MSC Cruises going bankrupt?

[Kevin79]

1 minute ago, Hlitner said:

There are some very interesting dynamics relating to influenza.  It is actually 4 main flu strains with some variations for each.  Each strain requires a different vaccine and it is not currently possible to use a single flu shot to protect against all the known strains.  Hence, the International authorities make an annual educated guess (on which strains) and are often wrong :(.  To make matters worse, fewer then 50% of souls in industrialized countries even bother to get a flu shot.  We (society) have simply chosen to live with that risk which can be a real problem on cruise ships (along with Noro virus).  We have been on several cruises with flu outbreaks and it is not a pretty thing.  

 

But COVID-19 has literally changed everything.  

Yes, there is a northern and southern version of the virus produced each year based on a best educated guess of which 3 or 4 strains are most likely to be about that season. The decision has to be made more than 6 months before hand. Of course, if they get it wrong, it may still help, albeit on at a lower level.

 

With flu, the general population doesn't really need to be vaccinated (though this year, the more who do the better it is for health services to cope with 2nd wave) as most are able to treat easily at home and if hospitalised, good effective treatments. The vaccine is aimed at those at risk.

 

I think Covid has changed everything because there is no vaccine, concerns over how long invective virus survives on surfaces, no or very limited hospital treatment protocol. We'll just have to see how the next 3-6 months go with the various vaccine trials and testing existing drugs rather than relying on inventing new ones.

[KennyFla]

8 minutes ago, Kevin79 said:

It certainly should be up to national health organisations. Covid is not SARS or MERS - they went away after limited issue. We have affective treatment for flu and annual vaccinations. There are relatively OK treatments for novel flu pandemics such as tamiflu which was utilised in 2009, while they produce a new vaccine.

 

The problem with Covid is there isn't an effective treatment or vaccine base. It's not just your health but they health of everyone that needs to be considered. Covid is also NOT the flu.

 

From the WHO website:

"Pandemic influenza outbreaks are unpredictable. One million people around the world died in a 1957 outbreak that started in China but spread globally. In 1968, another outbreak took an estimated 1-3 million lives. In 2003, the re-emergence of A(H5N1) or so-called avian influenza, highlighted how the virus could pass from animals to people, but it did not reach the pandemic stage because it could not pass sustainably from person to person.

The 2009 “Swine flu” A(H1N1) pandemic started in Mexico where it caused severe illness in previously healthy adults and spread rapidly to over 214 countries and overseas territories or communities. Between 105 000 and 395 000 people are thought to have died. Even so, the world was relatively lucky: it turned out to be milder than some seasonal epidemics, which can kill twice that number."

 

My point is that we never shut down the world over these pandemics before, some much worse, we live with them.  Why the big change with COVID -19?

 

Also, no one is forcing you on the boat.  If you don't feel comfortable, don't go.  I would go, using common sense precautions.

 

[Kevin79]

1 minute ago, KennyFla said:

My point is that we never shut down the world over these pandemics before, some much worse, we live with them.  Why the big change with COVID -19?

Its novel, it's new. We've not had to treat this type of virus on this scale. We don't have effective treatments and protocols for this or vaccine bases. Vaccines were in final stages of development for SARS and MERS (related viruses) which are being used as a starting point to speed things up. We have over 500,000 people deal globally due to Covid, and that's with all the various national lockdowns, stopping flights, cruise industry. Just imagine that number is we just carried on as normal.

 

1 minute ago, KennyFla said:

Also, no one is forcing you on the boat.  If you don't feel comfortable, don't go.  I would go, using common sense precautions.

True. But you are then "forced" back into society. What about the people you come into contact with in shops, on public transport, in your work office, or even your family you're going to come into contact with after the cruise? You may be asymptomatic and pass it on to someone else. There are wider implications to just you accepting the risk of going on a cruise.

[Hlitner]

5 minutes ago, KennyFla said:

 

From the WHO website:

"Pandemic influenza outbreaks are unpredictable. One million people around the world died in a 1957 outbreak that started in China but spread globally. In 1968, another outbreak took an estimated 1-3 million lives. In 2003, the re-emergence of A(H5N1) or so-called avian influenza, highlighted how the virus could pass from animals to people, but it did not reach the pandemic stage because it could not pass sustainably from person to person.

The 2009 “Swine flu” A(H1N1) pandemic started in Mexico where it caused severe illness in previously healthy adults and spread rapidly to over 214 countries and overseas territories or communities. Between 105 000 and 395 000 people are thought to have died. Even so, the world was relatively lucky: it turned out to be milder than some seasonal epidemics, which can kill twice that number."

 

My point is that we never shut down the world over these pandemics before, some much worse, we live with them.  Why the big change with COVID -19?

 

Also, no one is forcing you on the boat.  If you don't feel comfortable, don't go.  I would go, using common sense precautions.

 

What you say is true.  But times do change and we generally change with the times.  Perhaps historians will say that COVID-19 was the game changer that broke the camel's back when it comes to International travel.  It has long bothered me that we all took such a blasé attitude to the flu and its vaccination.  As one who spent most of his life in the healthcare industry I was well aware of the huge price paid because of our permissive attitude towards the flu.  Sure, the mortality rate was relatively low in the USA (not so in some other parts of the world) but we still had 30,000 - 80,000 deaths a year with many other deaths missed by the antiquated reporting system.  We also had millions of work/school days missed (at great cost) due to the flu.  Other folks ended up with various morbidities traced to the flu.  And yet, we took a blasé attitude to the vaccines and simply smiled at those who insisted that the vaccine gave them the flu (this is actually impossible).

 

So why the big change with COVID?  I guess over 145,000 deaths (so far) here in the USA have caused us more then a little concern.   And COVID-19 will eventually kill more then 1 million souls with many more forced to live with various morbidities that may last the rest of their lives.  These morbidities (such as cardio vascular damage, kidney damage, etc) will have a huge ongoing cost for healthcare systems around the world.  

 

Should we have shut down the world because of COVID-19?  Historians and healthcare experts will debate this forever while politicians continue to look at polls and take whatever position gets them the most votes/support.  Some things never change.

 

Hank

[KennyFla]

12 minutes ago, Kevin79 said:

 

 

True. But you are then "forced" back into society. What about the people you come into contact with in shops, on public transport, in your work office, or even your family you're going to come into contact with after the cruise? You may be asymptomatic and pass it on to someone else. There are wider implications to just you accepting the risk of going on a cruise.

 

That's happening now.  Nobody is cruising.  Did we do anything with the lockdowns?  There are estimates that the infection rate is much, much higher but since we started testing people that were sick first there were many more out in society not accounted for.

[KennyFla]

10 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

What you say is true.  But times do change and we generally change with the times.  Perhaps historians will say that COVID-19 was the game changer that broke the camel's back when it comes to International travel.  It has long bothered me that we all took such a blasé attitude to the flu and its vaccination.  As one who spent most of his life in the healthcare industry I was well aware of the huge price paid because of our permissive attitude towards the flu.  Sure, the mortality rate was relatively low in the USA (not so in some other parts of the world) but we still had 30,000 - 80,000 deaths a year with many other deaths missed by the antiquated reporting system.  We also had millions of work/school days missed (at great cost) due to the flu.  Other folks ended up with various morbidities traced to the flu.  And yet, we took a blasé attitude to the vaccines and simply smiled at those who insisted that the vaccine gave them the flu (this is actually impossible).

 

So why the big change with COVID?  I guess over 145,000 deaths (so far) here in the USA have caused us more then a little concern.   And COVID-19 will eventually kill more then 1 million souls with many more forced to live with various morbidities that may last the rest of their lives.  These morbidities (such as cardio vascular damage, kidney damage, etc) will have a huge ongoing cost for healthcare systems around the world.  

 

Should we have shut down the world because of COVID-19?  Historians and healthcare experts will debate this forever while politicians continue to look at polls and take whatever position gets them the most votes/support.  Some things never change.

 

Hank

 

Yes.  Do we shut down and wait for a vaccine?  And i'm not trying to be a smart***, these are tough decisions that must be made.

Edited July 23, 2020 by KennyFla

[Beardface]

On 7/23/2020 at 9:56 AM, Hlitner said:

There are some very interesting dynamics relating to influenza.  It is actually 4 main flu strains with some variations for each.  Each strain requires a different vaccine and it is not currently possible to use a single flu shot to protect against all the known strains.  Hence, the International authorities make an annual educated guess (on which strains) and are often wrong :(.  To make matters worse, fewer then 50% of souls in industrialized countries even bother to get a flu shot.  We (society) have simply chosen to live with that risk which can be a real problem on cruise ships (along with Noro virus).  We have been on several cruises with flu outbreaks and it is not a pretty thing.  

 

But COVID-19 has literally changed everything.  It has forced passengers, government agencies, port authorities, and others to finally face up to the reality of cruise ships.  They are floating petri dishes which not only put those aboard at risk but also help spread various bugs to shore.  I suspect that cruise ports will no longer look the other way when ships have flu, Noro and other bugs.  It is possible that many ports around the world will never, again, be so welcoming to cruise ships.  After the Diamond Princess fiasco there is little impetus for the Japanese authorities to open up their country to future cruises.  It is a minor part of their huge tourist industry but the Diamond Princess showed how the risk-benefit is out of synch.

 

It is hard to imagine a positive scenario for the future of cruising.  I can see a future in which there will be more health checks, proof of vaccinations will become a norm for some travel (including cruises), and there will be fewer ports welcoming ships.   Those who count themselves in the "anti vaccination" crowd will discover that their belief comes with numerous travel (and possibly school) restrictions.  In simple terms, if you want to travel internationally you will likely need to carry some kind of official "shot record" like we used to have in the ole days.  I still have my yellow vaccination booklet (from the 60s) full of stamps representing the many shots/vaccinations that existed at that time.  DW and I still have valid Yellow Fever vaccination certificates.  

 

The cruise lines are all being sued (multiple lawsuits) for their action/inaction vis-a-vis COVID-19.  There will likely be some huge future suits by crew members who have found themselves imprisoned (for months) on various ships.  The cruise lines will be forced (kicking and screaming) into a world where they will have to say, "no flu shot....no cruise!"   "No Covid-19 shot...no cruise."   "No MMR shot....no cruise."  etc etc.

 

Hank

As soon as I read "cruise ships are floating petri dishes" I immediately stop reading as I know the statement is coming from someone who is far from impartial.

 

The cruise industry is being scapegoated here.  If cruises didn't exist, would COVID have happened?  Absolutely.  It still would have spread just as far, just as fast.  Why?  Because the real cause of this, international airline travel, never shut down until it was too late, and even when it did shut down, it was far too leaky to be effective

 

The industry is definitely not perfect but my God this obsession with calling it outright dangerous is pointed propaganda at it's most desperate.  I was on the Seaside the first week of March this year.  It wasn't until I was in the crowded Miami airport listening to every cough on each other when I realized things might not be safe.  And the airlines are still getting it absolutely wrong with the way they are attempting to handle social distancing, so until that gets cleaned up, I don't want to hear a damn peep about the cruise industry, who is absolutely getting the brunt end of the scapegoating stick right now.

 

[Hlitner]

58 minutes ago, Beardface said:

As soon as I read "cruise ships are floating petri dishes" I immediately stop reading as I know the statement is coming from someone who is far from impartial.

 

The cruise industry is being scapegoated here.  If cruises didn't exist, would COVID have happened?  Absolutely.  It still would have spread just as far, just as fast.  Why?  Because the real cause of this, international airline travel, never shut down until it was too late, and even when it did shut down, it was far too leaky to be effective

 

The industry is definitely not perfect but my God this obsession with calling it outright dangerous is pointed propaganda at it's most desperate.  I was on the Seaside the first week of March this year.  It wasn't until I was in the crowded Miami airport listening to every cough on each other when I realized things might not be safe.  And the airlines are still getting it absolutely wrong with the way they are attempting to handle social distancing, so until that gets cleaned up, I don't want to hear a damn peep about the cruise industry, who is absolutely getting the brunt end of the scapegoating stick right now.

 

I understand it is the new normal to simply tune out what folks do not want to hear.  The "floating petri dish" is actually a pretty accurate comment used by more then one scientist.  That is not so much a negative comment but simply a fact that has long forced cruise ships to take extraordinary precautions to prevent health problems.  It is also why the various inspection such as by the CDC (which enforces their Vessel Sanitation Program (VSP)) and its EU counterpart focuses  on health related issues.   Many long time cruisers have had their share of issues with Norovirus and various Upper Respiratory Infections (URIs).   Bottom line is that ships pack a lot of people into a confined space which enhances the petri dish effect.   There are some land-based places (such as nursing homes) that must deal with similar issues.

 

As to calling ships outright dangerous (not my words) we have never felt endangered on a ship (we have spent more then 1200 days as passengers on ships).   But given the nature of COVID-19, the unfortunate fact is that ships are likely the near perfect environment to spread COVID-19 and this has been borne out by recent outbreaks.   If good health depends on social distancing then that is going to be a big problem on the large mass market ships.  The smaller luxury vessels are certainly better suited to social distancing as are some of the ship within a ship facilities (such as MSC's Yacht Club or NCL's Haven Suites).  We have an upcoming MSC Yacht Club booking and feel we can social distance within the YC.   But once a passenger chooses to exit that enclave the passenger is subject to the same close contact issues as anyone else on the vessel.

 

The BBC actually had an interesting piece on the "floating petri dish" issue:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-51470603

 

Also keep in mind that there were COVID-19 outbreaks on 123 cruise ships and the CDC says that 80% of ships were impacted by COVID although that number does not make a lot of sense to me.

 

 

Hank

[KennyFla]

You can still fly.  You can ride mass transportation.  You can go to casino's and restaurants.  You can protest.

 

You just can't cruise.  The cruise industry is absolutely being singled out.  It should be up to people if they feel safe to cruise.

[Hlitner]

On 7/27/2020 at 12:55 PM, KennyFla said:

You can still fly.  You can ride mass transportation.  You can go to casino's and restaurants.  You can protest.

 

You just can't cruise.  The cruise industry is absolutely being singled out.  It should be up to people if they feel safe to cruise.

If only that were true.  Lets start by considering the ports.  Even if passengers feel safe there is no reason to think that any port will welcome a ship until there is a written protocol on how they will handle even a single COVID-19 case onboard (passenger/cruise).

 

We just came back from a driving vacation to South Carolina.  We had control of our environment.  If a restaurant did not look like they were following acceptable protocols we could simply go to another restaurant.  When on the beach we were easily able to keep more than 10 feet social distance from other folks.  In our Condo building we also were able to social distance and respect the rule of no more then 1 person (or family) per elevator.  If one of us had gotten sick we had our choice of numerous hospitals and did not have to be concerned about being quarantines at sea for days/weeks or even months.   When we went to the beach (every day for two weeks) we had miles of beach from which to choose our somewhat isolated location.  Try doing that on the deck of any mass market cruise ship.  Even our Condo had their pools (indoor and outdoor) closed for the summer.  Not an issue for us since we love to swim in the Ocean (where it is very easy to social distance). 

 

So yes, the cruise industry is being singled out but perhaps that is quite reasonable.  And keep in mind that I have been an avid cruise for over forty years (cruise more then 100 days in many years) and am a huge cruise fan.  But the reality is that a ship (especially a large mass market ship) is among the worst environment (along with nursing homes) in this COVID-19 world.

 

Hank

[KennyFla]

I disagree with you other than what you said about needing hospitalization.  That is harder to get to on a cruise ship.  What happened before if someone needed emergency treatment?

 

May be as simple as requiring people to buy an amped up insurance so that they can be sent home if they get ill.

Edited July 29, 2020 by KennyFla

[DCGuy64]

On 7/27/2020 at 12:55 PM, KennyFla said:

You can still fly.  You can ride mass transportation.  You can go to casino's and restaurants.  You can protest.

 

You just can't cruise.  The cruise industry is absolutely being singled out.  It should be up to people if they feel safe to cruise.

Agree 100%. The data simply don't back up the idea of cruise ships being mega-spreaders of the virus. I will search around and find the stats but there is good data out there to support what you've just said. (side note: I've noticed a number of Debbie Downers on this site who seem to revel in bashing the cruise industry and enjoy making gloomy predictions about the death of the industry. Given that this is a site for CRUISING enthusiasts, I have to ask: why are they even here?)

[sidari]

Not just about cruising though, it is about the number of land based cases and deaths especially in Florida. There is no way that people will be allowed into these areas just because they want to cruise.

There is a need to get the numbers down to manageable figures before crying will begin again in the US.

[DCGuy64]

11 minutes ago, sidari said:

Not just about cruising though, it is about the number of land based cases and deaths especially in Florida. There is no way that people will be allowed into these areas just because they want to cruise.

There is a need to get the numbers down to manageable figures before crying will begin again in the US.

Crying will begin again? I think you meant cruising. And I believe we're discussing cruising in general, not just US.

[sidari]

Cruising and Crying ... 🤣

[BermudaBound2014]

1 hour ago, DCGuy64 said:

 I've noticed a number of Debbie Downers on this site who seem to revel in bashing the cruise industry and enjoy making gloomy predictions about the death of the industry. Given that this is a site for CRUISING enthusiasts, I have to ask: why are they even here?)

 

This seems like an extremely Juvenile response to people who hold a different opinion than you. I can only speak for myself, but this "debby downer' has been a cruising ENTHUSIAST for over 30 years. Following the industry and it's changes is a hobby I truly enjoy. Loving cruising has nothing to do with being realistic about where the industry sits at the moment. 

 

1) I haven't read a single post where anyone has made a prediction regarding the 'death of the industry'. Such a dramatic statement. I do not believe the industry will look the same, but I don't believe it will die (nor have I ever implied that). I come to this conclusion from first hand experience. The cruise line parent company of the first 5 cruises I sailed went bankrupt (Regency, Dolphin, and Commodore) taking gobs of consumer money in the process. It has happened before, and it will happen again. Realism.

 

2) You keep referencing that the USA isn't the only player; but unfortunately, the USA is the biggest player and until the USA gets its act together, buyer beware for the consumer is in order. More realism. NCL just extended it's own 'no sail' order through November 1st. The head of the cruise commission of the CDC has a clear disdain for cruises. Her bias is well documented. I am thrilled TUI and Genting have started sailing, but the industry needs North America before it resembles anything of the past. Unfortunately, I think that public perception is going to hurt the industry as much as the covid close. It is going to take serious marketing to change the perception of cruises as 'floating petri dishes". Obviously I don't agree with this analogy but I believe it represents the vast majority of opinion.  Realism.

http://www.f-cca.com/downloads/2018-Cruise-Industry-Overview-and-Statistics.pdf

 

 

 

So to answer your question about why such "Debby Downers"  remains active on CC, it is because we, too, love the industry. Just like you. We are also enthusiasts. Just like you. We differ in when we think cruising will resume. Realism.

 

 

 

 

 

[rkacruiser]

5 hours ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

So to answer your question about why such "Debby Downers"  remains active on CC, it is because we, too, love the industry. Just like you. We are also enthusiasts. Just like you. We differ in when we think cruising will resume. Realism.

 

I don't consider myself as a "Debby Downer" and I hope those who read my posts don't believe that I am.  Doesn't my cruise history in my signature indicate an enthusiast?  I have investments in RCI and CCL that are "well above the limit required for an on-board shareholder credit".  I am "invested" in the cruise industry literally as well as figuratively.  

 

As BermudaBound2014 stated:  Realism.  It's realism that is needed throughout our 50 States that this virus is not going to be "wished away".  Or, that magically, on November 4th, there will be no pandemic.  On December 7, 1941, realism set in with regard to the war in Europe and the threat in Asia.  Those who were opposed to involvement in "foreign affairs" were smacked in the face with realism.  That "new sense" of realism helped the Allies to win WW II.  "We, the People of these United States..." need that same sense of realism if this war against Covid-19 is going to be won.  

 

 

[DCGuy64]

16 hours ago, rkacruiser said:

 

I don't consider myself as a "Debby Downer" and I hope those who read my posts don't believe that I am.  Doesn't my cruise history in my signature indicate an enthusiast?  I have investments in RCI and CCL that are "well above the limit required for an on-board shareholder credit".  I am "invested" in the cruise industry literally as well as figuratively.  

 

As BermudaBound2014 stated:  Realism.  It's realism that is needed throughout our 50 States that this virus is not going to be "wished away".  Or, that magically, on November 4th, there will be no pandemic.  On December 7, 1941, realism set in with regard to the war in Europe and the threat in Asia.  Those who were opposed to involvement in "foreign affairs" were smacked in the face with realism.  That "new sense" of realism helped the Allies to win WW II.  "We, the People of these United States..." need that same sense of realism if this war against Covid-19 is going to be won.  

 

 

First off, thanks for your post. I'm sure you're familiar with the phrase used in courtrooms to swear in witnesses: "do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth"?

It's not about "realism," especially when dealing with the future. Realism would dictate acknowledging what's going on right now, but not pretending to know the future. It's not realism to say "cruising is done for good," or "I'm canceling all my cruises because the industry won't even be here next year" or "there will be no more cruising for 2020." That simply CANNOT be known. So no, it's not realism, it's speculation and hearsay, and it's negative at that. But it's also incomplete. It may be true that COVID-19 has caused a lot of deaths, that's realistic. But it's also realistic that the vast majority of people have recovered, and those who focus only on the bad parts aren't telling the whole truth. I had to stop watching coronavirus coverage on the major US networks not because they were lying or spreading false information, but because they only told part of the story. I switched to BBC News because they covered ALL of the story, not just the scary, tantalizing stuff that generates ad revenue like "another grim milestone was reached today" but things like "99% of people recover" or "promising results from the latest drug trials" or "Italy seems to be winning the fight against COVID-19." It's DISHONEST for the news media only to cover the negative, depressing parts of a news story and not balance it with positive news (of which there is always plenty).

The reason I mentioned Debby Downers on this site is because (and maybe you and I haven't been reading the same threads) when I have posted that I'm going on a cruise in January, some snarky person posts a comment like "you aren't going on that cruise" or "that cruise line will be bankrupt by then." HOW IS THAT HELPFUL? It's not. I cannot stop people from posting negativity online, but I CAN and WILL call them out on it. I'd also note this: back in April or May, I read lots of predictions about cruising not restarting this year, IF EVER. Well that was untrue, but folks like me were blasted for disagreeing. Lo and behold, Hurtigruten has resumed passenger cruises, so has AIDA and now so has TUI, and it's not even August. Was it unrealistic to say cruising would resume by summer? Obviously not. Finally, as an investor, you are no doubt aware of Warren Buffett's dictum to "be fearful when others are greedy, and greedy when others are fearful." So many people are fearful right now, but we just booked our 3rd cruise for 2021.

Edited July 30, 2020 by DCGuy64
Additional information

[BermudaBound2014]

3 hours ago, DCGuy64 said:

I had to stop watching coronavirus coverage on the major US networks not because they were lying or spreading false information, but because they only told part of the story. I switched to BBC News because they covered ALL of the story, not just the scary, tantalizing stuff that generates ad revenue like "another grim milestone was reached today" but things like "99% of people recover" or "promising results from the latest drug trials" or "Italy seems to be winning the fight against COVID-19." It's DISHONEST for the news media only to cover the negative, depressing parts of a news story and not balance it with positive news (of which there is always plenty).

 

I actually agree with the above. It's BBC only in my house too.

 

3 hours ago, DCGuy64 said:

It's not about "realism," especially when dealing with the future. Realism would dictate acknowledging what's going on right now, but not pretending to know the future. It's not realism to say "cruising is done for good," or "I'm canceling all my cruises because the industry won't even be here next year" or "there will be no more cruising for 2020." That simply CANNOT be known. So no, it's not realism, it's speculation and hearsay, and it's negative at that. 

 

 

I would agree that it is impossible to state accurately that there "will be no more cruising for 2020". But being Realistic is looking at all the factors and drawing conclusions. Some people like to live in the land of fairy tale and unicorn dust. It takes all types to make the world go round. However; you crossed the line of kindness when you chose to specifically name call people who are looking at the industry with less of a rose colored filter as "debby downers" and  then you even went so far as to question why such "debby downers" remain on this site.  I believe this to be a very juvenile way to respond to people with differing opinions. The world needs more kindness.

 

On 7/29/2020 at 8:58 AM, DCGuy64 said:

Agree 100%. The data simply don't back up the idea of cruise ships being mega-spreaders of the virus. I will search around and find the stats but there is good data out there to support what you've just said. (side note: I've noticed a number of Debbie Downers on this site who seem to revel in bashing the cruise industry and enjoy making gloomy predictions about the death of the industry. Given that this is a site for CRUISING enthusiasts, I have to ask: why are they even here?)

 

And for the record, the most gloomy predictions about the industry are coming from the industry itself. You can certainly choose to ignore this data as it fits your narrative, but I chose to look at things with a more "realistic" filter. 

 

 

Edited July 30, 2020 by BermudaBound2014