HAL's New Unwelcome Changes on the Oosterdam

[St Pete Cruiser]

The Explorers Lounge classical music was down to just a pianist and violinist last year. Now with the Lincoln Center, there are 5 musicians : pianist, two violinists, viola, and cello. Very nice! The Ocean Bar has just a pianist. We enjoyed both.

[boards]

Thank you for the correction. I thought there was 5 rather than the 4 I had mentioned earlier. We sat on the outside of the room they were playing in and really enjoyed them.

They also played on stage in the Mainstage Lounge.

Edited December 12, 2016 by boards

[Roktory]

Does anyone have the Main Dinning Room menu they can post?

[InTheWASide]

We just returned from a 14 day Caribbean Cruise from Tampa. The Oosterdam looked fine after its recent (Spring, 2016) dry-dock. Our SS cabin was very nice. All changes were for the better.

 

However HAL has made three changes to this ship and its operation which disturbed me enough to book my next cruise with Princess. Here goes in order of the least bad to the most bad (for my cruise experience).

 

The library has been reduced to about 10 feet of books, fiction, non-fiction and non-English titles combined. There is a separate reference section with travel guides etc. No more librarian. I enjoyed the former set-up on the Nieuw Amsterdam in May. HAL is giving up some of its uniqueness with the demise of its former good library. I did find one book, but I seemed to be in the minority

I was aware of some changes that were going to happen with this dry dock. As HAL is putting a larger focus on destination immersion it makes sense that the focus of the Explorations Cafe is to be a destination reference library with atlases, map books, info about the region and so forth. I think it's a good move, personally.

 

Remember the Explorers Lounge. On the Oosterdam it has been brutally divided in half. One part remains the gracious lounge, largely unused in the evening. No more after dinner drinks or chocolates. The other half has become a small theater where one sits in rows to here the musicians (still excellent which cannot be said of this set-up. It looks weird

I agree with others. It's a win-win as you have the area that is a lounge for those looking for that, and it's also a performance venue having been transformed into Lincoln Center Stage

 

Now for the worst. The poor Ocean Bar - HAL has taken out the dance floor (dancing is now in the Queens Lounge if BB King is not playing. This has allowed the line to dispense with the combo. There is a piano player for short intervals at five, six, and eight. AT seven the lovely Ocean Bar is given over to Trivia players! Yes I did say Trivia! Alas the fate of a great HAL tradition which was developed over decades. UGH.

The music performers around the ship are now Lincoln Center Stage, Billboard Onboard, BB Kings Blues Club, etc. As they all have their own dedicated spaces it makes no sense to leave the Ocean Bar set for music when those performances are happening elsewhere.

 

The Crows Nest is also devoid of a dance floor so no more live or disco music.

Crow's Nest hasn't been a live music venue (outside of an occasional guitar or piano soloist depending on ship) in quite a long time. And on the Vista class ships this has never been a "disco" area. That WAS Northern Lights, which was very underutilized and was transformed into the Gallery Bar (by the way... another beautiful relaxing venue if you indeed have concerns about the Explorers Lounge)

 

Finally a seasonal beef. We heard Christmas music all over the ship for 24 hours per day. The Cruise Director said this is company policy not to be changed once it was implemented on December 1st.

Most anywhere you go in December you're likely to here Xmas music more often than not. Grocery stores, restaurants, malls, department stores... I don't understand the concern here

 

I am looking forward to my next cruise of the Star Princess, and will be very careful to check if these changes have gone fleet-wide.

Perhaps I misunderstand... it sounds like you're saying that on Princess you'll be seeing if these Oosterdam changes have gone fleetwide :confused:

 

 

My thoughts above in red

[Carnevale]

We are so disappointed in the changes to the OB and appreciate that the OP shared their observations.

 

We love to dance and on our Westerdam cruise this fall the OB floor was typically packed when the band played - so busy that sometimes we sat out to give others more floor space. Our disappointment was that the band often played a single 1-hour set per evening (with thankfully a few fuller evenings).

 

For us, the BB Kings is not a dance band. They don't have the range of styles and tempi needed for good dancing, individual songs are often too long (needed for jazz riffs), and they are far too loud for us to enjoy a dance.

 

We won't sail on K'dam again for several reasons with the lack of OB dancing among them. We have a Noordam sailing booked for the fall of 2017 but will cancel before final payment if Noordam follows suit and takes the band out of the OB altogether.

 

We have really enjoyed the Vista class ships but the way things are going we may need to go back to Cunard where dancing is given more attention. We don't understand why the BB Kings need so many musicians. If HAL reduced them by three they could create a trio dedicated to the OB with the side advantage of slightly reducing the vol of the BB Kings. Seems this could make more people happy and generate more revenue in the OB.

[dag144]

My thoughts above in red

 

To respond to your points:

 

The HAL libraries have had a fine reference for some time. The Oosterdam's reference section is unchanged. It is the fiction and non-fiction sections which have been seriously depleted, and there is no more librarian to help with the reference section or anything else.

 

Your claim that HAL is emphasizing destination cruising doesn't appear to jive with the itineraries offered HAL's website. The ships are getting larger which makes them more self contained akin to a resort at sea rather than explorers of exotic places.

 

Many people go to the Ocean Bar to have a drink and enjoy the ambiance of conservation, dancing (music aids those who dance, otherwise they would have to sing themselves). Music can enhance and complete a cocktail experience. This offers another choice to cruisers which is different than music for music's sake.

 

Carols are fine. Do you play them 24/7 in your home during the holidays, or do you, like I, appreciate some break time?

 

Finally I am cruising on Princess which is (I hope) sticking to the old formula, and I shall be very careful before I take my next (33rd cruise) that the offerings that I have come to enjoy are in place.

[knittinggirl]

We just returned from a 14 day Caribbean Cruise from Tampa. The Oosterdam looked fine after its recent (Spring, 2016) dry-dock. Our SS cabin was very nice. All changes were for the better.

 

However HAL has made three changes to this ship and its operation which disturbed me enough to book my next cruise with Princess. Here goes in order of the least bad to the most bad (for my cruise experience).

 

The library has been reduced to about 10 feet of books, fiction, non-fiction and non-English titles combined. There is a separate reference section with travel guides etc. No more librarian. I enjoyed the former set-up on the Nieuw Amsterdam in May. HAL is giving up some of its uniqueness with the demise of its former good library. I did find one book, but I seemed to be in the minority

 

Remember the Explorers Lounge. On the Oosterdam it has been brutally divided in half. One part remains the gracious lounge, largely unused in the evening. No more after dinner drinks or chocolates. The other half has become a small theater where one sits in rows to here the musicians (still excellent which cannot be said of this set-up. It looks weird

 

Now for the worst. The poor Ocean Bar - HAL has taken out the dance floor (dancing is now in the Queens Lounge if BB King is not playing. This has allowed the line to dispense with the combo. There is a piano player for short intervals at five, six, and eight. AT seven the lovely Ocean Bar is given over to Trivia players! Yes I did say Trivia! Alas the fate of a great HAL tradition which was developed over decades. UGH.

 

The Crows Nest is also devoid of a dance floor so no more live or disco music.

 

Finally a seasonal beef. We heard Christmas music all over the ship for 24 hours per day. The Cruise Director said this is company policy not to be changed once it was implemented on December 1st.

 

I am looking forward to my next cruise of the Star Princess, and will be very careful to check if these changes have gone fleet-wide.

We cruised about 4 years apart on Sapphire Princess and Star Princess. Basically, the Sapphire Princess had a library taking up a room, but a few years later, the Star Princess had a couple of book cases.

 

I wish instead of getting rid of the books, they'd create an electronic library that would let people download books to their Kindles.

[SilvertoGold]

The cruise ships are missing the point of the library if they are closing them down because of e-books.

 

A library area is an area with very comfy chairs with a view of the ocean, a sanctuary for people to go to relax & do relaxing, peaceful, on-the-quiet side things such as reading (hardcovers, softcovers, paperbooks, kindles, nooks, e-readers, or 'whatever'), knitting, jigsaw puzzles, journal writing, research reference books for up coming ports, etc.

It's area where the people in the inside cabins (and anyone else too of course) can go and quietly read and watch the ocean go by. We always get a balcony for pretty well just that purpose, but not every one wants to spend the money on that.

 

It's not just to borrow books. It also LOOKS and feels like days gone by just having a quiet secluded area with lots of books on display. They can still do all of this by having the reference books open under 'somewhat' supervision at certain times of the day in order to check out reference books combined with 'Take a Book, Leave a Book' shelves for the other times.

 

I take my kindle due to luggage restrictions, but I love to flip through the reference books on the ports, or any other interesting subjects. And I love to just browse the titles of the fiction/non fiction just to see what is there. Books do not have to be continually bought on a ship, they do not have to have the latest bestsellers as we can get those on the kindle, etc. I have always believed that most books are timeless with the exception of the port-related reference books.

 

Many estates would probably just give the cruise lines the books, I know I have it in my will for the kids to do that when we are gone.

 

When we went on the Vanc-Hawaii-Vanc cruise in Oct on the Westerdam I was surprised to see that the library was part of the Crow's Nest area now - it was on the other side, but it is still very noisy and not well placed at all. It was not conducive to quiet at all. I didn't mind the Explorations Cafe, that could go hand in hand in hand with it, and I didn't mind the computers being there either as again, that fits too, it's just 'where' it was located. It would have been much better to switch the location with one of the quiet secluded bars down on the main floors.

 

YES! Looks count and that is part of what a "premium" cruise line should consider.

 

We were on that Westerdam cruise and I agree with your assessment of the CN and the Library there.

[Sea Belle]

We just booked a March 2017 cruise on the Oosterdam and were looking forward to the "old style" Ocean Bar. One of the main complaints we had during our Sept/Oct Koningsdam trip was the lack of entertainment for the cocktail hour prior to 8:00 seating. There is no place to sit and enjoy a drink with good music. The piano player in the OB was a disappointment and there was just no room to be close enough to him to appreciate his efforts. The chamber music was available and lovely, but most of the people "listening" were asleep. I suspect they were from early dining! ;)

 

Does anyone have suggestions for the 7 - 8 hour on the Oosterdam? We have always found the OB to be popular during that time slot and again after dinner. :D

[Wonderingabout]

Not being a full time cruiser I still find I agree with the OP. I compare my trip on the Statendam 4 years ago to the recent Tampa trip on the Oosterdam.

 

The Library issue is not related to the number of books or whether the reader is into EBooks or hardcovers or Travel books or even reading rather it is that the library is a different venue with a different ambiance from the other public areas on the ship. Most of the other non-restaurant areas are devoted to having a drink with some kind of music. None are set up for the person to just chill out. The library brought just that kind of chill out space. It is or was the only space where the traveler could relax without the ship having to do the entertaining. It no doubt has revenue limitations that probably were not fully compensated by the coffee bar.

 

The Crows Nest on the Statendam usually had a DJ spinning records often requests in the evening with a dance floor. This provided a space where the entertainer (DJ) and the passengers could interact. This interaction was missing in the various entertainment venues on the Oosterdam. On the Oosterdam the entertainers entertained and the passengers were there to politely applaud. While this worked well with the classical ensemble at the Lincoln center it left much to be desired at the other venues. It would seem that with the Crows Nest being so underutilized in the evening and that the cost of having a DJ must be fairly small that giving the Crows Nest back to records and dancing would not be an expensive proposition and might generate additional revenue to the cruise line.

 

The Blues band is probably too loud for its venue. It is not that the music is bad, I love Soul, Rhythm & Blues and Jazz. The problem I have is it dominates its venue to the extent that everything else becomes miniscule including conversation between passengers. Intermingling with the other passengers of a cruise ship is one of the selling points of a cruise or just being able to talk to the person you came with could be sometimes satisfying. Perhaps if I had hearing difficulties I could just turn down the volume of my hearing aid to compensate but it would not make communication any better.

 

So much for my complaints.:)

[boards]

We just booked a March 2017 cruise on the Oosterdam and were looking forward to the "old style" Ocean Bar. One of the main complaints we had during our Sept/Oct Koningsdam trip was the lack of entertainment for the cocktail hour prior to 8:00 seating. There is no place to sit and enjoy a drink with good music. The piano player in the OB was a disappointment and there was just no room to be close enough to him to appreciate his efforts. The chamber music was available and lovely, but most of the people "listening" were asleep. I suspect they were from early dining! ;)

 

Does anyone have suggestions for the 7 - 8 hour on the Oosterdam? We have always found the OB to be popular during that time slot and again after dinner. :D

 

at 7 Pm is was Pub Triva, we did not go it, so do not know how long it went, also in the Billboard lounge (beside the casino) it a couple playing and singing at 7 PM and it was Happy Hour.

[Sea Belle]

at 7 Pm is was Pub Triva, we did not go it, so do not know how long it went, also in the Billboard lounge (beside the casino) it a couple playing and singing at 7 PM and it was Happy Hour.

 

What type of music did the lounge singers perform? We are not much for trivia over cocktails. ;)

[dag144]

at 7 Pm is was Pub Triva, we did not go it, so do not know how long it went, also in the Billboard lounge (beside the casino) it a couple playing and singing at 7 PM and it was Happy Hour.

 

Unfortunately there was no 7PM happy hour on the 11/25-12/9 Oosterdam cruise, otherwise I would have gone.

[Donny-Joe]

With the rise of travelers bringing their own Kindles or other e-readers, or using iPads for reading, library usage is clearly sharply lower, and I share your pain. I love the look and feel of a library full of books and there's something really wonderful about browsing the shelves and finding something new. My wife is a librarian and we have a house full of books.

 

My advice, though, is to try to accept the trend and join the ranks of ebook users. if you were unhappy with the e-readers of a few years ago you might be surprised at how nice the newer models are. I got a Kindle Voyage recently that I think really reproduces the experience of reading text from a page very well, and is lighter than a paperback. There's very little downside (other than the cost of getting the reader in the first place).

 

And if you don't mind a very slightly heavier and more expensive device, the newest iPad mini is very light, has a lovely screen, and can be used for a variety of entertainment in addition to reading.

 

One caveat with any of the e-reading solutions is that I find that books with large numbers of diagrams or charts still tend to be inferior in electronic form (with some exceptions). So I tend to read popular science books and technical books on paper. But novels work great on e-readers, and Amazon has constant sales on older backlist titles they've acquired over the years. It's very easy to build up a substantial library of good stuff with just a few weeks of checking the regular Amazon Kindle deals pages.

[taxmantoo]

Does anyone have suggestions for the 7 - 8 hour on the Oosterdam? We have always found the OB to be popular during that time slot and again after dinner. :D

 

You may want to give the "Gallery Bar" a try. It's a wonderful and very classy venue.

[lazey1]

My advice, though, is to try to accept the trend and join the ranks of ebook users. if you were unhappy with the e-readers of a few years ago you might be surprised at how nice the newer models are. I got a Kindle Voyage recently that I think really reproduces the experience of reading text from a page very well, and is lighter than a paperback. There's very little downside (other than the cost of getting the reader in the first place).

 

But novels work great on e-readers, and Amazon has constant sales on older backlist titles they've acquired over the years. It's very easy to build up a substantial library of good stuff with just a few weeks of checking the regular Amazon Kindle deals pages.

 

I got a Kindle Paperwhite a couple of months ago and I am in serious need of help using Amazon to build a Kindle library. If you don't mind helping a computer illiterate senior please e-mail me at themanginosatcoxdotnet. Put cruise critic-Kindle in the title

 

Thank you, if you don't have the time I understand.

[Donny-Joe]

I got a Kindle Paperwhite a couple of months ago and I am in serious need of help using Amazon to build a Kindle library. If you don't mind helping a computer illiterate senior please e-mail me at themanginosatcoxdotnet. Put cruise critic-Kindle in the title

 

Thank you, if you don't have the time I understand.

 

I emailed you, but in case anyone wants the short version, the basic advice is to check the Kindle deals pages regularly. Daily if you like, but really whenever you have a moment. I find that they regularly have big sales on authors that they've signed for their backlist program, and they'll put that author's entire backlist on sale for a few days every once in a while and you can get, say, the entire James Bond series for $0.99 per book, or all of Ed McBain's 87th precinct series or things like that.

 

Here's the front page of the Kindle ebooks page, and from there, it's easy to get to the various deals pages; look at the menu on the left side of the page. Signing up for the daily kindle deals email is also worth it, though you do get an email every day.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Kindle-eBooks

[TampaMike]

I was aboard this cruise and I am still aboard for the next 3 weeks. There will always be pros and cons to changes made. Concerning the library reduction, the primary reason was to reduce staff members by dropping the librarian as the cabin space was needed to accommodate the additional musicians with billboard and BB King. There were sections of shelving removed from the library with additional seating added especially the row of windows opposite of the coffee bar. Where the Crow's Nest falls down is it no longer is an evening venue as there is no piano player or movement of other musicians to the Crow's Nest to draw people up there in the evening. After Sundown, it is cold dark and silent.

 

Concerning the Lincoln Center arrangement, yes they have chopped the Explorer's Lounge in half. The pro is you still have opportunity for both an intimate musical presentation and a adjacent lounge environment. The lounge portion actually became the better quiet reading place during the daytime as The Crows Nest / Library was used for two or three trivias a day along with the chatter of the coffee bar. And the Lincoln Center theater although not as comfortable allows more intimate focus on the musicians. In the past the strings or chamber music was often interrupted by the noise of people passing from the dining room past the open air Explorers Lounge with no regard for the live musicians or the passengers enjoying the intimacy of the venue.

 

Shockingly the Dueling Pianos for billboard actually caused the removal of some casino games. But it does blend nicely between the casino and the new Gallery bar. I like the Gallery Bar but I just find the lighting too bright inside.

 

I think the Ocean Bar changes are a mistake. I miss having the Neptunes in the Ocean Bar. There was always music spilling throughout the atrium area on various decks, all the way down to the atrium bar and even the front office before dinner. Now you have trivia babble filling the atrium. It was also very difficult to get bar service anywhere unless you sit right at the bar itself.

 

Last, the change in musicians and venues has removed having poolside music outside of steel drummer. This is the case either under the Lido pool or the Sea View pool during sail away. I always enjoyed the Halcats playing poolside during the lunch time it seemed a bit lively especially when the weather was poor.

 

This attempt to add more music venues seems to also truncate some traditional aspects of the product. Trivia is so popular because they simply do not have the staff to handle more activities. And they no longer utilize a cruise staff with focus on socialization and activities. If you were to ask for a hostess onboard a Holland America ship you would be likely to be handed a Twinkie.

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Forums mobile app

[Tinknock50]

What exactly does the BB Kings consist of? What instruments do they use?

[dag144]

With the rise of travelers bringing their own Kindles or other e-readers, or using iPads for reading, library usage is clearly sharply lower, and I share your pain. I love the look and feel of a library full of books and there's something really wonderful about browsing the shelves and finding something new. My wife is a librarian and we have a house full of books.

 

My advice, though, is to try to accept the trend and join the ranks of ebook users. if you were unhappy with the e-readers of a few years ago you might be surprised at how nice the newer models are. I got a Kindle Voyage recently that I think really reproduces the experience of reading text from a page very well, and is lighter than a paperback. There's very little downside (other than the cost of getting the reader in the first place).

 

And if you don't mind a very slightly heavier and more expensive device, the newest iPad mini is very light, has a lovely screen, and can be used for a variety of entertainment in addition to reading.

 

One caveat with any of the e-reading solutions is that I find that books with large numbers of diagrams or charts still tend to be inferior in electronic form (with some exceptions). So I tend to read popular science books and technical books on paper. But novels work great on e-readers, and Amazon has constant sales on older backlist titles they've acquired over the years. It's very easy to build up a substantial library of good stuff with just a few weeks of checking the regular Amazon Kindle deals pages.

 

You hit it on the head! I primarily read non fiction and go to reference points such as maps and tables which requires much flipping back and forth. Using an e-book app for this just doesn't give me the same level of enjoyment. Do you work for an e-book manufacturer or sell the software?

[taxmantoo]

What exactly does the BB Kings consist of? What instruments do they use?

 

Just go to YouTube and search for "Holland America BB KIng". You will get a few hundred videos. They are the same on all the ships.

Edited December 12, 2016 by taxmantoo

[igraf]

From the HAL web site:

 

(BB King) Clubs are now open in the Queen's Lounge on:

 

• ms Eurodam
  
• ms Koningsdam
  
• ms Nieuw Amsterdam
  
• ms Noordam
  
• ms Oosterdam
  
• ms Rotterdam
  
• ms Westerdam
  
• ms Zuiderdam
  

 

No Queen's Lounge on the Rotterdam, so it is elsewhere.

 

igraf

 

 

 

 

Just go to YouTube and search for "Holland America BB KIng". You will get a few hundred videos. They are the same on all the ships.

[SilvertoGold]

What exactly does the BB Kings consist of? What instruments do they use?

 

Drums, keyboard, sax, trumpet, guitars.

 

Each group is different, of course, and play blues, motown, pop, soul with one or two vocalists.

 

Best thing HAL has in entertainment!

Edited December 12, 2016 by SilvertoGold

[Donny-Joe]

You hit it on the head! I primarily read non fiction and go to reference points such as maps and tables which requires much flipping back and forth. Using an e-book app for this just doesn't give me the same level of enjoyment.

 

Yeah, that's a problem. I've seen a few books where I thought the charts and diagrams were OK on an ebook, but it requires putting in very high-resolution images, and it seems like most publishers either don't want to do that or don't know how. And even then, you have to spend a lot of time zooming and scrolling to see everything.

 

I do think there's potential for ebooks to be better overall than paper books, even for graphic-heavy books like art books, because you can zoom into images and really examine the details. The problem is that the ebooks need to have images with enough detail to be worth zooming into. And right now that's just not the case.

 

Do you work for an e-book manufacturer or sell the software?

 

No, though at one point I worked for Microsoft, which had one of the earliest and worst ebook readers ever. :-)

 

I'm just a paper book lover who railed against ebooks for years, then finally stopped fighting and embraced the ebook world, at least for fiction.

[Karennella]

Are ebooks a lot cheaper than paper for Americans? One reason I do not buy them is that often they are almost the same price as paper books. I think they are only about 15% of the market here.