Holy Land

[RocketMan275]

28 minutes ago, ed01106 said:

One of the most interesting places to visit.  And thanks to archeologists much of it is no longer buried.  

 

 

I appreciate your answers.  I'm truly torn.  The earliest date for a Holy Land experience is 2023 so I have time.

[RocketMan275]

8 minutes ago, Markanddonna said:

So much of it fantastic in many respects. Do your homework and you will develop the instincts to  know fact from tradition. As a Christian, I use the history from scripture, ancient writing from Josephus and the very early church fathers, and archeaology to guide my visits.

The problem remains, how does one find a tour that is fact and not suspect tradition?

[cruisemom42]

23 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

The problem remains, how does one find a tour that is fact and not suspect tradition?

 

This is the universal question, isn't it?  

 

How do we ever know what is "fact"?  Even the ancient writers and sources that we have access to today had their own biases and agendas. Roman historians took care to paint Cleopatra as a grasping, overreaching femme fatale and thus she is still thought of like that, rather than a very clever monarch who did all she could to keep Egypt independent of Rome....  Similarly, Josephus's writings don't always tally with other written records of the period, and he may have written his commentaries with his largely Roman audience firmly in mind.

 

As a traveler and someone very interested in ancient history, we read what we can, we learn, we see, and we make decisions based on the available evidence. The more we study and prepare, the easier it becomes to understand what we can hope to "know" and what will forever be "unknowable".  

 

I have had far, far too many guides in my lifetime who tell tall tales to tourists because they think it is what tourists want to hear. And many do. I've pointed out for years on the Italy boards that a lot of guides don't clearly separate fact from "stories" -- and I get told that people just want to be entertained. So......there's that.  It just kills me when I hear some of the things that are said on tours in Ephesus and Pompeii, for example.

 

In Israel (or other holy sites), it becomes even harder because there is also faith. Those for whom faith is an important component of their visit may find the historical sites to be important not solely in a historical sense but as a setting for affirming/reaffirming their faith. Does the history have to be 100% evident for that to happen?  I would think not.

 

[Markanddonna]

I discovered that all the companies we hired had excellent guides with degrees in relevant areas.  We used Guided Tours Israel and Yonaton was our guide. Some specific denominations have a strong history of using tradition in making theological decisions. I don't want to start a controversy online,  but you know some groups venerate Saints and relics.

[ed01106]

1 hour ago, RocketMan275 said:

The problem remains, how does one find a tour that is fact and not suspect tradition?

I think you will find most tour guides will phrase it neutrally, e.g. “This is the the location that Christians believe X happened”. Of course if you choose a tour group that advertises itself as gear for a specific faith then they may present the tenants of said faith as fact.

 

The vast majority of tour guides (like the Israeli population in general) are secular/agnostic in belief (and Jewish in heritage)

[Markanddonna]

5 minutes ago, ed01106 said:

I think you will find most tour guides will phrase it neutrally, e.g. “This is the the location that Christians believe X happened”. Of course if you choose a tour group that advertises itself as gear for a specific faith then they may present the tenants of said faith as fact.

 

The vast majority of tour guides (like the Israeli population in general) are secular/agnostic in belief (and Jewish in heritage)

Very true!  Avoid groups that have a strong religious affiliation. But, most Protestants who have every little influence in Israel don't believe in the accuracy of most traditional beliefs. They also don't operate any of the sites. There are all kinds of shades of grey on this topic.

[oceandream]

Hi to all. I have been reading this post for a while and appreciate everyone's input. I am still unsure if land or cruise is best for Holy land. There is a cruise that goes to Israel soon and they offer the main excursions that we are interested to take; however, if these ports got cancel at  the last minute, I would be very dissapointed as it happened to us with a previous cruise. Land or cruise that is the question?

[That sinking feeling]

Visiting these sites would only be of interest to me if the history of them was guaranteed to be 100% true. Unfortunately religious teachings or most of them just aren't true. I dont want fairy stories when visiting important historical sites.

[RocketMan275]

5 hours ago, That sinking feeling said:

Visiting these sites would only be of interest to me if the history of them was guaranteed to be 100% true. Unfortunately religious teachings or most of them just aren't true. I dont want fairy stories when visiting important historical sites.

That's what bothers me.  How do I know that these sites were actual and not something that someone made up to generate donations from Pilgrims.

 

That aside, IIRC, I saw a documentary on Israel where it was pointed out that the street in question was actually buried 20 feet below today's street.

Edited February 10, 2020 by RocketMan275

[That sinking feeling]

I suppose my issue I question everything. If something doesnt make logical sense then I need convincing. Too much of this Holy Land stuff can be nothing but heresay. Just because its written down somewhere doesnt make it fact. Pretty sure Noah was 500 years old when he had 3 sons. Thats some going.

[R,D,W]

Hmmm....

Seems my  original post has taken a turn.   While I did receive some very good suggestions the thread is now discussing the merits of visiting the Holy Land.  It seems to me that each traveler brings his or her perspective to any region we visit.  Whether that perspective is based on fact or fiction or belief in the unseen.   

My husband and I have considered all of our options and  are ready to book our trip.  Thank you to all of those who graciously aided us in our decision.  

[cruisemom42]

15 hours ago, oceandream said:

There is a cruise that goes to Israel soon and they offer the main excursions that we are interested to take; however, if these ports got cancel at  the last minute, I would be very dissapointed as it happened to us with a previous cruise. Land or cruise that is the question?

 

That can definitely happen. I can only repeat what I said earlier: if your prime reason for taking the trip is to see Israel, you would be better served taking a land trip.

 

Or think of it this way:  if you buy the cruise plus the airfare to get from where the cruise starts/ends to where you live, AND then find out onboard (or earlier) that the ports in Israel are cancelled, how would you feel?  If you'd feel like the cruise was a loss, then I recommend a land trip. If you'd only be a bit disappointed, then perhaps the cruise would make sense for you.

[cruisemom42]

3 hours ago, That sinking feeling said:

I suppose my issue I question everything. If something doesnt make logical sense then I need convincing. Too much of this Holy Land stuff can be nothing but heresay. Just because its written down somewhere doesnt make it fact. Pretty sure Noah was 500 years old when he had 3 sons. Thats some going.

 

As someone who has studied a lot of history and archaeology, just keep in mind that often so-called "legends" or myths have a grain of truth to them. Remember, prior to Heinrich Schliemann discovering the site of ancient Troy, most scholars doubted that a Troy or a Trojan War ever existed -- Homer's epic poem was considered a great work, but fictional. Now we at least know that there was a city called Troy that was destroyed by fire at about the right time period. Was there a giant wooden horse involved?  No way of knowing. Still, it doesn't negate the actual event. And isn't it interesting to know as much as that from a time period more than 3,000 years ago?

 

 

[oceandream]

Thank you cruisemom42 for your advice.  I like the way you think; you are wise and smart!

[That sinking feeling]

5 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

As someone who has studied a lot of history and archaeology, just keep in mind that often so-called "legends" or myths have a grain of truth to them. Remember, prior to Heinrich Schliemann discovering the site of ancient Troy, most scholars doubted that a Troy or a Trojan War ever existed -- Homer's epic poem was considered a great work, but fictional. Now we at least know that there was a city called Troy that was destroyed by fire at about the right time period. Was there a giant wooden horse involved?  No way of knowing. Still, it doesn't negate the actual event. And isn't it interesting to know as much as that from a time period more than 3,000 years ago?

 

 

It is amazing when scientists/archiologists discover ancient lands. And I would love to visit these places.

 

I draw the line at wooden horses, unless of course the said wooden horse had wheels and was being pushed around. Then why not.

 

No person surely believes there was a horse at some point, made of wood, that moved of its own volition.

 

I will stick to watching and reading the works of Richard Dawkins.

[pacruise804]

On 2/9/2020 at 9:48 PM, oceandream said:

Hi to all. I have been reading this post for a while and appreciate everyone's input. I am still unsure if land or cruise is best for Holy land. There is a cruise that goes to Israel soon and they offer the main excursions that we are interested to take; however, if these ports got cancel at  the last minute, I would be very dissapointed as it happened to us with a previous cruise. Land or cruise that is the question?

I agree with cruisemom's advice that if you would be disappointed in missing the ports then I would book a land trip.

 

On 2/10/2020 at 2:50 AM, That sinking feeling said:

Visiting these sites would only be of interest to me if the history of them was guaranteed to be 100% true. Unfortunately religious teachings or most of them just aren't true. I dont want fairy stories when visiting important historical sites.

My family took a trip to Gettysburg (a famous battlefield in American history).  Most of the history in this town is less than 200 years old but I still know there is no guarantee all information presented is guaranteed to be 100% true (especially the ghost stories 😉 ).  We still were able to gain a deeper appreciation for the history of the area and have a great vacation, while taking much of it with a grain of salt.

 

 

[RocketMan275]

5 hours ago, pacruise804 said:

My family took a trip to Gettysburg (a famous battlefield in American history).  Most of the history in this town is less than 200 years old but I still know there is no guarantee all information presented is guaranteed to be 100% true (especially the ghost stories 😉 ).  We still were able to gain a deeper appreciation for the history of the area and have a great vacation, while taking much of it with a grain of salt.

Not sure Gettysburg is a good analogy.  You can be fairly certain that the terrain has changed very little.  There are even photographs of the battlefield.   There are contemporaneous accounts of the battle.  Of course, Gettysburg is recent history compared to the Holy Land.

[pacruise804]

The point I was trying to make is that even recent history can't be guaranteed accurate.  I thought @That sinking feeling was concerned with historical accuracy (or rather inaccuracies) more than the topography, but I may have read that post incorrectly.

[clo]

On 2/3/2020 at 10:45 AM, cruisemom42 said:

If your main reason for the cruise would be visiting the Holy Land, I would advise looking at land tours.

 

We did Israel with Gate1 and it was fantastic. I described our guide as "a Jew but he knew his Old and New Testaments equally well." Now this wasn't a tour with any religious slant but I'm guessing those are available also.

[clo]

On 2/6/2020 at 9:35 AM, R,D,W said:

we also want to visit Athens. 

Having been to Turkey, we were actually kinda ho-hum in Athens. Having been to Ephesus, the Acropolis was a let down.  Just us I'm sure.

[John Bull]

Ashdod, the port for Jerusalem. Is all-too-frequently cancelled. It’s close to the Gaza Strip, and tends to be cancelled at very short notice when there.s Israeli / Palestinian grief.

 

But Haifa (the port for Nazareth) is pretty reliable, it’s in the north where Israelis and Palestinians have learned to live in harmony.

 

if you’re very keen on a cruise rather than a land trip, choose one that visits both, and preferably with an overbite at one.

Often when Ashdod is cancelled at short notice there’s room at Haifa. And Jerusalem is reachable as a day-trip from Haifa.

Weve cruised to Israel twice,

- first time with a stop at Haifa and an overnite (two days) at Ashdod - no problem,

- second time  (December) an overnite in Ashdod got switched to an overnite at Haifa. Fouled up our car rental plans and those taking ship’s tour to Jerusalem had a very long day. But it worked out.

 

JB 😀