Empress Engine Trouble

[Philly Steve]

I have always loved Empress and am looking forward to cruising again.

 

Isn't it true that even brand new ships tend to have their problems too? :confused:

[Clarea]

...

Isn't it true that even brand new ships tend to have their problems too? :confused:

Yes, but not to the extent that Empress has.

[IsanTom]

Ship For Sale!

[alfaeric]

Well, the late '80's and early '90's (Empress was built in '89) was the real change over time from diesel drive to diesel electric for cruise ships. While electric propulsion has been around for quite a while, in order to vary the speed of the propeller, you had to either use a DC motor, with its inefficiencies and maintenance, or run the AC propulsion system at varying frequencies, which required running the generator at varying speeds, so you had to have a separate "propulsion" bus at varying frequency, and a hotel bus at constant frequency.

 

It was not until you could build very large, high power, variable frequency AC drives, that diesel electric power really took off. These drives take the 60Hz power from the generators, convert it to DC, and then convert it back to AC electronically altering the frequency of the output AC. This allows an efficient AC motor to run at variable speed.

 

Since there are a lot of ships built prior to 1990- is it possible to change over to fully electric drive, or is the space required not feasible to change any ship?

 

I know it's *possible* to remove an engine- it was done on the Oasis. But changing over to fully electric drive seems unlikely.

[chengkp75]

Since there are a lot of ships built prior to 1990- is it possible to change over to fully electric drive, or is the space required not feasible to change any ship?

 

I know it's *possible* to remove an engine- it was done on the Oasis. But changing over to fully electric drive seems unlikely.

 

Not really practical. You would have to move the engines away from the propeller shafts and install electric motors. You would have to find space for the engines, and add in generators on their ends. You would have to run large electrical cabling from the new generators to an expanded switchboard to handle the new electrical load, and you would need to find room for the variable speed drive units. Even more than space, the cost just isn't justified.

 

Many ships have had whole engines replaced (due to the causes I mention above, Oasis was a warranty issue and it was decided it would be cost effective to renew the whole thing), or even new engines added long after construction. It just takes planning, money, and a big hole in the ship.

 

I believe you're asking about cruise ships in particular? Because diesel electric drive is almost non-existent outside of cruise ships, and doesn't make much sense for cargo ships.

[alfaeric]

Not really practical. You would have to move the engines away from the propeller shafts and install electric motors. You would have to find space for the engines, and add in generators on their ends. You would have to run large electrical cabling from the new generators to an expanded switchboard to handle the new electrical load, and you would need to find room for the variable speed drive units. Even more than space, the cost just isn't justified.

 

Many ships have had whole engines replaced (due to the causes I mention above, Oasis was a warranty issue and it was decided it would be cost effective to renew the whole thing), or even new engines added long after construction. It just takes planning, money, and a big hole in the ship.

 

I believe you're asking about cruise ships in particular? Because diesel electric drive is almost non-existent outside of cruise ships, and doesn't make much sense for cargo ships.

 

I was also thinking of general power plants being replaced- here on the Great Lakes, we still have a lot of Steamers. Who emit far more than diesels do... When talking to Captain Zini about it- he noted to us that many other ships who have to meet ECA rules share the same concerns that these ships don't have to do anything.

 

That, in addition to older, smaller cruise ships that could make their way up the St. Lawerence.

 

(as well as the Empress... :D)

 

Since oil is money- I assume that the current state of the art of diesel-electric is more efficient (aka cheaper to operate) than direct drive for cruise ships and their duty cycle requirements. Is that correct?

[chengkp75]

I was also thinking of general power plants being replaced- here on the Great Lakes, we still have a lot of Steamers. Who emit far more than diesels do... When talking to Captain Zini about it- he noted to us that many other ships who have to meet ECA rules share the same concerns that these ships don't have to do anything.

 

That, in addition to older, smaller cruise ships that could make their way up the St. Lawerence.

 

(as well as the Empress... :D)

 

Since oil is money- I assume that the current state of the art of diesel-electric is more efficient (aka cheaper to operate) than direct drive for cruise ships and their duty cycle requirements. Is that correct?

 

US ECA requirements are not pertinent to older ships that have power plants that cannot meet the requirements regardless of fuel, i.e. some older steam ships. In most cases, the cost to repower an older ship is the same or more than building a new one.

 

Ships that can burn cleaner fuel will be required to do so, whether they meet the emissions limits or not with the new fuel, and most steam ships can switch to marine diesel oil without too much trouble. Now, when it comes to the mandated IMO "tiered" emissions requirements worldwide, only ships built after the effective date are involved; most maritime requirements do not require older ships to conform.

 

Diesel electric is not really more efficient than direct diesel drive, it is more a spacial design decision. With diesel electric, the engine/generator sets can be placed anywhere in the ship, both longitudinally and transversely. So, most cruise ships place the engines 3 across, and place them around midships fore and aft. The wiring to connect the generators to the propulsion motors takes up little space. This also helps with trim of the vessel, keeping the most weight centered. Direct diesel drive, of course, requires the diesels to be more aft, and close together (in Empress' configuration with two engines side by side clutched to one shaft), and this arrangement also limits engine width, one reason Empress has two V-type engines and two in-line engines, there isn't enough space across the hull for 4 v-type engines. The engines used in Empress for direct drive are the same ones that would be used to drive a generator, and there most likely are some of the same engines onboard Empress as generator sets (simplifies spare parts).

 

But for true fuel efficiency in diesel propulsion, you need the very large, tall, slow speed engines used on cargo ships, not the smaller medium speed engines, and as I've said, these are just not desirable in a cruise ship configuration.

 

Diesel electric also allows for greater flexibility to more closely match required power (more, smaller packages), and given the larger percentage of hotel load on cruise ships to cargo ships, combining the electrical load onto a common bus for both hotel and propulsion makes sense.

[mariah9999]

Chose this ship and supposed to go out on July 9. Funny enough, I chose Royal Caribbean because I have always felt safest on their fleet and wanted to be extra cautious because I'm taking my 6 yr old nephew on his first cruise. I even picked GC & KW, because they are some of the safest ports. Feeling a bit foolish when this ship is having engine problems and ports could be changed. Hope everyone onboard is safe and still able to have fun and I hope they let us know about future cruises as soon as possible since I could possibly have to figure out something else for our vacation.

[chengkp75]

Chose this ship and supposed to go out on July 9. Funny enough, I chose Royal Caribbean because I have always felt safest on their fleet and wanted to be extra cautious because I'm taking my 6 yr old nephew on his first cruise. I even picked GC & KW, because they are some of the safest ports. Feeling a bit foolish when this ship is having engine problems and ports could be changed. Hope everyone onboard is safe and still able to have fun and I hope they let us know about future cruises as soon as possible since I could possibly have to figure out something else for our vacation.

 

There is absolutely nothing unsafe about Empress' current "engine problem". It is simply a matter of speed.

[Paulette3028]

Chose this ship and supposed to go out on July 9. Funny enough, I chose Royal Caribbean because I have always felt safest on their fleet and wanted to be extra cautious because I'm taking my 6 yr old nephew on his first cruise. I even picked GC & KW, because they are some of the safest ports. Feeling a bit foolish when this ship is having engine problems and ports could be changed. Hope everyone onboard is safe and still able to have fun and I hope they let us know about future cruises as soon as possible since I could possibly have to figure out something else for our vacation.

 

You clearly have a long list of cruises from what I can see in your signature....so what caused you to feel 'less safe' on them, if you have always felt safest on Royal.

 

The engine situation on Empress has no impact on its' safety just its' speed and ability to reach a destination on time.

[mariah9999]

There is absolutely nothing unsafe about Empress' current "engine problem". It is simply a matter of speed.

 

I understand we don't have all the details, but to say it's not unsafe is a little premature.

[mariah9999]

You clearly have a long list of cruises from what I can see in your signature....so what caused you to feel 'less safe' on them, if you have always felt safest on Royal.

 

The engine situation on Empress has no impact on its' safety just its' speed and ability to reach a destination on time.

 

 

I feel safest on Royal, especially when considering my other family members who don't have much experience cruising and someone traveling with me had a personal experience in the past in which they will not cruise on another specific line. If I was traveling alone, I'd go on any line as my history shows. You are correct, I've been on many cruises and from my personal experiences on each line I considered the ways in which issues have been handled/dealt with in the past, both in my own experience and cruising issues that have come out publicly as well in the last few years, so this time I chose Royal. And in this specific case, it depends exactly what the issue is and how serious it is, and I am not judging this current situation without more details. Anyone scheduled to cruise in the next few cruises would be concerned and want more information.

[2Shoes2Go]

OP here. The cruise has been wonderful. We will be in KW tomorrow. You would never guess there is anything amiss about our speed. This little ship is so pretty and intimate. The officers and crew very friendly.

There have been a few nice extras, which we didn't expect. A cocktail party at sail away for Suites, Pinnacles and D plus, a very nice luncheon today with officers for P, D plus 340 and up, and a couple of free drink parties for all levels. Lobster tonight (on a five day), and a seafood buffet tomorrow night up in Windjammer (w lobster)! They are putting more into food and beverages, we've been told, because of the lack of DL and CL.

Empress does not feel crowded, to us, at all. Elevators are fairly quick. There are so many windows! Love the ocean views everywhere. Two full length mirrors in our OV cabin; I'm in love!:) Restrooms plentiful and clean. Comfy seating everywhere.

[mariah9999]

So glad to hear you are doing well and that there are some nice extras for you while you are onboard! Take care!

[chengkp75]

I understand we don't have all the details, but to say it's not unsafe is a little premature.

 

Well, given my 40 years as a marine engineer, all of them aboard diesel powered ships, I have to say that with the information presented on this thread, I can safely say "there is nothing unsafe about the Empress" from the standpoint of this engine problem.

 

I have no idea how many cruises you've been on (I suppress signatures, 'cause I really don't care), but as I've stated in a previous post on this thread:

 

"Many people don't know that the diesels on the cruise ships are overhauled while still in service, and an overhaul lasts 2-3 weeks, so the odds are pretty good that most everyone here on CC has cruised on a ship with one engine down for maintenance the entire cruise, and never knew it. Ships are generally designed with more generating power in the diesels than is needed to power the lights and provide enough speed to meet the itinerary, and still have one engine down."

 

This has applied to RCI as well as any other cruise line. Engines require maintenance in order to remain operating flawlessly, so engines are taken out of service all the time. This engine is out of service.

 

There has been no fire, no explosion, and no catastrophic failure of the engine. How do I know this? Because neither the classification society, which is the cruise line's insurance underwriter and gives the ship its certificate of safety, without which it doesn't sail, nor the local maritime authorities in the Bahamas has detained the ship. As the OP states, they don't notice any difference in speed, and that could be because of two reasons: one, they don't need full speed for the current itinerary, or two, they have already fixed the problem and the engine is back running.

 

Now, could the itinerary be affected for your cruise, sure, but that can happen at any time. However, while a change in itinerary is disappointing, it is a customer service problem, which I try not to address here on CC, it is not a safety problem.

Edited June 28, 2016 by chengkp75

[ryano]

[quote name='mariah9999']I understand we don't have all the details, but to say it's not unsafe is a little premature.[/QUOTE]

The man has 40 years in the marine engineer field.

Id be way more concerned about no AC, non flushing toilets, subpar food choices and other problems that has plagued this old gal than her seaworthiness. Edited June 28, 2016 by ryano

[Anton]

[quote name='chengkp75']

Empress has a rather unique propulsion system in that it uses 4 diesel engines coupled directly to the two propeller shafts[/QUOTE]

Is it direct drive or do the diesels connect to the shafts via reduction gears?

[chengkp75]

[quote name='Anton']Is it direct drive or do the diesels connect to the shafts via reduction gears?[/QUOTE]

It is via reduction gears, for two reasons. The engines turn at around 400-800 rpm, which is too fast for a propeller, so gears are used. Each engine has a clutch to the reduction gears, and the reduction gears combine the output of the two engines to the one propeller shaft.

While not technically correct, this speed range for an engine is considered "medium speed" (the actual classification depends on piston speed not rotational speed).

The only direct drive engines are the "slow speed" engines that run at a maximum of 130 rpm, and most at 98 rpm. Edited June 28, 2016 by chengkp75

[Scotty G]

[quote name='2Shoes2Go']OP here. The cruise has been wonderful. We will be in KW tomorrow. You would never guess there is anything amiss about our speed. This little ship is so pretty and intimate. The officers and crew very friendly.
There have been a few nice extras, which we didn't expect. A cocktail party at sail away for Suites, Pinnacles and D plus, a very nice luncheon today with officers for P, D plus 340 and up, and a couple of free drink parties for all levels. Lobster tonight (on a five day), and a seafood buffet tomorrow night up in Windjammer (w lobster)! They are putting more into food and beverages, we've been told, because of the lack of DL and CL.
Empress does not feel crowded, to us, at all. Elevators are fairly quick. There are so many windows! Love the ocean views everywhere. Two full length mirrors in our OV cabin; I'm in love!:) Restrooms plentiful and clean. Comfy seating everywhere.[/QUOTE]

Excellent news!!!

[mariah9999]

[quote name='chengkp75']Well, given my 40 years as a marine engineer, all of them aboard diesel powered ships, I have to say that with the information presented on this thread, I can safely say "[B]there is nothing unsafe about the Empress[/B]" from the standpoint of this engine problem.

I have no idea how many cruises you've been on (I suppress signatures, 'cause I really don't care), but as I've stated in a previous post on this thread:

"Many people don't know that the diesels on the cruise ships are overhauled while still in service, and an overhaul lasts 2-3 weeks, so the odds are pretty good that most everyone here on CC has cruised on a ship with one engine down for maintenance the entire cruise, and never knew it. Ships are generally designed with more generating power in the diesels than is needed to power the lights and provide enough speed to meet the itinerary, and still have one engine down."

This has applied to RCI as well as [B]any[/B] other cruise line. Engines require maintenance in order to remain operating flawlessly, so engines are taken out of service all the time. This engine is out of service.

There has been no fire, no explosion, and no catastrophic failure of the engine. How do I know this? Because neither the classification society, which is the cruise line's insurance underwriter and gives the ship its certificate of safety, without which it doesn't sail, nor the local maritime authorities in the Bahamas has detained the ship. As the OP states, they don't notice any difference in speed, and that could be because of two reasons: one, they don't need full speed for the current itinerary, or two, they have already fixed the problem and the engine is back running.

Now, could the itinerary be affected for your cruise, sure, but that can happen at any time. However, while a change in itinerary is disappointing, it is a customer service problem, which I try not to address here on CC, it is not a safety problem.[/QUOTE]

Having 40 years experience doesn't excuse snarkiness. I was just expressing my concerns...

[Clarea]

[quote name='mariah9999']Having 40 years experience doesn't excuse snarkiness. I was just expressing my concerns...[/quote]
There was no snarkiness, you misinterpreted.

[Scotty G]

[quote name='clarea']There was no snarkiness, you misinterpreted.[/QUOTE]

Agree 100%

[JohnSnowGOT]

[quote name='2Shoes2Go']OP here. The cruise has been wonderful. We will be in KW tomorrow. You would never guess there is anything amiss about our speed. This little ship is so pretty and intimate. The officers and crew very friendly.
There have been a few nice extras, which we didn't expect. A cocktail party at sail away for Suites, Pinnacles and D plus, a very nice luncheon today with officers for P, D plus 340 and up, and a couple of free drink parties for all levels. Lobster tonight (on a five day), and a seafood buffet tomorrow night up in Windjammer (w lobster)! They are putting more into food and beverages, we've been told, because of the lack of DL and CL.
Empress does not feel crowded, to us, at all. Elevators are fairly quick. There are so many windows! Love the ocean views everywhere. Two full length mirrors in our OV cabin; I'm in love!:) Restrooms plentiful and clean. Comfy seating everywhere.[/QUOTE]


Oh wow this welcome good news!!!
While on the Oasis 3 weeks ago we were docked next to the Empress in Cozumel......She looked ok from the peer. Looked almost charming, unique and fun. However, looking down on her from the top deck of the Oasis,,,,not so charming. Several roofs were rusty, the deck areas looked dirty and the POOL WAS GREEN!!!!!! seriously it was green! shame Shame Shame.
This observation really ruined me for booking a cruise on the Empress. So your post brings some hope. Thank you

[cruiser fanatic]

[quote name='mariah9999']Having 40 years experience doesn't excuse snarkiness. I was just expressing my concerns...[/QUOTE]

What snarkiness?? He was just stating the facts.

[evelyn51]

[quote name='mariah9999']Having 40 years experience doesn't excuse snarkiness. I was just expressing my concerns...[/QUOTE]

I've come to understand that Chengkp75 knows his stuff, and likes to put cruisers concerns to rest. :)