Gratuities and fare structure

[GUT2407]

If I ever get a chance to take a cruise from Australia (which I'd love to do), and you're onboard, we'll have to discuss and sample some good beer then.

 

Although, the next time I fly around the world to Australia, what I really want to do is get outside of Sydney and Melbourne and actually see the country!

 

I don't drink nowadays but be happy to chat about it.

 

And yep you need to get out of the city to see the real country, even though most live in the city and on the coast, seems to me Sydney and Melbourne now days aren't much different to about 1000 other cities around the world. But as Mrs Gut isn't allowed fly anymore it's been a while since I've seen the others.

[Adidas4fun]

The irony is that they do everything to avoid being American. Register their ships abroad, employ staff from lower socioeconomic countries, captains etc from Europe...

 

SERIOUSLY? You expect Americans to understand irony?

 

They dont even understand tipping. Witness how many tipping threads are started by Americans asking what to do!

[GUT2407]

SERIOUSLY? You expect Americans to understand irony?

 

They dont even understand tipping. Witness how many tipping threads are started by Americans asking what to do!

 

Funny isn't it a few a day "How much should I tip....." yet let someone else (say from Aus or UK) say anything about the issue, just watch for the abuse to start.

[teamflames]

I read on these threads a while back (will try and find) someone put up their wages. I was gob smacked:eek: it was something like $1500 p/month room steward, (with out tips) $1800 waiter etc. keep in mind this is US, this is with no rent/accom to pay, no electricity, no food.... when I actually thought about it, it was very very good, hours they worked, wasnt what I had seen reported, like a room steward, yes, the trolleys are in corridors early, then they go off for breaks, then back, then off again, on and off all day.. quite a lot of them had a few homes back home, a business, no wonder they are lining up to work on the ships and stay for 10-15 years.

 

This is the jobs they want, they apply for, we don't get tips for just doing our jobs, that's what we are employed for, to do a job, they are just like us, employed to do a job.

 

I agree if someone goes above and beyond to make your holiday great, then a tip is great, as that's what I thought tips were, to recognise someone not just doing the job they are employed to do, but doing it in such a way, the passengers has an awesome experience. I could never get my head around pre paying grats, how can you pre pay tips, pay upfront even before you go.. paying for a service before you get it, that's like booking a restaurant next month and paying extra before you even get there, without knowing what you are going to get. If all the tips were pre paid, would this give the staff any incentive, I would think not, same pay no matter what. I guess at the end of the day we need to agree to disagree.. and ALL cruise lines in Aus are now doing the right thing by the people that will be cruising, majority being Australians. For all the lines to be doing the same thing , this might tell you something. We now have it right for everyone concerned.

 

If we are cruising in US then we expect to have to pay tips, because that's just they way it is, we know that and expect that. :)

 

 

I am Australian, but am now confused. I thought the point of this thread is that the "tips" are being prepaid by incorporating them into the cruise fare??? So you are pre paying them???

Call these service charges what you want but you are now paying them simply without seeing them as an extra later.

Btw we pay them but generally never tip extra (only once or twice for extraordinary service). We have found on our recent connie cruises that the service has been amazing but the friendliness (not the work levels) drops significantly on the final morning.

 

 

 

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[mrs and mrs]

Wow! How is this still going?

 

I (an American) find this extremely simple: The Miami lawyers and accountants figured out a way to include "gratuities" in the cost of a cruise (in Australia) such that it didn't create a compensation problem for their employees. They'll hold cost constant for now, probably sneak it up over time, to offset any decreased revenue to the cruise line. Some unknown percentage of passengers in Australia will add some unknown percentage of "gratuities" that will increase some unknown percentage of staff's compensation.

 

I've never done more than round up to the next AUD in Australia, and I've never been chased down the street for doing so. And I suspect there are very few Australians on this board who don't tip in the US, because all the tour guides tell them it's normal, even though they think it's stupid (and it probably is) that service employees receive a significant amount of indirect compensation from those they serve rather than from their employer.

 

Although, the truly cynical part of me believes that tipping threads simply drive up statistics to increase advertising revenue...

 

Can we have a serious discussion on something important, like Fosters is $h!te and VB is at least marginally drinkable? Or American Football versus rugby versus Australian football versus football? :)

 

Yahh finally an American, putting faith back into peoples views of Americans, now listen hear don't be sucked in by those city slicking foster drinking townies out there in sidaknee and moleborn, and even newy-castled. You come on out here baby, where the stars sparkle at night, the air is clean, and the fruit fly is even scared to fly.

[sloopsailor]

The fact it's an American ship is irrelevant. Doesn't the fact all the cruise lines are applying this initiative in Australia tell you something?

 

If you are worried about American crew not getting their tips that they would get elsewhere....well how many crew are American? Next to none.

 

I never said it's an Australian ship. However it's sailing out of Australia and will be filled with mostly Australians. So the cruise line does the smart thing and adopt the preferences of the market it's operating in.

 

It's not rocket science. Relax, nobody is robbing you of your right to tip for services rendered if you wish.

 

You seem to have missed the real reason they are doing this. It is because so many Australians removed the tips that the crew ended up with much less than typical income in the Australian market. In an act of compassion, or maybe simply to retain good employees, the cruise lines have been forced to come up with a system that blocks the removal of tips by certain - ahem - cultures. It has nothing to do with bending to the will of Australians. It is only about taking care of their employees. I'll bet if the typical Australian knew they were still paying the tips, but now could not remove them for whatever reason they conjure up, they would be quite displeased.

 

You are giving yourselves way too much credit. :rolleyes:

 

There is a member here who is very familiar with the cruise industry, having worked in many different capacities on several different cruise lines. He in the past has shared posts that have been quite specific about which countrymen are generous with tips and which aren't. From his experience, your countrymen don't make a good impression at all. :eek:

 

Personally, I have enjoyed my two vacation visits to Australia and New Zealand, and hope to visit again. But, when in your country, I follow the customs in the establishments that I visit and don't tip - ever. It's a shame that you can't see fit to do the same when cruising on an American owned cruise ship. Yes, AMERICAN. It is owned by an AMERICAN company, run by AMERICAN executives, and traded as an AMERICAN company on stock exchanges. As the saying goes: If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it must be a duck. It is an AMERICAN cruise ship. Period. No matter where it happens to be at the moment.

Edited December 4, 2016 by sloopsailor

[teamflames]

You seem to have missed the real reason they are doing this. It is because so many Australians removed the tips that the crew ended up with much less than typical income in the Australian market. In an act of compassion, or maybe simply to retain good employees, the cruise lines have been forced to come up with a system that blocks the removal of tips by certain - ahem - cultures. It has nothing to do with bending to the will of Australians. It is only about taking care of their employees. I'll bet if the typical Australian knew they were still paying the tips, but now could not remove them for whatever reason they conjure up, they would be quite displeased.

 

You are giving yourselves way too much credit. :rolleyes:

 

There is a member here who is very familiar with the cruise industry, having worked in many different capacities on several different cruise lines. He in the past has shared posts that have been quite specific about which countrymen are generous with tips and which aren't. From his experience, your countrymen don't make a good impression at all. :eek:

 

 

As an Australian, I find all these comments from both sides really unhelpful.

I have met many fellow Aussies onboard and some remove and some don't.

I personally would rather the gratuities built into my cruise fare, my view is there is so much more that goes into my cruise experience then simply my room attendant and waiter. Honestly the bar service has a much bigger impact and you can't remove their tips and management is even more important and they are not paid on this structure.

This mentality of we are bigger tippers is also confused by the fact that traditionally American passengers always paid less, had more obc and were often given gratuities as a perk. These benefits are only now just opening up to non Americans and even now Brits are still given much less flexibility in booking.

Americans regularly want to remove dsc and tips personally (don't pretend this is to tip more); regularly ask if they can tip with obc; pre dsc dining rooms were notoriously empty Americans included; regularly seem confused on tipping policies etc. ... It is not one positive size fits all.

Not do I like general comments about how great the work is and the demand for it ... We see few Americans or Australians agreeing to work those conditions.

This is not a simple issue (not all that important either) and it is not simply a cultural difference one.

Let's face it though these profitable cruise companies are not moral compasses (dumping in Alaska, avoiding tax etc) and don't seem to be going broke over their dsc policies ... They must get a real laugh over reading these threads.

 

 

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[GUT2407]

You seem to have missed the real reason they are doing this. It is because so many Australians removed the tips that the crew ended up with much less than typical income in the Australian market. In an act of compassion, or maybe simply to retain good employees, the cruise lines have been forced to come up with a system that blocks the removal of tips by certain - ahem - cultures. It has nothing to do with bending to the will of Australians. It is only about taking care of their employees. I'll bet if the typical Australian knew they were still paying the tips, but now could not remove them for whatever reason they conjure up, they would be quite displeased.

 

You are giving yourselves way too much credit. :rolleyes:

 

There is a member here who is very familiar with the cruise industry, having worked in many different capacities on several different cruise lines. He in the past has shared posts that have been quite specific about which countrymen are generous with tips and which aren't. From his experience, your countrymen don't make a good impression at all. :eek:

 

Personally, I have enjoyed my two vacation visits to Australia and New Zealand, and hope to visit again. But, when in your country, I follow the customs in the establishments that I visit and don't tip - ever. It's a shame that you can't see fit to do the same when cruising on an American owned cruise ship. Yes, AMERICAN. It is owned by an AMERICAN company, run by AMERICAN executives, and traded as an AMERICAN company on stock exchanges. As the saying goes: If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it must be a duck. It is an AMERICAN cruise ship. Period. No matter where it happens to be at the moment.

 

Well why don't they carry the Stars and Stripes if they're so true blue.

[mrs and mrs]

Almost give up, I simply refuse to believe that this persons points are indicative of Americans.

Some-one please tell me I'm right.

PLEASE.

[Ladesign]

You seem to have missed the real reason they are doing this. It is because so many Australians removed the tips that the crew ended up with much less than typical income in the Australian market. In an act of compassion, or maybe simply to retain good employees, the cruise lines have been forced to come up with a system that blocks the removal of tips by certain - ahem - cultures. It has nothing to do with bending to the will of Australians. It is only about taking care of their employees. I'll bet if the typical Australian knew they were still paying the tips, but now could not remove them for whatever reason they conjure up, they would be quite displeased.

 

You are giving yourselves way too much credit. :rolleyes:

 

There is a member here who is very familiar with the cruise industry, having worked in many different capacities on several different cruise lines. He in the past has shared posts that have been quite specific about which countrymen are generous with tips and which aren't. From his experience, your countrymen don't make a good impression at all. :eek:

 

Personally, I have enjoyed my two vacation visits to Australia and New Zealand, and hope to visit again. But, when in your country, I follow the customs in the establishments that I visit and don't tip - ever. It's a shame that you can't see fit to do the same when cruising on an American owned cruise ship. Yes, AMERICAN. It is owned by an AMERICAN company, run by AMERICAN executives, and traded as an AMERICAN company on stock exchanges. As the saying goes: If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it must be a duck. It is an AMERICAN cruise ship. Period. No matter where it happens to be at the moment.

 

 

All of Celebrity ships are , in law, Maltese.

 

 

 

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Edited December 4, 2016 by Ladesign

[GUT2407]

All of Celebrity ships are , in law, Maltese.

 

 

 

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A fact that seems to elude many here on CC.

[mrs and mrs]

And this posted by loop on oct 8th

 

If you insist on doing things like they do it in Australia, then stay in Australia. If you want to travel, you need to accept the customs of the places you visit, including on American run cruise ships. The phrase "When in Rome, do as the Romans do" applies everywhere one travels. It is arrogant to insist that the way things are done in your own country is the only way it should be done world wide.

 

So when your American ship sails in Australia and theres no grats, you will of course be doing what the romans do.

Or is it a case of when in America do as the americans do(fair enough), but when in rome also do what the americans do.( how odd)

 

Any ways thanks for your input Loop, sorry sloop. Damn dyslexia

[sloopsailor]

All of Celebrity ships are , in law, Maltese.

 

 

 

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Flag of convenience (FOC) is a business practice whereby a merchant ship is registered in a country other than that of the ship's owners, and the ship flies that country's civil ensign. Owners of a ship may register the ship under a flag of convenience to reduce operating costs or avoid the regulations of the owner's country. The closely related term open registry, which describes a ship register that will register foreign-owned ships, also exists.

 

The term "flag of convenience" has been in use since the 1950s, and it refers to the civil ensign a ship flies in order to indicate its country of registration or flag state. A ship operates under the laws of its flag state, and these laws are used if the ship is involved in a case under admiralty law.

 

The key words are "operates under the laws of its flag state". That has nothing to do with ownership, only legal matters under maritime law. They are still American owned ships, with American cultural practices if the owners decide. Their ships = they get to choose.

Edited December 4, 2016 by sloopsailor

[DYKWIA]

The fact it's an American ship is irrelevant. Doesn't the fact all the cruise lines are applying this initiative in Australia tell you something?

 

If you are worried about American crew not getting their tips that they would get elsewhere....well how many crew are American? Next to none.

 

I never said it's an Australian ship. However it's sailing out of Australia and will be filled with mostly Australians. So the cruise line does the smart thing and adopt the preferences of the market it's operating in.

 

It's not rocket science. Relax, nobody is robbing you of your right to tip for services rendered if you wish.

 

This whole thing about it being an "American" ship is all a bit of a nonsense. Celebrity is a global company operating in the global market place. It operates its ships worldwide and the balance of nationalities on board changes to reflect those changes. Any company operating globally would do this. Its culturally insensitive and commercially naive not to. The Ford motor company doesn't tell people in the UK, Australia (to name 2 of many) that its an American company so get used to left hand driving.

 

It has a head office in Florida but is a publically owned company so presumably its big shareholders could be foreign investors. Its founders were a Greek family, and traditionally many of its senior crew are Greek In addition it has a number of overseas based subsidiary companies. The location of its head office could move, many companies do move their offices either for financial reasons or because they're brought by another company.

 

One of the most iconic companies with a US history is Holiday Inn, now part of Intercontinental Hotels. Most people would probably think of this as a US company but Holiday inn and Intercontinental are in fact now part of A British company whose headquarters are in a small village in Buckinghamshire. It is part of a larger company whose origins are brewing beer in and around Birmingham. Yet the fact that it is a "British" company has nothing to do with it. You still pay in the local currency, you are still encouraged to tip in the countries where tipping is the norm and you don't get Roast Beef dinners, Spotted Dick Deserts and M&B mild on all menus worldwide because its a British company.

Edited December 4, 2016 by DYKWIA

[mrs and mrs]

delete/double post

Edited December 4, 2016 by mrs and mrs
deleted double post

[villauk]

This whole thing about it being an "American" ship is all a bit of a nonsense. Celebrity is a global company operating in the global market place. It operates its ships worldwide and the balance of nationalities on board changes to reflect those changes. Any company operating globally would do this. Its culturally insensitive and commercially naive not to. The Ford motor company doesn't tell people in the UK, Australia (to name 2 of many) that its an American company so get used to left hand driving.

 

It has a head office in Florida but is a publically owned company so presumably its big shareholders could be foreign investors. Its founders were a Greek family, and traditionally many of its senior crew are Greek In addition it has a number of overseas based subsidiary companies. The location of its head office could move, many companies do move their offices either for financial reasons or because they're brought by another company.

 

One of the most iconic companies with a US history is Holiday Inn, now part of Intercontinental Hotels. Most people would probably think of this as a US company but Holiday inn and Intercontinental are in fact now part of A British company whose headquarters are in a small village in Buckinghamshire. It is part of a larger company whose origins are brewing beer in and around Birmingham. Yet the fact that it is a "British" company has nothing to do with it. You still pay in the local currency, you are still encouraged to tip in the countries where tipping is the norm and you don't get Roast Beef dinners, Spotted Dick Deserts and M&B mild on all menus worldwide because its a British company.

 

Now you're talking my kind of language: Brummies, M&B mild and spotted dick - match made in heaven :D.

[DYKWIA]

Now you're talking my kind of language: Brummies, M&B mild and spotted dick - match made in heaven :D.

 

Intercontinental Hotels Guest Services headquarters are at Brierley Hill, Dudley - I was in Hong Kong and I recall the scandal when they rolled out Brew XI & ******s with Grey "peys" as a menu staple at the Intercontinental Hong Kong, it was about the same time Celebrity put Meatloaf on the UK menus :D

 

Note:- it appears that the correct, completely acceptable and non offensive UK name for a Black Country spiced meatball is blocked - somewhat culturally insensitive, I will complain to my MP..freedom of speech, world gone crazy, not like it used to be etc etc etc :D

http://www.bromford.co.uk/news-hub/your-news/2014/july/bostin-recipes-for-black-country-day/

Edited December 4, 2016 by DYKWIA

[Presto2]

Good news. We are from the UK but have always paid the gratuities on Celebrity and often given some extra for excellent service. I find it annoying that people can remove them and pay nothing extra to anyone either. To me it makes more sense for them to be included and we can pay some extra if we like. I can't see the service going down.

Having said that it is a cultural difference and can see why anyone fron the USA wouldn't be happy.

 

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[Miaminice]

It has a head office in Florida but is a publically owned company so presumably its big shareholders could be foreign investors. Its founders were a Greek family, and traditionally many of its senior crew are Greek In addition it has a number of overseas based subsidiary companies.

 

Pleeeaaaase get you facts straight when throwing them about... Celebrity itself IS and always was a subsidiary. It does not have nor ever had subsidiaries itself. It was founded as a subsidiary of the Greek Chandris group and than sold to Royal Caribbean Cruise Line (Norwegian background) in 1997. Both, Celebrity and Royal Caribbean, are now subsidiaries of the afterwards founded Royal Caribbean Cruises Ltd. who also holds other subsidieries like Azamara etc.

 

The senior crew of Celebrity had to be Greek indeed. Less because of tradition but because it was part of the sales agreement. However, the time agreed on is now over - hence Captain Kate (American) was able to become Celebritiy´s first American Captain.

 

And btw: Yes Royal Caribbean (and some subsidiaries such as Celebrity) has its head office in Miami, however, the company is incorporated in Monrovia, Liberia. So some of you might argue it is not American but Liberian.

 

Personally I am pretty sure tips are also appreciated in Liberia, though.

Just as they are on Malta...

Edited December 4, 2016 by Miaminice

[dkjretired]

Well why don't they carry the Stars and Stripes if they're so true blue.

 

Very simple and just answering this question, none of the other comments.

 

The reason they are not flagged in the US is because of some archaic laws in the US which were passed in the late 1800s and early 1900s. They were done at the time to protect US interests in shipping and commerce however now they are having the opposite effect. This is the same reason why ships are not built in the US and you also don't see a lot of staff being from the US. Part of the law states that in order for a cruise ship to fly a US Flag, it must be built in the US.

Edited December 4, 2016 by dkjretired

[PostcardJar]

Here is the bottom line:

 

Staff are paid in large part through gratuities--a method of paying that happens in the US (whether right or wrong). In this model, the gratuities are not "extra for good service" but are part of the basic remuneration schedule for the staff. Extra tips are possible and appreciated-but not expected.

 

Thus, X is now simply charging more for the cruise...they need to make sure the staff are adequately paid and in some markets can't trust that people will pay the gratuity. This makes absolute sense in markets like the UK and Australia. Staff will know they are receiving a fair wage and that a few will tip extra.

 

I'm glad that X is making this change to protect its staff.

[Oz_Steve]

You keep overlooking a key consideration. Celebrity is an American based company. Not Australian. In fact, I couldn't find any Australian based cruise lines. So, given that the majority of passengers are also American,and are subject to the new booking policy for affected cruises, I would think that you should think twice (or three times, if you need to) about your statements. Celebrity merely sells booking in Australia (as it does worldwide), and has port stops there. Hardly enough to support your statements that no one but Australians should have an opinion.

 

If you are referencing tipping in general in Australia, you said yourself it is not expected but it is accepted. Height of greediness.

 

When in Rome...

That is the cost for the Australian Government allowing you to do business there.

Look at you, making America grate again.

[El Crucero]

Let me say that as a born and reared American, I have had a lot of interaction with Australians on both a business and social level. I find them "fair dinkum" folks. We have more in common than most other cultures. I find some of their customs baffling as they do mine, for example tipping. Service staff in Australia tend to be paid a living wage by the employer so tipping is not an expected part of their income. In the US, service staff tend to be paid at or near minimum wage by the employer and the public is expected to supplement their income through tipping to support a living wage. Different countries, different cultures. It is all good and I like Aussies.

 

I support Celebrity's new policy to include "gratuities" in the cruise fare in Australia. I hope that Celebrity will expand this policy to include all countries throughout their fleet of ships. I understand that fares will increase to cover this included perk, but it will just simplify the protocol for everyone in all countries. In addition, I will continue to give cash tips to staff for service above and beyond the norm, but that is just me.

[Oz_Steve]

Let me say that as a born and reared American, I have had a lot of interaction with Australians on both a business and social level. I find them "fair dinkum" folks. We have more in common than most other cultures. I find some of their customs baffling as they do mine, for example tipping. Service staff in Australia tend to be paid a living wage by the employer so tipping is not an expected part of their income. In the US, service staff tend to be paid at or near minimum wage by the employer and the public is expected to supplement their income through tipping to support a living wage. Different countries, different cultures. It is all good and I like Aussies.

 

I support Celebrity's new policy to include "gratuities" in the cruise fare in Australia. I hope that Celebrity will expand this policy to include all countries throughout their fleet of ships. I understand that fares will increase to cover this included perk, but it will just simplify the protocol for everyone in all countries. In addition, I will continue to give cash tips to staff for service above and beyond the norm, but that is just me.

 

Excellent post. I have travelled, lived in the US and worked with Americans a great deal and as you say there is more the same than dissimilar.

Better to be a traveller than a tourist.

[shipfriend_max]

So why don't you live and let live

 

 

Thanks, thanks and thanks!!!! :D you're so right.

 

Judging people by the "fighting against the system" story as he was mentioning is thought very simply and naive as well.

If every passenger puts up with everything then the cruise lines will go on and on raising costs and cut services...

 

Especially the gratuities are one of the main problems discussed, and I really like the fact X is going to include them at least on Australian sailings, let's hope it will follow for the rest of the world soon, and other lines will do as well. [emoji5]

 

 

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Edited December 5, 2016 by shipfriend_max