Tipping (sorry!)

[MarkBearSF]

And guess what the world hasn't imploded, we have one if the fastest growing cruise markets in the World, the crew seem to love being based here, and fares are pretty much the same as elsewhere (sometimes even before you add gratuities on).

 

Glad to hear it! All of it, actually. Including the growth in the Australian cruise market - which for far too long, was an afterthought and a place to send ships at the end of their service in their lines.

Edited June 4, 2017 by MarkBearSF

[GUT2407]

Glad to hear it! All of it, actually. Including the growth in the Australian cruise market - which for far too long, was an afterthought and a place to send ships at the end of their service in their lines.

We still get a lot of older ships, now and then one of the newest for a season or so. But it is a big business here.

[insanemagnet]

Sorry I was talking about cruises here in Australia, all the Carnival brand lines and now the RCI lines with ships here long term or for the season now charge a fare that includes gratuities

 

Only because the economics forced them to.

 

Australian's don't tip. So if you have a voluntary surcharge you are relying on to pay wages, you have a problem if the majority of people don't pay. If you don't increase the base price to include wage costs you either don't have any staff as they won't work for nothing or you have to make up their pay and then you lose money.

 

American's do tip. So if you price your product so a hefty tip isn't required you look expensive and your customers go elsewhere.

 

British and continental European customers are somewhere in between, and this causes a clash and a problem for the cruise companies.

 

British customers​ are price sensitive, P&O probably more than Cunard, so a wages inclusive price looks less attractive than one with an undisclosed surcharge. However so far both companies have persuaded most of their existing customer base to pay the voluntary amounts, but for how much longer.

 

Up to now both had a mainly elderly customer base and had convinced​ them it is traditional to pay and would simply not be the done thing to do anything else.

 

However P&O has been widening its brand to a new and younger customer group who are less convinced they should pay an undisclosed voluntary wage surcharge.

 

Experienced cruisers are aware of 'tips' but this new group of younger cruisers are probably booking direct through the website, where the surcharge is not mentioned in the booking process and it is a bit of a shock when a substantial amount is added to the bill. Many such people will take the view the amounts being asked for are excessive and go beyond being a tip, so simply remove them. You then get the cascade to the traditional customers with some thinking if they are not paying why am I. Some of those traditional customers will continue to pay, but some won't, and the situation escalates.

 

NCL have recently introduced 'tips' included' prices on all its cruises sold through its UK and European websites, but the same cruises sold in the US have an additional service charge. It did this because it has a much younger customer base than Cunard or P&O. The result was it completely failed to convince its British and European customers to pay a voluntary wage surcharge, so pushed up the prices to include it in the base fare.

 

If you want an inclusive price just wait a few years when certainly P&O, and eventually even Cunard, will follow NCL's lead as more and more people stop paying the voluntary wage surcharge and it becomes uneconomic for them to continue with the current situation, as it did in Australia.

[ToadOfToadHall]

It never ceases to amaze me how people from the US refer to not tipping as "stiffing the staff". Has it ever occurred to you that it's the employer that is "stiffing the staff" ?

[GUT2407]

It never ceases to amaze me how people from the US refer to not tipping as "stiffing the staff". Has it ever occurred to you that it's the employer that is "stiffing the staff" ?

And a govt that allows a wage of $2 an hour.

 

Actually doesn't seem to occur to many.

 

And never understood how it's any of my business what someone is paid (other than me and Mrs Gut, maybe the kids too).

[babs135]

A hypothetical situation. A couple book a cruise and inbetween paying and sailing something happens that blows their budget to smithereens. what do they do? They can enjoy the cruise without spending a penny, after all food and drink is provided 24/7, there is entertainment, etc, etc. But what happens when they get to a port that they have always dreamed of visiting? Yes, they can wander round the port again not spending much, perhaps a coffee and something to drink but what about that excursion they had wanted to take but now they have had to decide that they can't do all the trips they had wanted to do because of their reduced circumstances.

 

And then suddenly they realise that a saving can be made by stopping the gratuities. As far as this couple is concerned, the crew gets paid and why should they (the couple) give them money that they can use to enhance the holiday experience; perhaps to visit the one site that they have dreamed about since booking.

 

What do you say to this couple? Tell them their circumstances are unfortunate but that they shouldn't 'take it out' on the crew.

[Teddy123]

A hypothetical situation. A couple book a cruise and inbetween paying and sailing something happens that blows their budget to smithereens. what do they do? They can enjoy the cruise without spending a penny, after all food and drink is provided 24/7, there is entertainment, etc, etc. But what happens when they get to a port that they have always dreamed of visiting? Yes, they can wander round the port again not spending much, perhaps a coffee and something to drink but what about that excursion they had wanted to take but now they have had to decide that they can't do all the trips they had wanted to do because of their reduced circumstances.

 

And then suddenly they realise that a saving can be made by stopping the gratuities. As far as this couple is concerned, the crew gets paid and why should they (the couple) give them money that they can use to enhance the holiday experience; perhaps to visit the one site that they have dreamed about since booking.

 

What do you say to this couple? Tell them their circumstances are unfortunate but that they shouldn't 'take it out' on the crew.

The basic options are spend it all on yourself or give the crew some. If you believe the crew are paid enough that they don't rely on the gratuities, why not spend it all on yourself? If you believe the crew actually rely on the gratuities, and are paid on the assumption they get them, then it's up to your conscience.

[ToadOfToadHall]

And a govt that allows a wage of $2 an hour.

 

Actually doesn't seem to occur to many.

 

And never understood how it's any of my business what someone is paid (other than me and Mrs Gut, maybe the kids too).

 

Indeed yes, someone's rate of pay is between them and their employer.

 

But you do not appear to be correct regarding US minimum wage. It varies by state, the lowest is Wyoming at $5.15 (£4) and the highest is DC at $11.50 (£8.90). The most common is around $7.50 (£5.80). So it's not anywhere near $2.

[Teddy123]

And never understood how it's any of my business what someone is paid (other than me and Mrs Gut, maybe the kids too).

Some people care whether the people who are serving them are paid a fair amount and believe that in order for them to get a fair amount they should receive the auto gratuities. Whether this is the right system or not is another matter. Other people think they get a fair amount without the gratuities - and nobody knows for sure which is right. Others, it seems, simply don't care.

[Oppalopa]

My point is that because the tips are in $ I would rather give some of the staff I deal with pounds in an envelope as it suits me to do it that way.

If the tips are removable then people may well take that choice.

We came off the short trip to Bruges last month and we saw a lot more people removing tips than ever before.

Then shame on them.

[luckymal]

The sooner Cunard increase the fares to build in the gratuities, the better for the crew and for passengers.

I would hate the tips to be built in the fare, the staff would have no need to go the extra yard to make you happy. Our friends in the U.S. have different ideas re tipping, I would think if some body said "good morning" they would expect a tip, yes we do tip in Britain but not to the same extent as the American:rolleyes:

[Wendy&Grumpy]

Not so easy for them to "just leave" and find something better.

Sorry - it is NOT an optional extra - it is an expectation. You may not like it, but that is the truth.

 

If I attend a wedding and reception, technically, it is my option to give the newlyweds a present, but of course it's expected. Could I attend and not give a gift? Yes. It's technically my option. But by doing so, I'd be a cheap, ungrateful guest.

 

The same applies to tips while cruising. Like it or not.

 

Apples and oranges.

 

You might want to consider a bit more resesrch, using sources other than passenger message boards. There's a reason why cruise ship jobs are highly coveted and extremely difficult to get.

 

Tipping is a choice, not a requirement, and cruise lines should not be making it an expectation. If it's "needed" to pay salaries, then pay salaries and raise fares if necessary. Don't use it to offset so the line can pocket more.

[insanemagnet]

I would hate the tips to be built in the fare, the staff would have no need to go the extra yard to make you happy.

 

So you expect the cruise ship staff you don't tip to do a terrible job, and they would not want to provide good service for professional pride?

 

Anyway even if that was the case, as the automatic charge will be pooled, that creates a break between the service and the reward. The link between the two is now the satisfaction questionnaire, which the employer will use to determine if someone deserves a full share from the pool. So why do you need a separate payment from the customer.

[BlueRiband]

.... but what about that excursion they had wanted to take but now they have had to decide that they can't do all the trips they had wanted to do because of their reduced circumstances.

 

And then suddenly they realize that a saving can be made by stopping the gratuities....

 

What do you say to this couple? Tell them their circumstances are unfortunate but that they shouldn't 'take it out' on the crew.

 

I'd say that they should have read the fine print before committing themselves to a big sum of money - be it a cruise, a cell phone contract, a car lease, or anything else. It's not "hidden". Every mailing or email that I've received from Cunard has the fine print at the bottom that includes the mention of gratuities, port fees and taxes. Not bolded but it is right there. (If they missed the part about gratuities than they surely missed the part about cancellation penalties. What do you say to a couple who paid for their dream vacation but a emergency heart surgery will now mean they will lose every penny?)

[balf]

I would hate the tips to be built in the fare, the staff would have no need to go the extra yard to make you happy. Our friends in the U.S. have different ideas re tipping, I would think if some body said "good morning" they would expect a tip, yes we do tip in Britain but not to the same extent as the American:rolleyes:

 

Do you really believe that, have you ever sailed with a line where tipping is built in to the fare and you are told that there is no need to pay extra. I have, and received the finest service I have ever had on a cruise (Saga). And I've had some very indifferent service with Cunard at times over the years, and left the tips intact.

 

All these problems would be solved by quoting one up front price, and people would have to decide if they could afford it. And I would no longer be expected to sub for the refuseniks and be expected to pay extra for each "good morning".

 

David

[RJChatsworth]

We always leave the auto-tip on, but have occasionally given extra for exceptional service. I asked our cabin steward about him receiving tips in sterling or any other currency instead of US dollars. He said it made little difference to him because Cunard has very advantageous currency exchange rates for crew.

[Ergates The Ant]

Maybe another timely reminder that in the UK, we are used to paying an upfront cost for our purchases, including taxes and the wages of the staff producing the goods or services we are buying.

What the US call tips, or gratuities, or whatever, is part of the staff wages. What we in the UK, and countries like Australia, call tips, is extra money given freely IN ADDITION to the staff wages. The sooner cruise lines operating out of the UK include this amount into the cost of the cruise lines, the better.

Since when has withholding someone's pay as an incentive to provide good service, been a legal or ethical practice in the UK? And why should we be expected to go along with it? The cruise lines have successfully accommodated Australian cultural preferences, by including the staff pay in the cruise cost, they should do it here in the UK too.

In this case, the OP would have paid for their cruise, and could enjoy it without this additional pressure. It's like buying your cruise on hire purchase! Always a worry that you might not be able to meet the future payments.

[transatlantic fan]

Maybe another way would be the Cunard fare includes tips and the early saver and saver fare do not.

[insanemagnet]

Maybe another way would be the Cunard fare includes tips and the early saver and saver fare do not.

 

So your hope is that people who seek out cheaper cruises will voluntarily pay the optional charge, which others do not have to pay.

 

Nothing like being an optimist.

 

The simple thing to do is what NCL has done. Book a cruise through their American website and you pay American prices and are expected to pay the daily service charge. Book the same cruise through their UK website and you pay the UK price that includes the service charge.

 

Americans who like to tip lots to get a perceived better service are happy.

 

British customers know it is all included, but obviously​ can reward exceptional service if they want to.

[majortom10]

It never ceases to amaze me how people from the US refer to not tipping as "stiffing the staff". Has it ever occurred to you that it's the employer that is "stiffing the staff" ?

 

I agree with your sentiment 100% it is the employers "stiffing" the staff in the hope that cruisers will tip to boost wages to a level the staff are happy with and they do this so it boosts the companies profits just look at the profits Carnival plc are making currently.

[BlueRiband]

Cunard had a golden opportunity to pay its staff "decent" wages and eliminating auto-gratuities altogether: it could have left its ships registered in Southampton.

 

With UK-registered ships Cunard would have been required to pay EU wage scales per the Equality Act 2010. Of course fares would have to dramatically increase - but isn't that the right thing for an employer to do? Pay decent wages and have them rolled into the fare upfront rather than have passengers subsidize them through "hidden fees"?

 

Yeah, right. That would happen when a flock of pigs fly over the starboard side. Instead the majority of passengers would complain that Cunard fares are too high and would defect to a competitor.

[Teddy123]

With UK-registered ships Cunard would have been required to pay EU wage scales per the Equality Act 2010

Not true. The Equality Act is about discrimination based on sex etc. There is no such thing as "EU wage scales". On UK-registered ships the UK minimum wage doesn't apply if the person isn't normally resident in the UK.

[jburton59]

Indeed yes, someone's rate of pay is between them and their employer.

 

But you do not appear to be correct regarding US minimum wage. It varies by state, the lowest is Wyoming at $5.15 (£4) and the highest is DC at $11.50 (£8.90). The most common is around $7.50 (£5.80). So it's not anywhere near $2.

The rates you are quoting are not for people in service industries that include tipping. States have a lower minimum wage for servers. My husband gets paid 2.00 an hour as a waiter in Wisconsin. Pretty standard rate outside big cities.

 

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[Underwatr]

Indeed yes, someone's rate of pay is between them and their employer.

 

But you do not appear to be correct regarding US minimum wage. It varies by state, the lowest is Wyoming at $5.15 (£4) and the highest is DC at $11.50 (£8.90). The most common is around $7.50 (£5.80). So it's not anywhere near $2.

The American federal government requires a wage of at least $2.13 per hour be paid to employees that receive at least $30 per month in tips. If wages and tips do not equal the federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour during any week, the employer is required to increase cash wages to compensate.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipped_wage_in_the_United_States

 

But the above doesn't apply to foreign-flagged cruise ships.

[BlueRiband]

Not true. The Equality Act is about discrimination based on sex etc. There is no such thing as "EU wage scales". On UK-registered ships the UK minimum wage doesn't apply if the person isn't normally resident in the UK.

 

You are correct in that it should have been UK wage scales compatible with British crew members. Race and sex discrimination is covered in Race Relations Act, 1976. It was late 2011 that Part 5 Equality Act 2010 was applied to ships, hovercraft, and seafarers. There was a complaint that UK law did not comply with EU law so that in order to meet its treaty obligations, the UK government was obliged to bring UK law into line with European law. (That was before Brexit so who knows what happens to these UK/EU law entanglements going forward.) It became unlawful to pay seafarers or contract workers recruited outside the UK a different pay rate compared to those recruited from an European Economic Area state.