Gratuities and fare structure

[keithm]

You are on an AMERICAN ship. The fact that is is based or cruises in Australia does not make it Australian.

 

I guess arguments don´t really help in this international problem. Unfortunately simple and pathetic greed is often excused and hidden behind "culture" and a "let´s fight the system" attitude.

 

"Live and let live" is a motto easy to follow. As long as I am able to go on a cruise and as long as I am on the receiving end on a cruise I say I live pretty good. Not thinking twice about showing some gatitude towards the ones who make this life better.

My mother would refer to you as a "good Egg". The world is a better place with more people like you.

[tassie cruiser]

No need to contact the concierge desk to pay gratuities--they can be given in person.

 

And let's take a closer look at my theory...

The gratuities don't go to just the waiter. They go to the waiter, the people who run the food, the sommelier, and the people who work behind the scenes.

 

These people work for seven months at a time, away from their families, and their children. Every day they work hard to make each guest feel special and welcome. And by every day, I mean every day for seven months with no day off working 11-12 hours/day across a split shift meaning they never have more than 6-7 hours to sleep at any given time in their bunkbed in a small, windowless room they share with a complete stranger.

 

Yes, I think anyone willing to do that deserves a good paycheck.

 

But it isn't $20/day they receive. It's $13.50. And that goes not just to the wait staff but to the cabin attendant, asst. cabin attendant, and others we probably don't know about.

 

All that wonderful service, and people decline even with the knowledge that this is how these friendly, helpful, hardworking people are paid. People take advantage of the service, bask in the wonderful treatment, and then take money out of the pockets of the staff.

 

As I said before, if you can afford the cruise, please tip the staff. They depend on it.

 

 

I read on these threads a while back (will try and find) someone put up their wages. I was gob smacked:eek: it was something like $1500 p/month room steward, (with out tips) $1800 waiter etc. keep in mind this is US, this is with no rent/accom to pay, no electricity, no food.... when I actually thought about it, it was very very good, hours they worked, wasnt what I had seen reported, like a room steward, yes, the trolleys are in corridors early, then they go off for breaks, then back, then off again, on and off all day.. quite a lot of them had a few homes back home, a business, no wonder they are lining up to work on the ships and stay for 10-15 years.

This is the jobs they want, they apply for, we don't get tips for just doing our jobs, that's what we are employed for, to do a job, they are just like us, employed to do a job.

I agree if someone goes above and beyond to make your holiday great, then a tip is great, as that's what I thought tips were, to recognise someone not just doing the job they are employed to do, but doing it in such a way, the passengers has an awesome experience. I could never get my head around pre paying grats, how can you pre pay tips, pay upfront even before you go.. paying for a service before you get it, that's like booking a restaurant next month and paying extra before you even get there, without knowing what you are going to get. If all the tips were pre paid, would this give the staff any incentive, I would think not, same pay no matter what. I guess at the end of the day we need to agree to disagree.. and ALL cruise lines in Aus are now doing the right thing by the people that will be cruising, majority being Australians. For all the lines to be doing the same thing , this might tell you something. We now have it right for everyone concerned.

If we are cruising in US then we expect to have to pay tips, because that's just they way it is, we know that and expect that. :)

[Fish Lover]

I read on these threads a while back (will try and find) someone put up their wages. I was gob smacked:eek: it was something like $1500 p/month room steward, (with out tips) $1800 waiter etc. keep in mind this is US, this is with no rent/accom to pay, no electricity, no food.... when I actually thought about it, it was very very good, hours they worked, wasnt what I had seen reported, like a room steward, yes, the trolleys are in corridors early, then they go off for breaks, then back, then off again, on and off all day.. quite a lot of them had a few homes back home, a business, no wonder they are lining up to work on the ships and stay for 10-15 years.

This is the jobs they want, they apply for, we don't get tips for just doing our jobs, that's what we are employed for, to do a job, they are just like us, employed to do a job.

I agree if someone goes above and beyond to make your holiday great, then a tip is great, as that's what I thought tips were, to recognise someone not just doing the job they are employed to do, but doing it in such a way, the passengers has an awesome experience. I could never get my head around pre paying grats, how can you pre pay tips, pay upfront even before you go.. paying for a service before you get it, that's like booking a restaurant next month and paying extra before you even get there, without knowing what you are going to get. If all the tips were pre paid, would this give the staff any incentive, I would think not, same pay no matter what. I guess at the end of the day we need to agree to disagree.. and ALL cruise lines in Aus are now doing the right thing by the people that will be cruising, majority being Australians. For all the lines to be doing the same thing , this might tell you something. We now have it right for everyone concerned.

If we are cruising in US then we expect to have to pay tips, because that's just they way it is, we know that and expect that. :)

 

Well at least in one respect (and I suspect maybe a couple others), your facts are incorrect. The staff MUST maintain an on shore residence (and not just a mailing address). I believe that proof is required (lease, etc). I know this because my son was offered a position (albeit as part of the entertainment crew), and was told this is required of all staff. Couple that with how much time is spent away from home AND the average work day (14-15 hours, frequently broken up very small rest periods throughout the day) and number of work days (non whole days off at all for the entire contract) the earnings per hour are paltry. Your analysis leaves a lot to be desired in order to provide a complete picture.

[PostcardJar]

Well at least in one respect (and I suspect maybe a couple others), your facts are incorrect. The staff MUST maintain an on shore residence (and not just a mailing address). I believe that proof is required (lease, etc). I know this because my son was offered a position (albeit as part of the entertainment crew), and was told this is required of all staff. Couple that with how much time is spent away from home AND the average work day (14-15 hours, frequently broken up very small rest periods throughout the day) and number of work days (non whole days off at all for the entire contract) the earnings per hour are paltry. Your analysis leaves a lot to be desired in order to provide a complete picture.

 

Agreed. Remember that many working on ships are supporting a family at home. No number of free meals and free housing (in a windowless room with a bunkbed and a stranger) for the worker can provide for the child of the worker at home who needs a roof and a meal.

 

The bottom line is this: Celebrity is a US based line, and gratuities are a part of the salary (as they are for many service workers in the US) per the culture and customs in the US. Given this fact, it is impossible to apply a different culture's set of expectations and have the workers receive a fair wage no matter how much you want to do so.

 

If you want to show your appreciation for excellent service, you give more than the minimum gratuity. But the minimum gratuity is what is needed to ensure the workers are compensated fairly. I'm glad that X is including the gratuity out of Australia in the cruise fare if that country is one where gratuities aren't typically given and is a place where people remove gratuities from their bill. The staff deserve to be paid.

[sloopsailor]

..... I could never get my head around pre paying grats, how can you pre pay tips, pay upfront even before you go.. paying for a service before you get it, that's like booking a restaurant next month and paying extra before you even get there, without knowing what you are going to get.

 

Have you ever purchased an item online? If you have, you paid in advance for something you weren't going to get for several days, and without knowing the condition it will be in when it arrives.

 

Have you ever purchased a cruise? If you have you paid months in advance for something you have to wait weeks for, all without knowing how it will actually turn out - without knowing if the weather will be good, for instance. Or what type of entertainment might be on your cruise.

 

There are numerous examples of paying in advance for something you haven't gotten yet. Using this as an excuse to complain about paying tips is a bit of a stretch. :rolleyes:

 

If all the tips were pre paid, would this give the staff any incentive, I would think not, same pay no matter what. I guess at the end of the day we need to agree to disagree.. and ALL cruise lines in Aus are now doing the right thing by the people that will be cruising, majority being Australians. For all the lines to be doing the same thing , this might tell you something. We now have it right for everyone concerned.

If we are cruising in US then we expect to have to pay tips, because that's just they way it is, we know that and expect that. :)

 

You question the wisdom of paying gratuities in advance, assuming that the service level will deteriorate when you do. And then, you say the cruise lines are doing the right thing by having gratuities included in the base fare for cruises in your area, which is also paying them in advance. You can't have it both ways. Either it is a bad idea, or a good one. It can't be both.

 

Or is it only a good idea when it is done only the way you Aussies want done? And a bad idea when it is done the way the rest of us do it? :confused: The results are the same, after all.

 

Seems that you are the only losers in this situation. You get what you want, but by giving up control over how much gratuities you actually have to pay since you no longer can remove them for whatever imaginary reason you come up with. The crew wins. The cruise line wins. The rest of us win because it doesn't really change anything since we graciously pay it eventually. ;)

 

Not much of a victory, IMHO.

Edited December 4, 2016 by sloopsailor

[tassie cruiser]

Lol. You are funny :p

[mrs and mrs]

If we are cruising in US then we expect to have to pay tips, because that's just they way it is, we know that and expect that. :)

 

And this factual statement will constantly be over-looked, by those who seem to have plenty to say about what is going to happen in Australia.:confused:

[fshagan]

I read on these threads a while back (will try and find) someone put up their wages. I was gob smacked:eek: it was something like $1500 p/month room steward, (with out tips) $1800 waiter etc.

 

That may have been me; you can look up the self-reported salaries of people on glassdoor.com for CCL, RCCL and NCL lines.

 

But, I think that includes the tip income. The workers receive a contracted amount and I think the tips are probably handled the same way incentive bonuses are handled at several companies I worked at: your paycheck included a line for salary and a line for the incentive bonus that didn't vary much over the weeks until it is re-calculated at the quarter. The cruise ship workers would have salary plus a gratuity line that wouldn't be taxed if they were from a country that doesn't tax tips. The range for waiters or servers on Celebrity is at about $1,000 USD per month. For countries like the Philippines you can multiply it by about 4 to get what an equivalent wage in the US would be (about $4,000 a month, very close to the median household income for Americans).

 

But if you make the on-board crew claim all of that income as wages and not tips, then they will pay a fairly progressive (steep) income tax on that money, and will take 20 to 30% less home. Here in the west we don't understand this because all of our income is taxed.

 

But, I'm sure there's a way to do it so that the workers get the same net pay and it's also easier for people to understand the pricing of the product.

[Fish Lover]

And this factual statement will constantly be over-looked, by those who seem to have plenty to say about what is going to happen in Australia.:confused:

 

You keep overlooking a key consideration. Celebrity is an American based company. Not Australian. In fact, I couldn't find any Australian based cruise lines. So, given that the majority of passengers are also American,and are subject to the new booking policy for affected cruises, I would think that you should think twice (or three times, if you need to) about your statements. Celebrity merely sells booking in Australia (as it does worldwide), and has port stops there. Hardly enough to support your statements that no one but Australians should have an opinion.

 

If you are referencing tipping in general in Australia, you said yourself it is not expected but it is accepted. Height of greediness.

[WpgCruise]

I'm sure there's a way to do it so that the workers get the same net pay

 

There is a way to make sure the workers get the same net pay from wages as Tips (as wages are taxed and Tips are not) and that's to increase the daily amount from $13.50 to $17.55. or a 30% increase, which for sake of argument is the amount of the tax on their wage.

 

The "Include the Tips with the Cruise cost" advocates don't seem to understand that wages are taxed, Tips are not. For the workers to get the same net pay, (probably more as there won't be the people taking the Tips off) an increase in Tips is the only way as the Cruise lines won't be absorbing the cost, it will be passed along to the customer.

 

So, to those who wanted the Tips included in the cost, the result will be a higher price for everyone.

 

Think the Company will absorb the cost because Princess is doing it now ? I suspect now that all Companies in the Market are playing from the same base, you'll see costs increase across all brands.

[mrs and mrs]

You keep overlooking a key consideration. Celebrity is an American based company. Not Australian. In fact, I couldn't find any Australian based cruise lines. So, given that the majority of passengers are also American,and are subject to the new booking policy for affected cruises, I would think that you should think twice (or three times, if you need to) about your statements. Celebrity merely sells booking in Australia (as it does worldwide), and has port stops there. Hardly enough to support your statements that no one but Australians should have an opinion.

 

If you are referencing tipping in general in Australia, you said yourself it is not expected but it is accepted. Height of greediness.

 

That's funny between 28 dec 2016 and april 2018, there are 28 celebrity cruises departing Australia, with 16 returning. We do thank-you for contributing to our GDP as you state the majority of passengers are American.

 

Now you seem to have no trouble accusing or abusing others ie with your greediness statement, but it appears you cant take it.

 

But whats worse is you have mis-quoted me, I actually stated this (but not unacceptable)

But don't let the truth stand in the way of a good discussion.

 

If its any help we love fish as well, or fishy things.(squid, etc, basically marine animals)

Edited December 4, 2016 by mrs and mrs
spelling

[GUT2407]

You keep overlooking a key consideration. Celebrity is an American based company. Not Australian. In fact, I couldn't find any Australian based cruise lines. So, given that the majority of passengers are also American,and are subject to the new booking policy for affected cruises, I would think that you should think twice (or three times, if you need to) about your statements. Celebrity merely sells booking in Australia (as it does worldwide), and has port stops there. Hardly enough to support your statements that no one but Australians should have an opinion.

 

If you are referencing tipping in general in Australia, you said yourself it is not expected but it is accepted. Height of greediness.

 

Not sure if you've ever sailed in Australia, but I guarantee you the majority of passengers are NOT Americans on most cruises (Celebrity or otherwise) that originate here.

[sanger727]

Here is the problem that I have with this. First you cruised and were left tip envelopes requesting you tip everyone. Then you cruised and were told that you would be charged a standard amount to account for the necessary tips. It's all separate and acknowledged then that the tips are taken care of.

 

Now that they are rolling the tips into the fares for certain countries, then soon enough they will extend it to all countries.

 

Now it turns into the all inclusive resorts where they say "gratuities included", but in fact, the crew sees no part of that, and they expect you to tip in cash again.

 

Personally, I like the DSC and would prefer it stay. Then I know that a certain amount of what I"m paying is set aside so the crew is properly paid.

[Ronin23]

You are on an AMERICAN ship. The fact that is is based or cruises in Australia does not make it Australian.

 

I guess arguments don´t really help in this international problem. Unfortunately simple and pathetic greed is often excused and hidden behind "culture" and a "let´s fight the system" attitude.

 

"Live and let live" is a motto easy to follow. As long as I am able to go on a cruise and as long as I am on the receiving end on a cruise I say I live pretty good. Not thinking twice about showing some gatitude towards the ones who make this life better.

 

The fact it's an American ship is irrelevant. Doesn't the fact all the cruise lines are applying this initiative in Australia tell you something?

 

If you are worried about American crew not getting their tips that they would get elsewhere....well how many crew are American? Next to none.

 

I never said it's an Australian ship. However it's sailing out of Australia and will be filled with mostly Australians. So the cruise line does the smart thing and adopt the preferences of the market it's operating in.

 

It's not rocket science. Relax, nobody is robbing you of your right to tip for services rendered if you wish.

[Ronin23]

You keep overlooking a key consideration. Celebrity is an American based company. Not Australian. In fact, I couldn't find any Australian based cruise lines. So, given that the majority of passengers are also American,and are subject to the new booking policy for affected cruises, I would think that you should think twice (or three times, if you need to) about your statements. Celebrity merely sells booking in Australia (as it does worldwide), and has port stops there. Hardly enough to support your statements that no one but Australians should have an opinion.

 

If you are referencing tipping in general in Australia, you said yourself it is not expected but it is accepted. Height of greediness.

 

Ah sorry, the majority of passengers on cruises out of Australia are not Americans I can assure you. They would in fact be Australian. Kind of makes sense don't you think?

[GUT2407]

Ah sorry, the majority of passengers on cruises out of Australia are not Americans I can assure you. They would in fact be Australian. Kind of makes sense don't you think?

 

And they keep stating they're American ships.

 

Not according to the flag they fly.

[GUT2407]

And they keep stating they're American ships.

 

Not according to the flag they fly.

 

Places like

 

Malta

Liberia

Bahamas

[mrs and mrs]

And they keep stating they're American ships.

 

Not according to the flag they fly.

 

And the flag they fly is Maltese and Ecudorian.

With a head office in Miami, Florida.

[tassie cruiser]

The fact it's an American ship is irrelevant. Doesn't the fact all the cruise lines are applying this initiative in Australia tell you something?

 

If you are worried about American crew not getting their tips that they would get elsewhere....well how many crew are American? Next to none.

 

I never said it's an Australian ship. However it's sailing out of Australia and will be filled with mostly Australians. So the cruise line does the smart thing and adopt the preferences of the market it's operating in.

 

It's not rocket science. Relax, nobody is robbing you of your right to tip for services rendered if you wish.

 

 

Glad to read a post that makes sense, they are far and few between on here. Where's that "like" button when you want it. :D.

[markeb]

Wow! How is this still going?

 

I (an American) find this extremely simple: The Miami lawyers and accountants figured out a way to include "gratuities" in the cost of a cruise (in Australia) such that it didn't create a compensation problem for their employees. They'll hold cost constant for now, probably sneak it up over time, to offset any decreased revenue to the cruise line. Some unknown percentage of passengers in Australia will add some unknown percentage of "gratuities" that will increase some unknown percentage of staff's compensation.

 

I've never done more than round up to the next AUD in Australia, and I've never been chased down the street for doing so. And I suspect there are very few Australians on this board who don't tip in the US, because all the tour guides tell them it's normal, even though they think it's stupid (and it probably is) that service employees receive a significant amount of indirect compensation from those they serve rather than from their employer.

 

Although, the truly cynical part of me believes that tipping threads simply drive up statistics to increase advertising revenue...

 

Can we have a serious discussion on something important, like Fosters is $h!te and VB is at least marginally drinkable? Or American Football versus rugby versus Australian football versus football? :)

[GUT2407]

Wow! How is this still going?

 

I (an American) find this extremely simple: The Miami lawyers and accountants figured out a way to include "gratuities" in the cost of a cruise (in Australia) such that it didn't create a compensation problem for their employees. They'll hold cost constant for now, probably sneak it up over time, to offset any decreased revenue to the cruise line. Some unknown percentage of passengers in Australia will add some unknown percentage of "gratuities" that will increase some unknown percentage of staff's compensation.

 

I've never done more than round up to the next AUD in Australia, and I've never been chased down the street for doing so. And I suspect there are very few Australians on this board who don't tip in the US, because all the tour guides tell them it's normal, even though they think it's stupid (and it probably is) that service employees receive a significant amount of indirect compensation from those they serve rather than from their employer.

 

Although, the truly cynical part of me believes that tipping threads simply drive up statistics to increase advertising revenue...

 

Can we have a serious discussion on something important, like Fosters is $h!te and VB is at least marginally drinkable? Or American Football versus rugby versus Australian football versus football? :)

 

Well you're right about Fosters, and League is the only real sport, so there we go the world is sorted.

[markeb]

Well you're right about Fosters, and League is the only real sport, so there we go the world is sorted.

 

See. Isn't that simple?

 

(Does anyone actually drink Fosters in Australia?)

 

Edited to add: Other than Americans?

Edited December 4, 2016 by markeb

[GUT2407]

See. Isn't that simple?

 

(Does anyone actually drink Fosters in Australia?)

 

Edited to add: Other than Americans?

 

Not that I know of.

 

My dad spent over 50 years delivering beer, out of a 10 ton load there might be a dozen cartons, if that.

[markeb]

Not that I know of.

 

My dad spent over 50 years delivering beer, out of a 10 ton load there might be a dozen cartons, if that.

 

If I ever get a chance to take a cruise from Australia (which I'd love to do), and you're onboard, we'll have to discuss and sample some good beer then.

 

Although, the next time I fly around the world to Australia, what I really want to do is get outside of Sydney and Melbourne and actually see the country!

[Ronin23]

And they keep stating they're American ships.

 

Not according to the flag they fly.

 

The irony is that they do everything to avoid being American. Register their ships abroad, employ staff from lower socioeconomic countries, captains etc from Europe...

Edited December 4, 2016 by Ronin23