MSC Cruises going bankrupt?

[neptuno]

Refunds are still slow to non-existant.  Please let us know if you have received yours?

[sfaaa]

I was one of the MSC believers but with the just announced massive cancellations of 2020 and 2021 cruises in N America, I am starting to have doubt about the whole MSC situation. The is quite alarming.

Edited June 4, 2020 by sfaaa

[chisoxfan]

As posted I filed a dispute with my CC co. Holland America confirmed credits and they were applied within two weeks. Still no final confirmation from MSC.  Looks as if they will stretch this out as long as they can.

[lovemycruisetoo]

I filed a dispute 5/5 for two deposits after 30 days. Received one 5/5 and the second 6/1 because it was from 2019. As of today, I have 4 more canceled with MSC (3 on their part) but will give them the 60 days before I file any more disputes. Hope they do what what’s right. So disappointed now so looking into some other cruise line.  It was nice while it lasted, one YC cruise. 

[BermudaBound2014]

I'm sorry, I can not follow these dates. Please clarify. How did you receive your money on the same day as you filed your dispute? And how was money owed from 2019 yet you filed on 5/5 (30 days from sailing)? There is probably a likely explanation I'm just not understanding.

 

[Até]

It makes sense to me, possibly because I have several ongoing disputes myself.  I read that they cancelled two deposits in early April, waited 30 days and disputed, the provisional credits were applied - one on the same day and another on June1st because the initial payment date of 2019 can have an effect on how the dispute is processed.  They later had three more cancelled by MSC and one more by themselves that they are waiting 60 days before disputing.  Interesting to me because I also have one non-disputed deposit cancellation that I just didn't want to go through the hassle of adding to my other disputes.  MSC, and Visa, are wearing me down.

[lovemycruisetoo]

Exactly Ate, you explained it perfectly. Thanks. 

[sunshine100]

We were to sail on MSC Musica on May 4 from Brindisi, Italy, a 7 day cruise.  It was cancelled March 30 and I submitted the online form.  We received a 400 deposit and another 910 for the balance of the cruise this week and this was credited on 2 different charge cards. We are still owed another 120 for an excursion through MSC, but we were told it would come separate.  We booked direct with MSC USA.  

Still waiting for a flight refund from Air Alitalia....maybe someday!   We also received a full refund on flights and another cruise(transatlantic) from celebrity, during this same trip.  We were to be gone almost a month.  Maybe next year or when a vaccine comes out for this virus!

[BermudaBound2014]

12 hours ago, Até said:

It makes sense to me, possibly because I have several ongoing disputes myself.  I read that they cancelled two deposits in early April, waited 30 days and disputed, the provisional credits were applied - one on the same day and another on June1st because the initial payment date of 2019 can have an effect on how the dispute is processed. 

 

So Luvmycruisetoo hasn't actually received any money just the standard temporary credit that Credit Cards offer immediately after a dispute is filed. I disputed on May 21st and had my 'provisional credit' awarded the next day also, but that provisional credit does not mean that the claim was processed. American Express stated it could be until July 19th before my credit is finalized.

[Até]

I cannot say when lovemycruisetoo's provisional credit becomes permanent.  That seems very dependent on the type of credit card and the issuing agent.  My experience is with Visa and my local bank, and it's not been good.  I'm not allowed to talk directly with VISA and my bank is full of idiots.  Apparently the banks and VISA are all trying to wait this out and not forcing  the merchant (MSC) to abide by the VISA terms that were set out.  VISA even released a COVID statement that they would not allow merchants any extended time to respond to disputes, yet in reality they are.  My disputes haven't been officially resolved yet I started them almost two months ago.  VISA officially says the merchant has 20 days to respond.  All I get from my bank is delay tactics.

[lovemycruisetoo]

• JUN01PURCHASE ADJUSTMENTMerchandise    -$600.00

   

• This is how it showed up on my credit card with Capitol One Quicksilver.  No mention of when or if the claim was processed but I feel better its at least showing up along with the 198.00 purchase adjustment. I will post when case is considered closed.

[BermudaBound2014]

I felt better when mine showed up too! The fine print on American Express says it will be resolved no later than July 19 but they hope sooner. That disclaimer is in the dispute section. There was no indication that it was still being disputed when the money showed up in my accoount.

[Kevin79]

On 5/6/2020 at 10:53 PM, BermudaBound2014 said:

 

 But as I mentioned, no one REALLY knows MSC financials because they self report. 

 

I assume you mean self-report as they are not a listed on a stock exchange? MSC's accounts are still independently audited, in this instance by KPMG. Their parent company will also be audited.

[Hlitner]

On 7/20/2020 at 4:58 PM, Kevin79 said:

 

I assume you mean self-report as they are not a listed on a stock exchange? MSC's accounts are still independently audited, in this instance by KPMG. Their parent company will also be audited.

Enron was also audited ::).   But seriously, most large family owned companies routinely have independent annual audits.  But they are generally under no obligation to make "all" the results public.  I have no clue as to the future of MSC but suspect that the family is carefully considering their risk (vis a vis the cruise line) versus the other family interests (i.e. Container Ships).  If I were running the family I would want to keep the Container Ship business completely independent from the cruise business to such an extent that shutting down the cruise side (i.e. possible bankruptcy) would not adversely impact the other holdings.

 

Even the wealthiest families have limited resources (unless their name is Jeff Bezos).  MSC must be bleeding cash at a horrible rate (we are talking hundreds of millions per month) and at some point will need to limit their losses or face the grim reaper.   The key to the cruise business is how fast profitable operations can resume...and that is a question for which nobody has an answer.

 

Hank

[KennyFla]

23 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

Enron was also audited ::).   But seriously, most large family owned companies routinely have independent annual audits.  But they are generally under no obligation to make "all" the results public.  I have no clue as to the future of MSC but suspect that the family is carefully considering their risk (vis a vis the cruise line) versus the other family interests (i.e. Container Ships).  If I were running the family I would want to keep the Container Ship business completely independent from the cruise business to such an extent that shutting down the cruise side (i.e. possible bankruptcy) would not adversely impact the other holdings.

 

Even the wealthiest families have limited resources (unless their name is Jeff Bezos).  MSC must be bleeding cash at a horrible rate (we are talking hundreds of millions per month) and at some point will need to limit their losses or face the grim reaper.   The key to the cruise business is how fast profitable operations can resume...and that is a question for which nobody has an answer.

 

Hank

 

Or, as some companies get out of the business there is great opportunity in the future for a company with other sources of income to ride it out.  At some point this virus will go away.

[chisoxfan]

50 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

Enron was also audited ::).   But seriously, most large family owned companies routinely have independent annual audits.  But they are generally under no obligation to make "all" the results public.  I have no clue as to the future of MSC but suspect that the family is carefully considering their risk (vis a vis the cruise line) versus the other family interests (i.e. Container Ships).  If I were running the family I would want to keep the Container Ship business completely independent from the cruise business to such an extent that shutting down the cruise side (i.e. possible bankruptcy) would not adversely impact the other holdings.

 

Even the wealthiest families have limited resources (unless their name is Jeff Bezos).  MSC must be bleeding cash at a horrible rate (we are talking hundreds of millions per month) and at some point will need to limit their losses or face the grim reaper.   The key to the cruise business is how fast profitable operations can resume...and that is a question for which nobody has an answer.

 

Hank

If only they could audit the Fed............

[Hlitner]

7 hours ago, KennyFla said:

 

Or, as some companies get out of the business there is great opportunity in the future for a company with other sources of income to ride it out.  At some point this virus will go away.

Perhaps and I sure hope you are right.  On the other hand, Smallpox (another virus) was around for thousands of years.  And even with vaccines we continue to be hit by various flu viruses year after year.  

 

Hank

[Kevin79]

8 hours ago, Hlitner said:

On the other hand, Smallpox (another virus) was around for thousands of years.  And even with vaccines we continue to be hit by various flu viruses year after year. 

Smallpox was around for 1000s of years, then we got the technology to develop vaccines and it went. The prevalent flu virus in northern/southern hemisphere changes each year so we have a new vaccine. We are also able to stop the spread of flu with a lot of basic hygiene such as hand washing etc. Not everyone has a flu jab; it's aimed at those most at risk i.e. underlying health conditions, very young and old. THe industry also continued to sail with the flu being about.

[cublet]

On 7/20/2020 at 9:58 PM, Kevin79 said:

 

I assume you mean self-report as they are not a listed on a stock exchange? MSC's accounts are still independently audited, in this instance by KPMG. Their parent company will also be audited.

Hello,

 

Which MSC is audited by KPMG? According to the accounts at Companies House, MSC Cruises Limited's auditors are White Hart Associates (London) Ltd.

 

Regards,

 

Cublet

[Kevin79]

2 minutes ago, cublet said:

Which MSC is audited by KPMG? According to the accounts at Companies House, MSC Cruises Limited's auditors are White Hart Associates (London) Ltd.

MSC Cruises Group, the parent of the UK arm, MSC Cruise Limited.

[cublet]

12 minutes ago, Kevin79 said:

MSC Cruises Group, the parent of the UK arm, MSC Cruise Limited.

Hello,

 

I don't want to do this to death, but I cannot see such a company listed as 'MSC Cruises Group'.

 

The parent company of MSC Cruises Ltd is listed as MSC in Switzerland.

 

Perhaps a company registration number would clarify this?

 

Regards,

 

Cublet

[Kevin79]

6 minutes ago, cublet said:

The parent company of MSC Cruises Ltd is listed as MSC in Switzerland.

 

Yes it is. The official name is MSC Cruises SA, Geneva.

Feel free to read the report; it was linked at the start of the tread, but below for ease.

https://www.msccruises.com/en-gl/Assets/MSC%20Cruises%20Annual%20report%202019.pdf

[KennyFla]

3 hours ago, Kevin79 said:

Smallpox was around for 1000s of years, then we got the technology to develop vaccines and it went. The prevalent flu virus in northern/southern hemisphere changes each year so we have a new vaccine. We are also able to stop the spread of flu with a lot of basic hygiene such as hand washing etc. Not everyone has a flu jab; it's aimed at those most at risk i.e. underlying health conditions, very young and old. THe industry also continued to sail with the flu being about.

 

And H1N1, and Mears, and Sars, etc.........

I really don't think it should be up to the CDC if I feel comfortable to sail.  I have gone to work everyday during this, in the healthcare industry.  Is being on a ship worse?

Just a note:  So far, if you believe the numbers, a little over 100,000 more people have died from this than the 2018 Swine Flu, that nobody heard about.  Killed 500,000 people worldwide.

Edited July 23, 2020 by KennyFla

[Kevin79]

3 hours ago, KennyFla said:

I really don't think it should be up to the CDC

It certainly should be up to national health organisations. Covid is not SARS or MERS - they went away after limited issue. We have affective treatment for flu and annual vaccinations. There are relatively OK treatments for novel flu pandemics such as tamiflu which was utilised in 2009, while they produce a new vaccine.

 

The problem with Covid is there isn't an effective treatment or vaccine base. It's not just your health but they health of everyone that needs to be considered. Covid is also NOT the flu.

[Hlitner]

6 hours ago, Kevin79 said:

Smallpox was around for 1000s of years, then we got the technology to develop vaccines and it went. The prevalent flu virus in northern/southern hemisphere changes each year so we have a new vaccine. We are also able to stop the spread of flu with a lot of basic hygiene such as hand washing etc. Not everyone has a flu jab; it's aimed at those most at risk i.e. underlying health conditions, very young and old. THe industry also continued to sail with the flu being about.

There are some very interesting dynamics relating to influenza.  It is actually 4 main flu strains with some variations for each.  Each strain requires a different vaccine and it is not currently possible to use a single flu shot to protect against all the known strains.  Hence, the International authorities make an annual educated guess (on which strains) and are often wrong :(.  To make matters worse, fewer then 50% of souls in industrialized countries even bother to get a flu shot.  We (society) have simply chosen to live with that risk which can be a real problem on cruise ships (along with Noro virus).  We have been on several cruises with flu outbreaks and it is not a pretty thing.  

 

But COVID-19 has literally changed everything.  It has forced passengers, government agencies, port authorities, and others to finally face up to the reality of cruise ships.  They are floating petri dishes which not only put those aboard at risk but also help spread various bugs to shore.  I suspect that cruise ports will no longer look the other way when ships have flu, Noro and other bugs.  It is possible that many ports around the world will never, again, be so welcoming to cruise ships.  After the Diamond Princess fiasco there is little impetus for the Japanese authorities to open up their country to future cruises.  It is a minor part of their huge tourist industry but the Diamond Princess showed how the risk-benefit is out of synch.

 

It is hard to imagine a positive scenario for the future of cruising.  I can see a future in which there will be more health checks, proof of vaccinations will become a norm for some travel (including cruises), and there will be fewer ports welcoming ships.   Those who count themselves in the "anti vaccination" crowd will discover that their belief comes with numerous travel (and possibly school) restrictions.  In simple terms, if you want to travel internationally you will likely need to carry some kind of official "shot record" like we used to have in the ole days.  I still have my yellow vaccination booklet (from the 60s) full of stamps representing the many shots/vaccinations that existed at that time.  DW and I still have valid Yellow Fever vaccination certificates.  

 

The cruise lines are all being sued (multiple lawsuits) for their action/inaction vis-a-vis COVID-19.  There will likely be some huge future suits by crew members who have found themselves imprisoned (for months) on various ships.  The cruise lines will be forced (kicking and screaming) into a world where they will have to say, "no flu shot....no cruise!"   "No Covid-19 shot...no cruise."   "No MMR shot....no cruise."  etc etc.

 

Hank