses .......but THANK YOU!

Edited June 22, 2016 by OlsSalt

[chengkp75]

Here's another unique vessel registration. I used to work on a RO/RO ship that took US government cargo to Germany (along with commercial cargo). In Bremerhaven, there was always a small Baltic coaster (what I call a Rhine barge) named the Erich Kesselring, that was US flag. It looked, and was about the size of this photo:

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwig6uT547zNAhXn3YMKHa00AYIQjRwIBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.freefoto.com%2Fpreview%2F2026-35-12%2FInland-Barges--River-Rhine--Basel--Switzerland&psig=AFQjCNEq57mPxyPsCrVumJ54TCE17OBBCA&ust=1466724300422092

 

It could never cross the ocean to reach the US, but its owner had flagged it US so it could get the contracts for carrying US government containers to Scandinavia.

[rafinmd]

Here's another unique vessel registration. I used to work on a RO/RO ship that took US government cargo to Germany (along with commercial cargo). In Bremerhaven, there was always a small Baltic coaster (what I call a Rhine barge) named the Erich Kesselring, that was US flag. It looked, and was about the size of this photo:

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwig6uT547zNAhXn3YMKHa00AYIQjRwIBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.freefoto.com%2Fpreview%2F2026-35-12%2FInland-Barges--River-Rhine--Basel--Switzerland&psig=AFQjCNEq57mPxyPsCrVumJ54TCE17OBBCA&ust=1466724300422092

It could never cross the ocean to reach the US, but its owner had flagged it US so it could get the contracts for carrying US government containers to Scandinavia.

 

 

I thought I remembered seeing that before. Yup, over on the Crystal forum, on the SS United States thread. Do you suppose it was sent to Europe as cargo on a larger freighter?

 

Roy

[Topsham]

How did they get the vessel US flag unless built in the US? Perhaps a 'special' rule. :rolleyes:

 

 

How did they get away with a National Socialist name like...Erich Kesselring!

Edited June 22, 2016 by Topsham

[chengkp75]

I thought I remembered seeing that before. Yup, over on the Crystal forum, on the SS United States thread. Do you suppose it was sent to Europe as cargo on a larger freighter?

 

Roy

 

Nope, reflagged in Germany.

 

How did they get the vessel US flag unless built in the US? Perhaps a 'special' rule. :rolleyes:

 

 

How did they get away with a National Socialist name like...Erich Kesselring!

 

US flag ships do not need to be built in the US. Only ships wanting to engage in Jones Act or PVSA trades need to be built in the US. I've worked on US flag drillship built in Japan, US flag RO/RO built in Sweden, and US flag container ships built in Denmark. As I've said, Maersk Lines, Ltd., a subsidiary of Maersk Lines and A.P. Moeller Group, has the largest fleet of US flag ships operating in international trades, and all 14 ships were built overseas.

 

And I believe you are thinking of "Smiling Al" Albert Kesselring, the Luftwaffe General.

[Copper10-8]

...............................

And I believe you are thinking of "Smiling Al" Albert Kesselring, the Luftwaffe General.

 

Field marshal "Uncle Albert"; he ordered the bombing of the city of Rotterdam during the Battle for the Netherlands in May 1940

[OlsSalt]

Field marshal "Uncle Albert"; he ordered the bombing of the city of Rotterdam during the Battle for the Netherlands in May 1940

 

Wow, we just watched Sink the Bismark, having just plied those waters on our last cruise - more critical WWII sea battles -- unbelievable what both sides put themselves through ... and we now just cruise those very same waters and get chocolates on our pillows.

 

My head spins. The whole nasty affair is part of many of our own still living memories - yet we remain drawn to the stunning beauty and history of this part of the world ...and wonder how could this have happened ...twice in one century.