Non Refundable Deposit is now the default pricing

[Homosassa]

I am in the minority on this, but I am very happy to hear that the cruise lines are going to nonrefundable deposits and locked in fares. I feel that it can only add to a quality increase in the cruising experience.

 

I have watched the on board quality declined across the board for about the last fifteen years and put it down to the lower per diem per passenger that the cruise line expects to be available when all the nickle and diming games on fares finish.

 

If a cruise line can depend on a higher cash base to calculate the expected per diem on a cruise, then there will be more available in the way of overall quality in food, entertainment and other onboard experiences.

 

So, I will continue booking my cruises as I have since 1976, find a cruise at a price that I am happy with and book. To cover those unexpected life zigs and zags, we buy insurance.

 

Here's to hopefully improved cruising quality.

[Tampa Girl]

I am in the minority on this, but I am very happy to hear that the cruise lines are going to nonrefundable deposits and locked in fares. I feel that it can only add to a quality increase in the cruising experience.

 

I have watched the on board quality declined across the board for about the last fifteen years and put it down to the lower per diem per passenger that the cruise line expects to be available when all the nickle and diming games on fares finish.

 

If a cruise line can depend on a higher cash base to calculate the expected per diem on a cruise, then there will be more available in the way of overall quality in food, entertainment and other onboard experiences.

 

So, I will continue booking my cruises as I have since 1976, find a cruise at a price that I am happy with and book. To cover those unexpected life zigs and zags, we buy insurance.

 

Here's to hopefully improved cruising quality.

 

I question the logic of your argument. First, there are still refundable fares, apparently at a higher cruise cost. Secondly, insurance will reimburse the cruiser for non-refundable deposits, thereby removing the "expected per diem' on a cruise if it is cancelled. Third, the idea that one would put down a $5000 - $7000 non-refundable on a Grand Voyage, for instance, without having insurance to protect themselves in the even of an unexpected inability to take the cruise, is unrealistic.

 

If you believe that HAL needs more cash in order to improve the quality of our cruising, would it not be fairer to simply increase the fares instead of trying to trick the customer into plopping down a deposit that he/she later finds is non-refundable. And I deliberately use the word "trick" because that is exactly what I feel HAL is doing. For instance, I tried a dummy booking on our 2018 Grand Asia, and after five steps into the booking, I still had not reached the point where I could find a refundable deposit, although they apparently exist. What I did find, however, was a page where one had to either accept or decline the Cancellation Protection Plan before proceeding to finish the booking. Another reason, BTW, to believe that this Plan does reimburse these non-refundable deposits. And if it should not, requiring one to check yay or nay on this policy is really deceptive.

[iancal]

I think that HAL has every right to structure their fares and their booking conditions in any way that they wish.

 

But...I also feel that they have a duty to clearly enunciate or clearly outline those conditions. On the web site, on the phone, with TA's. No hiding those conditions in the fine print or in some innocuous notice far down when someone is about to hit the buy button.

 

It appears that HAL is failing miserably in this duty of care to their customers. This is a highly reputable cruise line, not a used car dealership.

[Cruise Junky]

I think that HAL has every right to structure their fares and their booking conditions in any way that they wish.

 

But...I also feel that they have a duty to clearly enunciate or clearly outline those conditions. On the web site, on the phone, with TA's. No hiding those conditions in the fine print or in some innocuous notice far down when someone is about to hit the buy button.

 

It appears that HAL is failing miserably in this duty of care to their customers. This is a highly reputable cruise line, not a used car dealership.

 

Very well said and I could not agree more. We decided to abandon our HAL plans after this non refundable exercise and book with Azamara.

[bUU]

It is unreasonable to expect full disclosure over the telephone - cruise line, hotel, airline, etc. Imagine if an airline was to read all 35 pages of the Contract of Carriage over the telephone - you'd lose your seats before the agent could sell you the ticket! Would you even agree to sit there and listen for as long as it takes the read it all to you?

 

It is sufficient for a telephone agent - any telephone agent, for anything - to say that terms and conditions apply, and to make that information available through a website reference or reference to the printed terms and conditions available on request. If the patron doesn't request, or doesn't wait to purchase until they've received the printed terms and conditions, read them, understood them, and agreed to them, that's on the patron.

[JudithLynne]

I am totally against this new policy. I have a Chase Sapphire card which would insure my deposit for covered reasons, but there are many non-covered reasons to cancel a cruise booked far out.

This reminds me of the anger I felt when I discovered that one could not pre-book a shore excursion w/o paying in full, and could not use OBC for payment.

[kazu]

It is unreasonable to expect full disclosure over the telephone - cruise line, hotel, airline, etc. Imagine if an airline was to read all 35 pages of the Contract of Carriage over the telephone - you'd lose your seats before the agent could sell you the ticket! Would you even agree to sit there and listen for as long as it takes the read it all to you?

 

It is sufficient for a telephone agent - any telephone agent, for anything - to say that terms and conditions apply, and to make that information available through a website reference or reference to the printed terms and conditions available on request. If the patron doesn't request, or doesn't wait to purchase until they've received the printed terms and conditions, read them, understood them, and agreed to them, that's on the patron.

 

Sorry, disagree.

 

A key condition such as non refundable should be stated. No need to read all the terms and conditions.

 

My call to inquire about a price drop immediately informed me it was non refundable in all ways. It took just a few words to say it.

 

No one needs to read all the terms and conditions but if a portion or all of a cruise is non refundable, then I think it behooves all who are selling the cruise to disclose. This was not common for HAL (unless you asked for it). It's a special deal (so HAL says) and will be off on the 27th (if they don't extend it).

 

If there is a "catch" to a deal, it should be disclosed. It only takes a few words. Less than I typed here ;)

[bUU]

We'll have to agree to disagree. Generally speaking, courts will enforce terms and conditions that are incorporated by reference. They make no distinction between non-refundability and, say, the ability for the cruise line to change itinerary. So if the latter is an enforceable tenet of the contract then the non-refundability is as well.

[Cruise Junky]

We'll have to agree to disagree. Generally speaking, courts will enforce terms and conditions that are incorporated by reference. They make no distinction between non-refundability and, say, the ability for the cruise line to change itinerary. So if the latter is an enforceable tenet of the contract then the non-refundability is as well.

 

This is a major shift for the cruise business as a whole and HAL specifically. Until it becomes the norm like airline tickets, it should be more apparent to the consumer. By not doing so HAL gives the impression of trying to pull a fast one. You may chose to think otherwise but I don't think the majority of HAL's clientele would.

[bUU]

It will be interesting to see how well CCL does over the next year or two with two or three of their lines adopting similar approaches.

[iancal]

We make hotel reservations often. And a number of them are made in advance, for stays of 2-3 or more nights, and are non refundable. We sometimes accept this when our plans are definite and the offer is excellent....often 25-30 percent discount or extras are included.

 

Always, whether booking by phone or on line with Hilton, Accor, Marriott, Melia, and Best Western the terms of booking are clear. We have booked non refundable rooms with each of these chains in the past nine months.

 

Each one, website or CSR, clearly indicated that they were non refundable and that our cc was being billed immediately. The CSR's generally told me at least twice-once to confirm the rate and again just prior to processing the card payment.

 

If these organizations can manage to do it in a way that make it impossible for the customer to misunderstand why cannot HAL?

 

Unless of course it is intentional. If it is, then it is bad business to treat your customers and prospects in this manner.

[kazu]

We make hotel reservations often. And a number of them are made in advance and are non refundable. We sometimes accept this simply because our plans are definite and the offer is excellent....often 25-30 percent discount or extras are included.

 

Always, whether booking by phone or on line with Hilton, Accor, Marriott, Melia, and Best Western. We have booked with all of these chains in the past nine month.

 

Each one, website or CSR, clearly indicated that they were non refundable and that our cc was being billed immediately.

 

If these organizations can manage to do it in a way that make it impossible for the customer to misunderstand why cannot HAL?

 

Unless of course it is intentional. If it is, then it is bad business to treat your customers and prospects in this manner.

 

Amen and +1.

[bUU]

If these organizations can manage to do it in a way that make it impossible for the customer to misunderstand why cannot HAL?

Of course they can, but people are still going to complain about it, still going to claim that the warning was not clear enough or that it was never delivered, etc. At what point does it become the buyer's personal responsibility?

[kazu]

Of course they can, but people are still going to complain about it, still going to claim that the warning was not clear enough, etc. At what point does it become the buyer's personal responsibility?

 

All HAL has to do is show the different cruise pricing and options like the hotels do - pretty simple. But, probably more than their IT can handle:rolleyes::D

[Tampa Girl]

Of course they can, but people are still going to complain about it, still going to claim that the warning was not clear enough or that it was never delivered, etc. At what point does it become the buyer's personal responsibility?

 

As any contract attorney will tell you, it depends upon the fact of the case.

[bUU]

All HAL has to do is show the different cruise pricing and options like the hotels do - pretty simple.

On the website they do.

 

The claim is that they don't do it on the phone.

 

As any contract attorney will tell you, it depends upon the fact of the case.

Precisely. In the case of online bookings, there's no question that notice is given. In the case of phone bookings, it's he said she said unless there's a recording.

[iancal]

My issue is not that HAL is doing it. That is their right. I may not like it but that is beside the point.

 

My issue is that they are not making it clear to their customers.

 

This has zero to do with other CCL cruise lines or any other hospitality business for that matter. Would someone who got caught out by HAL's failure to be open and forthright about their booking policy really care about other cruise lines? No, they care only about their HAL booking.

 

This is about being honest and straightforward with your customers and about your duty of care as a vendor.

 

Plus there is huge difference in doing it on line in small print at the bottom of a screen or doing it several times in bold, and again prior to the customer hitting the buy button. Try going on some of the hotel majors and see how they handle it. You might be surprised how circumspect HAL's notice appears compared to others in the hospitality industry.

[freestyling]

All HAL has to do is show the different cruise pricing and options like the hotels do - pretty simple. But, probably more than their IT can handle:rolleyes::D

I can only imagine the mess that could occur! :confused:

[bUU]

My issue is that they are not making it clear to their customers.

We cannot discuss what happens on the telephone because we cannot both call at the same time and hear the same thing, but what is your objection to what Holland America is doing to inform those booking online?

[kazu]

On the website they do.

 

The claim is that they don't do it on the phone.

 

No, reread my post please. I said it would be nice if they showed the different options (like hotels do). Terms and conditions are much clearer. (Ie. price for refundable/flexible and non refundable)

 

And, by the way, when they initally lowered the price that little fine print term and condition was not there. They didn't get it there for a day or two.

 

The phone complaint is a legitimate one. Look how small that print is compared to the size of the pricing. Your pic not mine ;). Why not just put NON-REFUNDABLE on top?

[Tampa Girl]

I can only imagine the mess that could occur! :confused:

 

What is so difficult about listing the prices with a non-refundable deposit and prices with refundable deposits? Right now I can't find the prices for the refundable deposits, although they are apparently available. I find it deceptive that HAL is only advertising the prices with non-refundable deposits if, in fact, there are prices for the same cruise with refundable deposits.

[bUU]

No, reread my post please. I said it would be nice if they showed the different options (like hotels do).

It would be nice. I'm sure that if that turns out to be best for their business then they'll do so. I posted earlier in the thread how Carnival does it. They have made it very difficult to select the alternatives. There's nothing wrong with what either cruise line is doing, even though it isn't in the customers' favor. Many things that companies do isn't in their customers' best interest but rather in the best interest of their shareholders instead.

 

The cruise lines do seem to be making it clear that refundable bookings are messing with their business. They're not obligated to make it easy to book refundable bookings. They're only obligated to provide the terms and conditions of the mass market offering in accordance with our society's rules for such things.

 

If I were a shareholder I would want them to do whatever they can to optimize the business, even if that means dissatisfying a few customers. You cannot make an omelet without breaking some eggs. It would only be a problem if it dissatisfied many customers. We passengers are not in a position to know whether it is a few or many passengers dissatisfied. The cruise line is. Indeed, our best information about whether this dissatisfies few customers or many is what the cruise line actually does. Right now, the best information is reflected in what we see them doing. If they get different information as time goes on, that will invariably be reflected in changes we will see them make.

 

And, by the way, when they initally lowered the price that little fine print term and condition was not there. They didn't get it there for a day or two.

And that constitutes a conspiracy to keep information from the customer rather than a mistake? Really? This is my big concern: Turning this into an accusation against the cruise line instead of taking it as it is for what it is.

 

The phone complaint is a legitimate one.

Like I said earlier, there's no point to discussing it since they're no way to know. I suggest anyone who feels that they've not received proper notice over the telephone to file a complaint with the proper state Attorney General. The only way any of us will be able to know that the complain is a legitimate one is if an Attorney General finds merit in the complaint. Until then, like I said, it is pointless to even discuss it.

 

Beyond that, I personally would advise people to avoid buying anything this expensive over the telephone without fully researching the service being offered, reviewing the full service specification before picking up the telephone. Book online, sit with a travel agent, or do research in advance of booking by telephone. That solves whatever problem there may be with the telephone agents, entirely.

 

Look how small that print is compared to the size of the pricing. Your pic not mine ;). Why not just put NON-REFUNDABLE on top?

You want companies to make the least attractive aspects of their offering prominent. I'm sorry, but with respect that's a very naive view of how advertising and promotion works in our society.

 

Again: Let's be clear: It's okay to not like it, but to claim it isn't the right thing to do is self-ratified nonsense.

 

What is so difficult about listing the prices with a non-refundable deposit and prices with refundable deposits?

Probably nothing. It's probably simply a decision based on what's legal and best for the business.

 

Now if you want to start talking about passing laws to make these kinds of business practices illegal, I'm with you. But until then, and until you're successful getting such laws passed, this is how things are, and therefore how these businesses must operate, based on their obligations to their owners.

[Tampa Girl]

And, by the way, when they initally lowered the price that little fine print term and condition was not there. They didn't get it there for a day or two.

 

Yes, and thank you-know-who that Mame42 and I both booked 2018 Grand Asia during those early days - and that I had had the presence of mind to print out the website, reflecting the absence of the non-refundable deposit. Rarely have I been that decisive in a booking. Unusual luck.

[kazu]

Yes, and thank you-know-who that Mame42 and I both booked 2018 Grand Asia during those early days - and that I had had the presence of mind to print out the website, reflecting the absence of the non-refundable deposit. Rarely have I been that decisive in a booking. Unusual luck.

 

Thank heavens you did that :). Smart move.

 

Pretty sad you had to do it, but a very good move. :)

[bUU]

Yes, and thank you-know-who that Mame42 and I both booked 2018 Grand Asia during those early days - and that I had had the presence of mind to print out the website, reflecting the absence of the non-refundable deposit. Rarely have I been that decisive in a booking. Unusual luck.

I always do this. Every time I book something online I print not only the receipt but the page I ordered from, and the current terms and conditions as of that date.