Maritime Time: ask some insiders about the insides of a ship

[RMLincoln]

Gentlemen: Thank you for sharing your wealth of experience and knowledge! There was a question on the "previous" thread which I have not seen an answer to about lifeboat drivers. I have wondered about this and would like to know what type/level crew is assigned to drive lifeboats in an emergency and how are they trained. Thank you, m--

[Copper10-8]

HAL's Housekeeping Dept. is headed by the Chief Housekeeper. Working for him/her are Assistant Housekeepers, (on the bigger ships only: Junior Housekeepers) and Stateroom Inspectors, all supervisory positions. The guys/girls assigned to keep the staterooms looking nice are stateroom stewards and assistant stateroom stewards. The entry-level positions in HK are Housekeeping Attendants. There is a Bell Boy (He wears the 'yum yum man'-lookalike uniform but it's blue & white as opposed to red and black) and the Captain has his own steward. The HK office has a HK Foreman, HK Clerk, a HK Handyman and a Night Steward.

 

The onboard florist, or florists, is/are assigned to HK and down in the main laundry you'll find a Laundry Master, a Laundry Foreman, a Linen Keeper, a Linen Runner and several Laundry Attendants. The tailors belong to Housekeeping. The last person assigned to HK, a fairly new position, is the Pest Management Coordinator.

 

That is HK, perhaps not the largest Dept. but one of the most hard working.

 

[Copper10-8]

Gentlemen: Thank you for sharing your wealth of experience and knowledge! There was a question on the "previous" thread which I have not seen an answer to about lifeboat drivers. I have wondered about this and would like to know what type/level crew is assigned to drive lifeboats in an emergency and how are they trained. Thank you, m--

 

On HAL, Nautical/Deck officers and quartermasters are qualified tender and lifeboat helmsmen. Deck officers get their initial training in their maritime academies which continues during their 'practical time' onboard as officer cadets. Quartermasters (plus some senior sailors) get their training onboard. All (officers, QM's and sailors) have to take, and successfully complete, a practical exam which qualifies them as tender/lifeboat helmsmen.

 

[chengkp75]

SOLAS requires 2 certified lifeboatmen for every lifeboat carried onboard the ship. As John says, this certification requires classroom and practical (in the boat, in the water) work, and a test, both written and practical.

 

Now, one thing to remember, is that if the passengers are embarked into the lifeboats, and the boats launched, the vast majority of the crew have not been ordered to abandon ship as well, they continue at their emergency stations, working to control the emergency. Only after the passengers are away from the ship, will the Captain determine if the order to abandon ship is required. Remember, the signal that cruisers associate with lifeboats and abandoning ship (the muster signal) is actually the signal for "fire and general emergency" for the crew. There is another signal for the crew to abandon ship.

 

Now, while I have no first hand experience with HAL's operation, this being on the HAL forum after all, my comments below apply to international crews that I have experience with.

 

The ships use the lifeboatman certificates of the Deck Officers and Deck Crew (Quartermasters and Able Seamen) to fulfill the regulatory requirements for certified lifeboatmen. However, in an actual emergency, those Deck Officers, and many of the Deck crew, will be no where near the lifeboats, having emergency duties elsewhere, or in the case of the deck crew, in continuing to ready and launch lifeboats. So, the positions of lifeboat crew (2-3 per boat for most boats, I believe 12 or so on the 350 person boats on Oasis class) falls on other crew, stewards, galley hands, bartenders, waiters, who have onboard training under the certified lifeboatmen to be able to handle the boats.

 

One of the differences between US flag requirements and SOLAS, that adds to the cost of US flag operations that I mentioned in previous posts about flagging, is that the USCG recognizes that the Officers will not be available to man the lifeboats when the passengers evacuate, so their number of certificates may not be used to cover the statutory required number. Therefore, the POA has to send volunteer crew (again, stewards, bartenders, waiters, galley hands) to lifeboat school, and pay for their training (the professional mariners; deck and engine officers, and deck crew take the training on their own dime as part of their professional qualifications), and given the turnover of hotel staff, must constantly renew the numbers of lifeboatmen. NCL worked with one of the maritime unions to re-open a union training school in Hawaii just for lifeboat and fire fighting training of the hotel staff (certified fire fighting training for every crew member is also an additional USCG requirement over and above SOLAS).

 

When a lifeboat or tender is launched for search and rescue operations (man overboard or refugee rescue), it will normally be manned by the professionals in the Deck department.

[ski ww]

A very interesting, informative & eye opening post. Thank you all for your imput.

Allan

[RMLincoln]

Thank you John and Chengkp75 for these detailed explanations.

 

Of course we all expect not to have to experience an evacuation, but having read about the fire and subsequent sinking of the old Prinsendam in 1980, and having be awakened on Maasdam in the middle of the night with the captain announcing that there was a fire in the incinerator room "now under control", and being a fire-fighter/EMT for 14/13 years with a rural fire department, I am aware that preparation and training are the keys.

 

I have stood at muster stations headed by singers/dancers but assumed that they would not be the helmsmen, which left me wondering then, who could?

 

I am gaining wonderful insights from this thread. Thank you for continuing it. My DH has a niece who is a Radio/Electronics officer on container ships and I have learned a lot through her about the maritime world we participate in but from a joyfully shielded perspective.

 

Stay safe out there! m--

Edited June 24, 2016 by RMLincoln

[OlsSalt]

Questions, questions, questions: The amount of training and potential career ladders in this discussion are fascinating.

 

You talk about "entry level" jobs and the required training. Do the crew members do this training during their contract time with the company, or on their own time before or after their contract time onboard the ship itself.

 

Do new crew members apply for a certain sector - house keeping, engineering, entertainment support, dining ....etc. Or do they get assigned by the company and what criteria underscores these varied assignments?

 

Do crew members use these assignments as a potential "career ladder" or are most short-term workers and move on to other endeavors after a few contract assignment voyages - both on cruse ships and commercial shipping.

 

Going far off this topic, how much "daylight" do some crew members get (and where) that conduct most of their tasks inside the ship - like the laundry and tailoring departments, the engine room, trash and what other bowels of the ship activities we passengers never see unless we sign up for an extended specialty ship tour - did one of these insider tours on the Oosterdam and this was the best money we ever spent onboard.

 

And lastly (for now) How do they select few to become the Yum-Yum men - (ladies)?

Edited June 24, 2016 by OlsSalt

[TheSecondSister]

And another off-topic question...

 

I was watching and listening to the Juneau Harbor Webcam (a fascination my husband completely fails to understand) as the Maasdam docked in Juneau this more. There was a request from the shore asking if the ship could list to starboard to make the gangway more even for disembarking guests due to a quickly falling tide. The captain asked for how much of a list because he was concerned about potentially hitting something on the dock, and the answer was 1/2 meter.

 

Question for those in the know... how do they make the ship list intentionally? And to what degree can they do it?

Edited June 24, 2016 by TheSecondSister

[BillB48]

And another off-topic question...

 

I was watching and listening to the Juneau Harbor Webcam (a fascination my husband completely fails to understand) as the Maasdam docked in Juneau this more. There was a request from the shore asking if the ship could list to starboard to make the gangway more even for disembarking guests due to a quickly falling tide. The captain asked for how much of a list because he was concerned about potentially hitting something on the dock, and the answer was 1/2 meter.

 

Question for those in the know... how do they make the ship list intentionally? And to what degree can they do it?

 

Can't quantify how much of a list in terms of degrees but I would guess a couple of degrees or so... anyway they can make the ship list to the point where it is noticeable on board. They may not need that much to accommodate the gangway.

 

They do it by taking on ballast water in certain sections of the ship and by moving fuel around. I know the Chief... chengkp will provide a more detailed description when he sees this.

[Copper10-8]

And another off-topic question...

 

I was watching and listening to the Juneau Harbor Webcam (a fascination my husband completely fails to understand) as the Maasdam docked in Juneau this more. There was a request from the shore asking if the ship could list to starboard to make the gangway more even for disembarking guests due to a quickly falling tide. The captain asked for how much of a list because he was concerned about potentially hitting something on the dock, and the answer was 1/2 meter.

 

Question for those in the know... how do they make the ship list intentionally? And to what degree can they do it?

 

It's called "pumping" to port or starboard and is done by shifting the ballast water inside the ship. It's done quite frequently in order to clear the gangway to the dock at times when the opening is a tad below the dock due to local tide. The list can not be drastic of course, to the point of making walking uncomfortable. When it's done it's almost unnoticeable however, it accomplishes the purpose of ensuring the gangway can be connected

[Topsham]

And another off-topic question...

 

I was watching and listening to the Juneau Harbor Webcam (a fascination my husband completely fails to understand) as the Maasdam docked in Juneau this more. There was a request from the shore asking if the ship could list to starboard to make the gangway more even for disembarking guests due to a quickly falling tide. The captain asked for how much of a list because he was concerned about potentially hitting something on the dock, and the answer was 1/2 meter.

 

Question for those in the know... how do they make the ship list intentionally? And to what degree can they do it?

 

 

 

Quite easy. Pump ballast (seawater) from one tank side to the other side.

 

Depends on how much in this kind of operation you want. Might be just a few degrees... unlikely to be much more because everything becomes unsteady for passengers.

 

Passenger ships carry out ballasting and trimming fore & aft and heeling almost every hour of the day... to keep the ship in good trim when use of water, bunkers etc.

[chengkp75]

Questions, questions, questions: The amount of training and potential career ladders in this discussion are fascinating.

 

You talk about "entry level" jobs and the required training. Do the crew members do this training during their contract time with the company, or on their own time before or after their contract time onboard the ship itself.

 

Do new crew members apply for a certain sector - house keeping, engineering, entertainment support, dining ....etc. Or do they get assigned by the company and what criteria underscores these varied assignments?

 

Do crew members use these assignments as a potential "career ladder" or are most short-term workers and move on to other endeavors after a few contract assignment voyages - both on cruse ships and commercial shipping.

 

Going far off this topic, how much "daylight" do some crew members get (and where) that conduct most of their tasks inside the ship - like the laundry and tailoring departments, the engine room, trash and what other bowels of the ship activities we passengers never see unless we sign up for an extended specialty ship tour - did one of these insider tours on the Oosterdam and this was the best money we ever spent onboard.

 

And lastly (for now) How do they select few to become the Yum-Yum men - (ladies)?

 

Lets take these one at a time.

 

Entry level crew. All mariners are required to take at least a 4 hour personal safety and social awareness course, mandated by the STCW convention. For the vast majority of cruise ship crew, this is the limit of statutory training. Some companies, like HAL and NCL have training facilities that teach basic wait staff, galley staff, and cabin steward duties. For these lines, this is where the 4 hour course is held, or onboard if necessary. For the Deck and Engine departments, typically the entry level positions (Ordinary Seaman and Engine Boy (not my term!)) have to have some basic fire fighting and lifesaving training, again as mandated by STCW, and most belong to a maritime union in their home country. This training must be completed prior to joining the ship, as it is a statutory requirement, so this is on the crew's own dime and time.

 

Deck and Engine crew typically stick to those career paths, and advance as their experience and training allow.

 

Housekeeping and Food & Beverage staff I'm not real sure how they get placed originally, but some stick to the same department and some can move laterally, if their supervisors feel they can do the new position. If you Google "cruise ship jobs", there will be lots of positions advertised along with the qualifications and pre-requisites desired. This does, of course, vary by line, so take it as a generalization. Most international crew, especially the hotel staff are filled by crewing agencies in the various countries.

 

Many crew stay for a few years and build a nest egg, and then go back to their home country and perhaps do the same job (hotel or restaurant work) without the hassle of being away from family. Some stay, and progress up the ranks, and can reach senior supervisor status.

 

On commercial ships, you have either new personnel who are just starting out, and many don't like the life so they leave. The vast majority tend to stay and make a career of it, some with a single company, some with multiple. It is not really a pejorative for a mariner to have worked for a lot of companies.

 

90% of the back of the house staff aren't allowed in passenger areas at any time, and will actually see "daylight" only on off hours, if those off hours are during the day, in a few designated open deck crew areas. Depending on the crew member's normal work shift, they may get time to go ashore during their off time, many do not. Engineers, environmental operators (the PC title for the "garbage men"), laundry staff, and many others rarely see actual daylight for days at a time. For those who can't get ashore, there is usually a thriving "bazaar" in the crew areas, where those who did get ashore sell/trade essential items with those who can't. There is usually a barber shop going a couple of times a week.

 

I have no idea what a Yum Yum person is. :p

[chengkp75]

And another off-topic question...

 

I was watching and listening to the Juneau Harbor Webcam (a fascination my husband completely fails to understand) as the Maasdam docked in Juneau this more. There was a request from the shore asking if the ship could list to starboard to make the gangway more even for disembarking guests due to a quickly falling tide. The captain asked for how much of a list because he was concerned about potentially hitting something on the dock, and the answer was 1/2 meter.

 

Question for those in the know... how do they make the ship list intentionally? And to what degree can they do it?

 

As others have stated, by pumping ballast from side to side. However, ballast weighs a lot, and therefore it requires fuel consumption to haul sea water around, so cruise ships don't carry a whole lot. Ballast is typically carried by cargo ships to make up for the weight of cargo that isn't there when the ship travels empty, for stability reasons. Since cruise ships don't change their "cargo" weight (passengers) that much, there isn't as much need for ballast.

 

So, the ability to trim or list a ship by ballast is somewhat limited, and when that ability runs out, the engineers will have to move other liquids like drinking water or fuel from one tank to another. So, the engineers are always talking to the Deck officers about the day's program (from a technical standpoint, not what the CD has on store), to determine the best tank to supply fuel or drinking water from to minimize the need to move the limited ballast.

[OlsSalt]

Speaking of ballast, it is fascinating in the Caribbean to see what was built out of discarded ballast when they used bricks manufactured in the home country.

 

Hence the very signature yellow bricks used for pavings and structures in the former Danish port city (Christenstad?) in the US Virgin Islands, and the signature yellow brick buildings found in Denmark itself.

 

Now it sounds like ballast today is mainly liquids? And "design" .... as we learned after a visit to the Vasa Museum in Stockholm.

Edited June 24, 2016 by OlsSalt

[chengkp75]

Speaking of ballast, it is fascinating in the Caribbean to see what was built out of discarded ballast when they used bricks manufactured in the home country.

 

Hence the very signature yellow bricks used for pavings and structures in the former Danish port city (Christenstad?) in the US Virgin Islands, and the signature yellow brick buildings found in Denmark itself.

 

Now it sounds like ballast today is mainly liquids? And "design" .... as we learned after a visit to the Vasa Museum in Stockholm.

 

Most New England cobblestones are locally referred to as "ballast stone". The ships carried cargo from the colonies to the home country that was heavy and bulky, but coming back to the New World, they carried finished products and not that many of them, as the population was small, so stone ballast was used. Also, its hard to have liquid ballast tanks in wooden ships :D. The stone was basically given away at the port where the ship loaded new cargo.

 

The design factor is basically where you put the ballast. That is what a Chief Mate on a cargo ship worries about, are the containers full of ping pong balls low down in the ship and the containers with lead ingots up top? Hope not.

[OlsSalt]

The design factor is basically where you put the ballast. That is what a Chief Mate on a cargo ship worries about, are the containers full of ping pong balls low down in the ship and the containers with lead ingots up top? Hope not.

 

To the layperson's eyes, it looks like a lot of container ships are very top heavy. Are these empty containers returning somewhere else or as you say filled with ping pong balls. Or is there a lot of other weight well below the sight lines on these massive cargo ships we now see in every port.

 

How often does a "fake" report about contents in a container (contraband weapons instead of gluten-free marshmallows) affect the ultimate stability of a ship when there must be a lot of computer juggling ahead of time when these items actually get loaded?

[chengkp75]

To the layperson's eyes, it looks like a lot of container ships are very top heavy. Are these empty containers returning somewhere else or as you say filled with ping pong balls. Or is there a lot of other weight well below the sight lines on these massive cargo ships we now see in every port.

 

How often does a "fake" report about contents in a container (contraband weapons instead of gluten-free marshmallows) affect the ultimate stability of a ship when there must be a lot of computer juggling ahead of time when these items actually get loaded?

 

Actually, the cruise ships these days are more "top heavy" than container ships. Even the stacks of containers on deck are not as high as the top deck of a cruise ship, and the container ship has nearly twice the draft (depth underwater) as the cruise ship.

 

False weights on containers is a big hot button topic in the international shipping industry right now, and there are some IMO regulations being proposed that would fix things for the ships, but make it more expensive for the shipper, so of course there's a lot of pushback. For the most part, the shipping line relies on the declared weight from the shipper, which may or may not be accurate, but cargo containers and the cranes that lift them have weight limits, so a grossly overweight container usually won't get lifted.

 

The shipping line will get a manifest of what is in the container, and this can give an idea of the correct weight. The crew onboard typically only gets the container number, the weight, and a "Hazmat" manifest. This lists all potentially hazardous cargo (provided it is above the "reportable" limit, so even small quantities of hazmat can slip by. The Mate is concerned with keeping various hazmats separated, and properly stowed (some hazmat must be below decks, some must be on deck, some must be separated from other types of hazmat by a given distance, vertically and horizontally, etc, etc).

 

The load plan, telling the port operations people and the ship where each container is to go is done by computer, and is based on the declared weight, using the ship's stability program to keep the ship within required parameters of stability. It even does rough hazmat segregation.

 

Since freight rates are determined by the weight of the container, under reporting of weight is pretty common, and this is what the IMO is trying to address.

 

There can always be fraud or contraband in containerized shipping, but that is something that the law enforcement agencies of the various nations need to deal with, not the ship. As an example, we had a refrigerated container of frozen shrimp valued at $1 million. When it was discharged at the port, and delivered to the recipient, they claimed the shrimp were rotten. Our recording devices on the container confirmed that we had kept the container at zero degrees the whole time. So, a forensic biologist was called in, and the investigation showed that the shrimp was rotten before the container was loaded, and the shipper was trying to defraud the insurance company.

[rafinmd]

Speaking of weight, distribution, and stability, how much of the "heavy stuff" at the bottom of the ship is the actual engines. I remember being on the Celebrity Summit where a crate near the tender door was labeled as a spare (gas turbine) engine. My impression was that was quite a small fraction of the size and weight of a typical marine diesel. Are the diesel engines a big part of the weight that keeps a ship stable and does substitution of gas turbines present an added challenge in designing ships for stability?

 

Thanks

Roy

[Topsham]

The weight of a 'gas generator' is quite small and yes, not that heavy. My old ship EUROLINER had two.... two Pratt & Whitney and same size and power. We changed the 'CG' every two months. On arrival Weehawaken the CG was uncoupled, slung through a gantry in the engineroom and back through a panel into the container hold. The same shoreside gantry lifted out and taken away for refurbishment by P&W. A newly CG could be fitted in... could be done in 12 hours. 4 weeks later the other engine, now running for two months, would be taken out for overhaul. We had four ships and spares to swop between the ships.

 

The large diesels are heavy compared to the turbine units, but designers can quite easily take care of the stability problem... they have to!

 

Here a few photos of the Seatrain ships. You can see that the length of the machinery was quite short... less than 40 ft. Very high superstructure. These ship were very fast... 28 knots burning 270 tonnes per day of distillate. Very costly. Stable? Sometimes, some stable but could roll a lot. I was glad to get away from them!

[chengkp75]

Speaking of weight, distribution, and stability, how much of the "heavy stuff" at the bottom of the ship is the actual engines. I remember being on the Celebrity Summit where a crate near the tender door was labeled as a spare (gas turbine) engine. My impression was that was quite a small fraction of the size and weight of a typical marine diesel. Are the diesel engines a big part of the weight that keeps a ship stable and does substitution of gas turbines present an added challenge in designing ships for stability?

 

Thanks

Roy

 

One thing about the Celebrity gas turbines. They were designed for use only in port, so are sized just for the hotel load, maybe 6Mw, while most of the diesels start out at 10Mw, and up to 18Mw on ships like Oasis. And the ship will have 5-6 diesel generators and only one gas turbine. QM2 has two 25Mw gas turbines and even though the turbines are still small compared to a comparable diesel engine, the generator on the end of it gets quite large.

 

While you may think the engines in the Oasis are large, they really aren't. The largest container ships have one engine that has almost as much power as all of Oasis' engines put together (80+Mw). That engine weighs over 2300 tons, and each of its 14 pistons weigh 5.5 tons each.

[mo&fran]

One thing about the Celebrity gas turbines. They were designed for use only in port, so are sized just for the hotel load, maybe 6Mw, while most of the diesels start out at 10Mw, and up to 18Mw on ships like Oasis. And the ship will have 5-6 diesel generators and only one gas turbine. QM2 has two 25Mw gas turbines and even though the turbines are still small compared to a comparable diesel engine, the generator on the end of it gets quite large.

 

While you may think the engines in the Oasis are large, they really aren't. The largest container ships have one engine that has almost as much power as all of Oasis' engines put together (80+Mw). That engine weighs over 2300 tons, and each of its 14 pistons weigh 5.5 tons each.

Millennium class ships have 2 GE gas turbine engines that generate a combined 50Mw. Turned out, they were so inefficient for generating the

power for the hotel load while in port, they installed small diesel engines for use when in port.

[rafinmd]

Oops, I thought those were the propulsion units.

 

Roy

[chengkp75]

Millennium class ships have 2 GE gas turbine engines that generate a combined 50Mw. Turned out, they were so inefficient for generating the

power for the hotel load while in port, they installed small diesel engines for use when in port.

 

That's right, they were for powering at sea, but were chosen for their clean burning while in port. But they do tend to gulp fuel, so yes, the went for diesels in port.

[SeaDog-46]

Just had a look for my Lifeboat certificate.

At that time - 1966 - I was a 3rd year cadet at Warsash Maritime College UK doing a mid apprenticship course for 6 months. Went back to sea as 4th mate & stood the 8-12 watch after clearing the English Channel. It was still pre containerization & the ships were fairly fast cargo liners. A lot of the voyages entailed frozen boneless Australian beef to US east coast for hamburgers.

My 2nd trip to sea was over 14 months & the ship did 2 return trips from Australia to USA east coast & then a 3rd that continued to Glasgow empty from Montreal. Starting pay was £29/month. No air conditioning & only some ships had radar. The good old days.

John

[Copper10-8]

Just had a look for my Lifeboat certificate.

At that time - 1966 - I was a 3rd year cadet at Warsash Maritime College UK doing a mid apprenticship course for 6 months. Went back to sea as 4th mate & stood the 8-12 watch after clearing the English Channel. It was still pre containerization & the ships were fairly fast cargo liners. A lot of the voyages entailed frozen boneless Australian beef to US east coast for hamburgers.

My 2nd trip to sea was over 14 months & the ship did 2 return trips from Australia to USA east coast & then a 3rd that continued to Glasgow empty from Montreal. Starting pay was £29/month. No air conditioning & only some ships had radar. The good old days.

John

 

A 14-month contract, wow! :eek: