Ruby Princess police investigation

[The_Big_M]

1 hour ago, DiamondFour said:

It looks like the Prime Minister of this country himself is getting directly involved in this case now in regards to the special commission of inquiry.

 

Read for yourselves: https://www.news.com.au/national/nsw-act/news/coronavirus-australia-pm-says-ruby-princess-questioning-was-out-of-line/news-story/fb4676f3721948c02275f631a74e1602

 

Normally they should keep out of those investigations. If we want the answers then ALL officials should be treated equally and asked the tough questions not just the Ruby Princess crew.

 

So how come he wasn't saying that when accusations were levelled at the cruise ships and their crew?

[BRANDEE]

27 minutes ago, DiamondFour said:

Its funny you say that because trump put on a massive banquet in his honour when he visited the USA.

 

I agree that he should be keeping out of proceedings. If mistakes were made by NSW Health then the truth needs to come out so that it does not happen again.

 

Just looking at the exhibits that are tendered to the commission, NSW Health was asking the ship if passengers had been to mainland china, Iran, South Korea in the past 14 days. Quite baffling given the ship was operating out of Australia and Australian borders for those countries were closed. Also by the time the ship got back it would have been well and truly past the 14 day mark for people who arrived in Australia a few days before the cruise.

A second health survey was given to passengers about day 5?..and they asked about traveling through California and Washington, and also Singapore and some other places I do not remember.   Australian passengers were also told to use Napier as last foreign port, so only had to isolate for 10 days more..That was an announcement made by officer over loudspeaker..So when getting off at Sydney, many Aussies were confused about 10 or 14 more days to self isolate.  Learned from today's inquiry, that people boarded in New Zealand..wondering if they meant entertainment.

 

Like I said in my other two quotes..even if the NSW health came on board..it was their policy to let all other passengers off before tests results were know.. That is what was done on Mar 8..Wow..that is dumb!

Edited May 6, 2020 by BRANDEE

[The_Big_M]

30 minutes ago, DiamondFour said:

Its funny you say that because trump put on a massive banquet in his honour when he visited the USA.

 

I agree that he should be keeping out of proceedings. If mistakes were made by NSW Health then the truth needs to come out so that it does not happen again.

 

Just looking at the exhibits that are tendered to the commission, NSW Health was asking the ship if passengers had been to mainland china, Iran, South Korea in the past 14 days. Quite baffling given the ship was operating out of Australia and Australian borders for those countries were closed. Also by the time the ship got back it would have been well and truly past the 14 day mark for people who arrived in Australia a few days before the cruise.

 

Aren't they just the standard questions for all arrivals?

 

Also, keep in mind not everyone is onboard for the whole cruise/14 days e.g. crew transfers, entertainers flying in from some other place and joining the ship mid cruise - as well as passenger arrivals/departures mid itinerary.

 

They should ask the question; people are having a go at them for not asking updated questions, so you shouldn't expect them to assume the above.

[Pushka]

2 hours ago, Aus Traveller said:

It also looks like Princess did what was required. There were obviously errors, errors of judgement on behalf of NSW Health not to attend the ship and consult with ill passengers, and an error in not prioritizing the pathology work on the swabs.

So Princess weren’t supposed to exercise judgement in what was causing the illness but Health Dept was?  At that time I think swabs took a day to process?

[rickays]

18 minutes ago, Pushka said:

So Princess weren’t supposed to exercise judgement in what was causing the illness but Health Dept was?  At that time I think swabs took a day to process?

So what judgement do you think Princess should have done, they didnt have the ability to do the covid testing, they took swabs of people with flu like symptoms, they gave them over at 3am, they let NSW Health know via medical log that people were sick that tested negative for flue - this was given to NSW Health 9.39am on the 18th and yet NSW Health still said not important passengers can disembark.  The could have done a priority test on the samples that took a few hours, but they didnt , they put it through the normal process.

[Blackduck59]

6 minutes ago, Pushka said:

So Princess weren’t supposed to exercise judgement in what was causing the illness but Health Dept was?  At that time I think swabs took a day to process?

 

Hey Pushka, I don't want to get into another prolonged back and forth so with the mutual respect we have formed I would like to add my opinion. I have not really been able to listen to or read the transcripts of the proceedings, so I may be off base here. Isn't it the ship's responsibility to report the health status of their passengers? And apparently they did. Now the ball is firmly in the Health Department's court. I would think they have the authority to order the passengers held until the tests were complete. If the health department clears to disembark, are you suggesting that it was Princess' responsibility to unlawfully detain the passengers?

My hope has always been that the multiple investigations find the truth. Not necessarily to assign blame but more to use the errors from Ruby Princess as a lesson to move forward with new and more reflective protocols for the future.

I'm pretty sure that these investigations will end the careers of some people which would probably be appropriate.

[BRANDEE]

15 minutes ago, Blackduck59 said:

 

Hey Pushka, I don't want to get into another prolonged back and forth so with the mutual respect we have formed I would like to add my opinion. I have not really been able to listen to or read the transcripts of the proceedings, so I may be off base here. Isn't it the ship's responsibility to report the health status of their passengers? And apparently they did. Now the ball is firmly in the Health Department's court. I would think they have the authority to order the passengers held until the tests were complete. If the health department clears to disembark, are you suggesting that it was Princess' responsibility to unlawfully detain the passengers?

My hope has always been that the multiple investigations find the truth. Not necessarily to assign blame but more to use the errors from Ruby Princess as a lesson to move forward with new and more reflective protocols for the future.

I'm pretty sure that these investigations will end the careers of some people which would probably be appropriate.

Blackduck59...I have been able to follow the inquiry on the link that Porky 55 put in post #529...only problem I have is the time here in New York  lol  Following since it happened to me..

[Blackduck59]

I'm glad you are able to follow, in that you were directly involved in the events under investigation. I am a bit of an interested bystander. I read your input on this thread with interest because you aren't afraid to call BS when you feel something isn't correct.

[Pushka]

24 minutes ago, Blackduck59 said:

 

Hey Pushka, I don't want to get into another prolonged back and forth so with the mutual respect we have formed I would like to add my opinion. I have not really been able to listen to or read the transcripts of the proceedings, so I may be off base here. Isn't it the ship's responsibility to report the health status of their passengers? And apparently they did. Now the ball is firmly in the Health Department's court. I would think they have the authority to order the passengers held until the tests were complete. If the health department clears to disembark, are you suggesting that it was Princess' responsibility to unlawfully detain the passengers?

My hope has always been that the multiple investigations find the truth. Not necessarily to assign blame but more to use the errors from Ruby Princess as a lesson to move forward with new and more reflective protocols for the future.

I'm pretty sure that these investigations will end the careers of some people which would probably be appropriate.

Of course. I'm up for civilised debate and discussing the relevant points and not judging the player. I'm just throwing other options into the mix as to who is responsible for what part of the decision making process.
 

If everyone plays Fair Witness then the facts are that there was no confirmed case of Covid onboard and therefore there was no need to withhold disembarkation. 

 

It then becomes a judgement call from "someone" as to how to deal with the tests undertaken but not yet analysed. NSW could possibly refer back to the negative Covid tests undertaken in NZ and use that as evidence. 

So my query is whose responsibility is it to await the results of those tests? Captains or Health Department? Did the Captain hand over the ship for disembarkation? I don't know, just askin the question. 

 

[OzKiwiJJ]

As I understand it the Captain does not have the authority at any time to allow passengers to disembark. he has to wait for shoreside clearance.

[Blackduck59]

Pushka, fair enough. in my opinion if the ship is cleared by local authorities, the Captain has to release the passengers. It wouldn't take long for the passengers to get vocal about being held. From what Brandee said, she was confused that they were pretty much rushed off the ship in a rather haphazard fashion. I hope I have that right Brandee.

[lucymorgan]

I did an intense Executive Fellows Program at the Australian and New Zealand School of Government https://www.anzsog.edu.au/  in the 2000s.  It was allied with Harvard Business School - particularly Professor Mark Moore.   Because the program's aims were all about improving leadership, a large part of the program was studying disasters, why things went wrong and how to improve leadership so that disasters were much less likely to happen or were handled more effectively if they did happen. One thing I learnt is that it is almost never just one mistake, just one person, just one process or just one organisation.     😪

Edited May 6, 2020 by lucymorgan

[By The Bay]

Will the federal agencies involved refuse to attend?  This from The Guardian:

 

"In Canberra, federal officials declined to commit to full cooperation with any future summons to appear before the NSW inquiry.

When Walker led the South Australian Murray Darling Basin royal commission, the commonwealth went to the high court to resist subpoenas to call federal public servants.

 

The secretary of the Department of Home Affairs, Michael Pezzullo, said he expected the commonwealth’s position “wouldn’t change from issue to issue” as there were long-standing points of principle and jurisdiction, but he said his view was that “the better course” would be to engage cooperatively."

[BRANDEE]

3 minutes ago, Blackduck59 said:

Pushka, fair enough. in my opinion if the ship is cleared by local authorities, the Captain has to release the passengers. It wouldn't take long for the passengers to get vocal about being held. From what Brandee said, she was confused that they were pretty much rushed off the ship in a rather haphazard fashion. I hope I have that right Brandee.

Not hapharzard as rushed.  Off the ship, through immigration quickly, and the buses waiting right outside the port door grabbing your luggage asking domestic or international.   No checking if you had a transfer ticket of not.  Just a feeling of..boy..they want us out of here. Also, remember all the passengers were also waiting for a delay in disembarking, because we all didn't get on until around 6pm on Mar 8. Everyone I met on the cruise thought the whole ship remained on  for a late disembarkation on Mar..most did not know only the sick to be tested  stayed on.   So, of course, we thought we would be checked when we left. (temperature).  In fact, princess passenger service changed my return flight home at 11:30 pm Mar 18 to a later flight for Thursday morning..Stating my flight was too early and said everyone needed something after 1.pm. 

[Aus Traveller]

23 minutes ago, BRANDEE said:

Not hapharzard as rushed.  Off the ship, through immigration quickly, and the buses waiting right outside the port door grabbing your luggage asking domestic or international.   No checking if you had a transfer ticket of not.  Just a feeling of..boy..they want us out of here. Also, remember all the passengers were also waiting for a delay in disembarking, because we all didn't get on until around 6pm on Mar 8. Everyone I met on the cruise thought the whole ship remained on  for a late disembarkation on Mar..most did not know only the sick to be tested  stayed on.   So, of course, we thought we would be checked when we left. (temperature).  In fact, princess passenger service changed my return flight home at 11:30 pm Mar 18 to a later flight for Thursday morning..Stating my flight was too early and said everyone needed something after 1.pm. 

Princess always advises flights in Sydney to be after midday so stipulating that it has to be after 1pm is not that different. An Aust poster who was on your cruise commented that the disembarkation wasn't different from other times. He said he felt it was no more rushed. An interview I saw a couple of weeks ago with a piano player on the ship said "everyone was off the ship by 11". That would be normal.

 

It is likely Princess was expecting delays for checking by the Health Department. We disembarked from the Sea Princess on the 8th March and had been warned to expect delays for checking. There were no delays and no questions asked. It was the usual - collect your luggage and hand the yellow form into the official, then out the door. We opted for a late disembarkation and I estimate everyone was off the ship by not much after 10 am. That was normal for the Sea Princess in Brisbane.

 

I don't think Princess was asked to keep the sick on board for testing. From every thing I have read, I think everyone disembarked together (except for the two ill people who were taken by ambulance around 2.30am).

[DiamondFour]

2 hours ago, The_Big_M said:

 

Aren't they just the standard questions for all arrivals?

 

Also, keep in mind not everyone is onboard for the whole cruise/14 days e.g. crew transfers, entertainers flying in from some other place and joining the ship mid cruise - as well as passenger arrivals/departures mid itinerary.

 

They should ask the question; people are having a go at them for not asking updated questions, so you shouldn't expect them to assume the above.

You are missing my point. By focusing on those silly questions, NSW Health could have been more direct and specific by asking questions about how many international guests flew in and joined the cruise and what they travel history and background was. By doing that they could establish if they came from a higher risk area and could have brought the virus onto the ship.

[Pushka]

So it sounds like those who had been advised by NSW Health to quarantine / isolate due to fever etc, and which is confirmed that this did happen by Princess Dr as per the email presented as evidence,  simply lined up and left with everyone else? Potentially those same people caught a bus to the airport and travelled back overseas or public transport, domestic flights back interstate. And later were told they were positive?
 

Actually, did we ever find out if those first tests were positive and where those people lived?

[Pushka]

1 minute ago, DiamondFour said:

You are missing my point. By focusing on those silly questions, NSW Health could have been more direct and specific by asking questions about how many international guests flew in and joined the cruise and what they travel history and background was. By doing that they could establish if they came from a higher risk area and could have brought the virus onto the ship.

But some are saying that Princess wouldn't have known the mix of travellers. They certainly didn't advise any of that prior to the cruise. It may likely have changed many passengers plans if they had been told that while it is a NZ cruise, over 1000 passengers were neither Aus or NZ citizens so possibly exposed to Covid prior to arrival. 

[BRANDEE]

delete

Edited May 6, 2020 by BRANDEE

[BRANDEE]

Just now, BRANDEE said:

FYI  Princess knows the exact mix on a ship, all your info down to your age.  In the good old days when Princess was not being pushed as a family cruise line, they actually did not sell tickets to people with certain aged children once a limit was made. You were able to call up your TA and ask how many children and what age  and we are talking 20 kids or less and spread out age wise so no "gangs" of kids would form. You can still call them today and find out if any "groups" booked blocks of rooms and they have to tell you. Some groups are fun to be with..others like  Chumley's Bears..well very interesting.

 

[BRANDEE]

1 minute ago, BRANDEE said:

delete

 

[DiamondFour]

1 hour ago, Pushka said:

But some are saying that Princess wouldn't have known the mix of travellers. They certainly didn't advise any of that prior to the cruise. It may likely have changed many passengers plans if they had been told that while it is a NZ cruise, over 1000 passengers were neither Aus or NZ citizens so possibly exposed to Covid prior to arrival. 

What on earth are you talking about????? I really do not understand that at all.

 

If you look at the commission exhibits there were passengers from America. The information available to NSW Health at that time is that most of our cases appeared to be coming in from infected Americans. If NSW Health had been more specific and investigated more relevant issues it may have been able to stop the spread of this virus and notify the ship which appears to have been oblivious to where the cases of this virus existed.

[gbenjo]

1 hour ago, Pushka said:

But some are saying that Princess wouldn't have known the mix of travellers. They certainly didn't advise any of that prior to the cruise. It may likely have changed many passengers plans if they had been told that while it is a NZ cruise, over 1000 passengers were neither Aus or NZ citizens so possibly exposed to Covid prior to arrival. 

Yes Princess would have known what the “ mix”  of pax was on the cruise but any “screening” would be done when they first checked in at the terminal  before the cruise and anyone that had travelled from or through any country under question would have been denied boarding , unless of course they lied to the check in agent, unfortunately something that  is out of the cruise lines control. It was a fluid situation that changed almost daily as to who could or could not cruise.

[Aus Traveller]

1 hour ago, Pushka said:

So it sounds like those who had been advised by NSW Health to quarantine / isolate due to fever etc, and which is confirmed that this did happen by Princess Dr as per the email presented as evidence,  simply lined up and left with everyone else? Potentially those same people caught a bus to the airport and travelled back overseas or public transport, domestic flights back interstate. And later were told they were positive?
 

Actually, did we ever find out if those first tests were positive and where those people lived?

Exactly. If NSW Health didn't want to hold all the passengers, surely they should at least have held those who were ill until tests were completed. After all, the ship wasn't going anywhere.

 

I seem to recall that out of the original tests, several were positive to COVID and of course, the two people hospitalized were also positive.

[Pushka]

2 hours ago, DiamondFour said:

What on earth are you talking about????? I really do not understand that at all.

 

If you look at the commission exhibits there were passengers from America. The information available to NSW Health at that time is that most of our cases appeared to be coming in from infected Americans. If NSW Health had been more specific and investigated more relevant issues it may have been able to stop the spread of this virus and notify the ship which appears to have been oblivious to where the cases of this virus existed.

Let me help you. Passengers who contacted Princess before the cruise were told it was a Low risk cruise as it was an Australian NZ itinerary and Covid was not currently prevalent in either. So as to reassure them they were safe from risk. What Princess did not say was that 1000 passengers were not Aussie/NZers but from overseas countries and which of course, raised the risk level substantially. Then someone here mentioned that Princess would not know the passenger mix prior to the cruise. Which of course, as you point out, we know wasn't true. 
 

When Princess were contacted prior to the cruise about safety risks, why did they not mention that 1/3 of the passengers weren't from Aus/NZ? We know why, don't we. 
 

And Diamond showed everyone weeks before that pre screening is totally useless. 

Edited May 6, 2020 by Pushka