NCL new builds. Oceania also???

[StanandJim]

Isn't it odd that many of the same Posters who want the new ships most, are also active on current threads regarding the stingy size of the cocktails or the high cost of Shore Excursions?

Point A) Lines which have chosen not to invest in new equipment, may presumably amend their revenue streams with an eye to closing up shop when their existing ships are exhausted. If loyalists demand that Oceania match them in every particular, we will never see a new ship.

Point B) It is magical thinking to believe that Cruise Fares alone will support the financing of a new build.

[Classiccruiser777]

Those of us loyal to Oceania love the O and R ships. Make us want to fill them!

We're there. Having cruised many times on Cunard and Holland (I readily admit they are both in different leagues) I really don't see much, if anything, that Oceania can do differently to improve the product.

 

The last thing I want management to do is over extend the brand then go down the path of cut backs in order to satisfy shareholders. That strategy diminishes the brand and loses loyal customers. No thanks.

[PaulMCO]

I really think NCL is investing in new ships to be competitive in their market. They only have a few recent new build Beakaway class that can compete with RCCL Oasis and Quantum classes. The older ships have less dining venue -- limited or no Haven area.

 

Does O need to this -- quite possibly but it depends on whether you consider their market so niche (mid priced luxury) that they have no competition. Certainly Regent is doing so to compete with new builds from Seabourn and Silversea.

[RJB]

I really think NCL is investing in new ships to be competitive in their market. They only have a few recent new build Beakaway class that can compete with RCCL Oasis and Quantum classes. The older ships have less dining venue -- limited or no Haven area.

 

Does O need to this -- quite possibly but it depends on whether you consider their market so niche (mid priced luxury) that they have no competition. Certainly Regent is doing so to compete with new builds from Seabourn and Silversea.

 

 

When they decide that they are in a class of their own and have no competition than that is the day they are on they way to their end. Companies, no matter what kind have to continue to invest in their product or they will loose ground in their market. They seem to see if for NCL but fail to see it for Oceania. Viking is building or has built 4 new ships in the last few years and could one day eat Oceania,s lunch. Ships get old, other lines build new ships, customers start to drift away and they wake up one day and wonder where it all went. Hope not.

[LHT28]

Or they may wake up one day & find the market is over saturated with ships & the economy tanked

Be careful what you wish for ;)

[robbie21]

When they decide that they are in a class of their own and have no competition than that is the day they are on they way to their end. Companies, no matter what kind have to continue to invest in their product or they will loose ground in their market. They seem to see if for NCL but fail to see it for Oceania. Viking is building or has built 4 new ships in the last few years and could one day eat Oceania,s lunch. Ships get old, other lines build new ships, customers start to drift away and they wake up one day and wonder where it all went. Hope not.

 

 

You make a good point. Viking ships are roughly equivalent to the "O" class ships and that category is shaping up to become very competitive in reaction to the monster ships some are operating.

 

I personally think there is a lucrative niche market for the smaller R ships. Azamara is basically the only competition in that market - interestingly using the same ship design. The luxury lines are similar sizes or smaller but way pricier.

 

Perhaps someday Oceania will consider building new R size ship. I am not sure how this would pencil out economically. A good part of the growth in the size of cruise ships is the economy of scale problem. Larger ships are inherently cheaper to operate on a per passenger basis. As long as they keep maintaining the current R ships I will keep buying.

 

Robbie

[Travelcat2]

In terms of building, Oceania built the Marina followed by the Riviera and then the purchase and remodel of Sirena. Regent just completed one new ship with another one due for completion in 2020. It seems that it is now NCL's turn. Personally, I'm glad to see the parent company taking things slowly.

 

In terms of which type of ship I'd like to see Oceania build - definitely the O-class!

[RJB]

In terms of building, Oceania built the Marina followed by the Riviera and then the purchase and remodel of Sirena. Regent just completed one new ship with another one due for completion in 2020. It seems that it is now NCL's turn. Personally, I'm glad to see the parent company taking things slowly.

 

In terms of which type of ship I'd like to see Oceania build - definitely the O-class!

 

 

NCL 6 new ships.... that's slowly? Not in my mind. It is a good thing for them. The way to go to keep their market share or even build it. O will slowly give up their share of the up scale mid market if they do not keep up. Too bad.. I will miss them... :(:(:(

[bitob]

You make a good point. Viking ships are roughly equivalent to the "O" class ships and that category is shaping up to become very competitive in reaction to the monster ships some are operating.

 

I personally think there is a lucrative niche market for the smaller R ships. Azamara is basically the only competition in that market - interestingly using the same ship design. The luxury lines are similar sizes or smaller but way pricier.

 

Perhaps someday Oceania will consider building new R size ship. I am not sure how this would pencil out economically. A good part of the growth in the size of cruise ships is the economy of scale problem. Larger ships are inherently cheaper to operate on a per passenger basis. As long as they keep maintaining the current R ships I will keep buying.

 

Robbie

 

 

Agree

I would pay more to sail with fewer passengers

I don't care if the ship is "new"

Smaller is better imo

 

 

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[Classiccruiser777]

Agree

I would pay more to sail with fewer passengers

I don't care if the ship is "new"

Smaller is better imo

 

Ditto!

[StanandJim]

Ditto!

 

Having done this particular Big versus Small dance as a former Cunard, Sitmar, Home Lines, and HAL before Carnival Customer, I can tell you that the smaller ship cachet, although important to some of us, has less commercial appeal than you would think..

 

People simply want the bells and whistles that go along with newer and larger.....even if they don't realize it.

 

Oceania did a nice job of merging the amenities of the O ships with those of the R ships, but there is still a lot of talk of "missing" Jacques or Red Ginger on the smaller ships, and of course people universally prefer the cabins on the newer vessels.

 

The next inevitable stage, despite the immaculate maintenance which Oceania insists upon, is that older ships are less mechanically reliable. Plumbing and Air conditioning are normally the first to rear their ugly heads. As incidents are reported, the class inevitably loses luster and trade. Nothing lasts forever.

An exceptionally LONG lived ship, such as QE2 will remain economically viable for forty years, the R ships are in their early to mid twenties.

[LHT28]

Marco Po;o is 50+ years old

I do not like that they stuffed more cabins on her

The ship is too small for the amount of cabins to make it pleasant

O is working for us so far so until it stops being a good fit we will stick with them :D

[StanandJim]

Marco Po;o is 50+ years old

I do not like that they stuffed more cabins on her

The ship is too small for the amount of cabins to make it pleasant

O is working for us so far so until it stops being a good fit we will stick with them :D

 

Yes, and there is one which recently made 100 years, but they are the exceptions which prove the rule.

Marco Polo is no longer attracting, or even being advertised to, the high end North American cruisers which she once was.

In Oceania's end of the marketplace, I would say that 40 years is a very solid, even generous prediction.

[robbie21]

Having done this particular Big versus Small dance as a former Cunard, Sitmar, Home Lines, and HAL before Carnival Customer, I can tell you that the smaller ship cachet, although important to some of us, has less commercial appeal than you would think..

 

People simply want the bells and whistles that go along with newer and larger.....even if they don't realize it.

 

Oceania did a nice job of merging the amenities of the O ships with those of the R ships, but there is still a lot of talk of "missing" Jacques or Red Ginger on the smaller ships, and of course people universally prefer the cabins on the newer vessels.

 

 

Well I said the R ship size was a niche market :D. As you say, Oceania did a pretty nice job of merging or adapting their original concept but I think the O ships are operating in a somewhat different market niche than the R ships, along with Viking, et. al.

 

I believe there is a pretty clear market for the R size among experienced cruisers. Evidence of this preference for the R size is in frequent statements on this board and, of course, sales :)Niche marketing works very well in many industries. If you keep the product well defined and don't try to overbuild they can endure a long time. The last couple of times on the R ships I met a fair number of 1st timers so I think new business is still being attracted. As you say, though, eventually the ships will age out and decisions will have to be made.

 

I will grant your point on the advantage in cabin (and shower) size if you will concede the superiority of the library on the R ships over the awful excuse for a library on the O's. The walking track is better, too, not so windy. I could go on but, bottom line, the intimacy of the smaller ship and the atmosphere it promotes outweighs the small improvements made in the new designs for me and many of my cruising companions.

 

Robbie

[StanandJim]

bottom line, the intimacy of the smaller ship and the atmosphere it promotes outweighs the small improvements made in the new designs for me and many of my cruising companions.

 

Robbie

 

I'll ask you what Mr. Del Rio asked me when I bemoaned the size of the Marina versus her older sisters-

 

"Who EVER goes smaller when building a new ship?"

 

I didn't want to believe that, so I did the research and while it has happened, such as when HAL built the original Prinsendam in 1973, it is also exceedingly rare.

 

The economy of scale is virtually irresistible. <|3

[bitob]

Look what is happening on seabourn. Little sisters. Then 450 passengers. Now encore with 650. Becomes less appealing

 

I'm with Robbie. I do not care for the O class ships. The specialty restaurants are unimportant to us. Too crowded. Too impersonal. The r class experience is what we crave

 

Boarding sirena for 34 nights next week

Robbie going too!!

 

 

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[RJB]

Agree

I would pay more to sail with fewer passengers

I don't care if the ship is "new"

Smaller is better imo

 

 

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You can now. It is called Silver Seas or Seabourn. Not what I want. Been there, done that and always :)come back to O. I think most of us that are posting on this thread are only looking for O to get better. Not trying to to be critical. For us the O ships vs the R ships are better but the R ships are pretty good also. Just give us a few new ships. :):):)

[bitob]

You can now. It is called Silver Seas or Seabourn. Not what I want. Been there, done that and always :)come back to O. I think most of us that are posting on this thread are only looking for O to get better. Not trying to to be critical. For us the O ships vs the R ships are better but the R ships are pretty good also. Just give us a few new ships. :):):)

 

 

You missed my point so I will clarify

If the identical itinerary were offered on marina and nautica I would pay more to sail on nautica I think it's a far better experience and worth a premium

 

I realize not everyone agrees.

 

As for seabourn, we enjoyed seabourn with 450 passengers and we have booked the quest to Antarctica

 

 

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[LHT28]

Marco Polo is no longer attracting, or even being advertised to, the high end North American cruisers which she once was.

 

 

Yes once Orient Lines went she was not a good as she used to be

 

The Brits still like her though

[marylizcat]

Yes once Orient Lines went she was not a good as she used to be

 

The Brits still like her though

 

 

We have sailed on her twice in recent years and enjoyed her traditional style. However she is only really marketed as a three star ship at prices about a third of Oceania's.

 

To return to Oceania getting a 'new' ship though. Isn't P&O's Adonia an old Renaissance ship? She was recently loaned to Fathom. Perhaps O could buy her like they did Sirena.

[Classiccruiser777]

I'll ask you what Mr. Del Rio asked me when I bemoaned the size of the Marina versus her older sisters-

 

"Who EVER goes smaller when building a new ship?"

 

I didn't want to believe that, so I did the research and while it has happened, such as when HAL built the original Prinsendam in 1973, it is also exceedingly rare.

 

The economy of scale is virtually irresistible. <|3

Cunard did when the QE2 was built, replacing the larger Queen Mary & Queen Elizabeth.

 

Also, the R ships were made by Chantiers de l'Atlantique, the same yard that made the QM2. Having talked with several senior officers of Cunard about the QM2, their opinions were uniform in that the QM2 is an extremely well made vessel unlike the ships made by Fincantieri. Given that the oldest R is just under 20 years and that O has very high maintenance standards I expect these ships to last at least another 20 years. At that time both they, and me, are due for the breakers.

 

I'd be very interested to know why the decision was made to buy Sirena and not a new build.

[RJB]

You missed my point so I will clarify

If the identical itinerary were offered on marina and nautica I would pay more to sail on nautica I think it's a far better experience and worth a premium

 

I realize not everyone agrees.

 

As for seabourn, we enjoyed seabourn with 450 passengers and we have booked the quest to Antarctica

 

 

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I guess we do not agree on this point. I would rather sail on the O class ships even thou I also love the smaller ships too. It is wonderful that we get great choices. Where they are going is most important.

[LHT28]

for me I would just like them to have faster service in the GDR & not have to sit waiting for luke warm food

More bodies to serve may help

I like O just the size they are now

[RJB]

for me I would just like them to have faster service in the GDR & not have to sit waiting for luke warm food

More bodies to serve may help

I like O just the size they are now

 

 

My problem still is the old saying "that if you are not moving forward then you are going backward." Still true.

[robbie21]

I'll ask you what Mr. Del Rio asked me when I bemoaned the size of the Marina versus her older sisters-

 

"Who EVER goes smaller when building a new ship?"

 

I didn't want to believe that, so I did the research and while it has happened, such as when HAL built the original Prinsendam in 1973, it is also exceedingly rare.

 

The economy of scale is virtually irresistible. <|3

 

 

Agree. It is rare. If you choose to build smaller the econ of scale issue forces you to charge more per passenger and that is not an appealing option in a competitive market. However, as several have commented, they would be willing to pay more for the smaller ship experience. Indeed, many do pay more for Silverseas and other luxury lines. The all inclusive pricing of the lux lines puts me off. In particular I prefer to arrange my own excursions. A great many "experienced" cruisers agree with me on that. Oceania's O'Choice options are pretty good for me (not perfect, but good).

 

The question for Oceania is, "Is there really a viable niche market for the R size ships?". Right now the answer is pretty clearly yes. If they have to replace the ships and build new - well, that's a tough question.