Muster Drill

[ontheweb]

10 hours ago, lyannea said:

I’ve always thought that the best time to have the muster drill is at check in.

 

They could have a room set up for 100-200 people before you check in. 
after the drill, you check in, with a stamp saying you attended the drill.

and

you DON’T get your room key, till you go to the Muster station to pick it up

and

everyone in your cabin HAS to pick up keys at the same time.

 

No key, no drinkie 🍸 🍹 🍷 🍺 

 

 

That does not address Chengkp75's point that the main purpose of the muster drill is for the crew to interact with the passengers to be able to "herd" them..

[Oldpeoplecruising]

On 5/20/2020 at 8:53 PM, Elaine5715 said:

Because people need a "muscle memory" of where to go to muster.  It isn't just about how to put on your vest. They want you to have been at least once to the physical part of the ship where you would be required to report 

Then why not just have a crew member there collecting the verification pins that were suggested.   I also realize that people would probably turn on the muster info in their room and unpack while it plays and not really pay attention to it... and just turn in the codes.... but just like the safety drill on airplanes... almost no one really pays attention anyway.  They are busy reading their books... listening to their music or show... etc.   

 

[Oldpeoplecruising]

On 5/21/2020 at 2:54 PM, lazydayz said:

We have had several indoors as well, without going to lifeboats after.  Royal filed for copyright or trademark protection within the last two months for something called "E-muster."  That is all of the info I have on it, but it is a good indication that new muster drills will be electronic.   

 

I don't see us having to stand through muster again, shoulder to shoulder with hundreds of other cruisers.  Maybe they just give us a window to check in at the lifeboats after the E-muster.  If Royal does it, pretty sure that Carnival and Norwegian will follow.

 

Some of the changes from this pandemic will be good, if we just survive it.  

that would be nice.  I would love to complete my muster drill before I even got onboard.

 

[ontheweb]

21 minutes ago, Oldpeoplecruising said:

Then why not just have a crew member there collecting the verification pins that were suggested.   I also realize that people would probably turn on the muster info in their room and unpack while it plays and not really pay attention to it... and just turn in the codes.... but just like the safety drill on airplanes... almost no one really pays attention anyway.  They are busy reading their books... listening to their music or show... etc.   

 

There is a major difference between emergency procedures on a cruise ship and an airplane. The airplane crew does not need to practice getting the passengers where they need to go; they are already "herded".

[Elaine5715]

2 hours ago, Oldpeoplecruising said:

Then why not just have a crew member there collecting the verification pins that were suggested.   I also realize that people would probably turn on the muster info in their room and unpack while it plays and not really pay attention to it... and just turn in the codes.... but just like the safety drill on airplanes... almost no one really pays attention anyway.  They are busy reading their books... listening to their music or show... etc.   

 

 

On 5/22/2020 at 6:48 AM, chengkp75 said:

The passenger muster is a drill.  It is as much a drill for the crew involved as for the passengers, since this is the only time the crew actually get the ability to "herd cats", and learn the problems and difficulties of dealing with large groups of passengers.  As a drill, SOLAS requires all drills to be "as realistic as possible", so that those participating in the drill know, to a degree, what an actual emergency would be like.  Changes to muster drills to remove the actual gathering of passengers into their controlled and accountable stations, in numbers, would require changes to SOLAS via the IMO, and also the class societies.  Regardless of RCI trademarking "E-muster", I don't see that happening in the future, unless it is as a temporary measure during the early stages of the restart of cruising.

 

As for hearing what is said at muster drill, most of that is not required, and is filler, but the required information, including the instructions on donning life jackets has for years been allowed to be done via cabin TV.  In reality, there are only two things you need to learn or know about the passenger muster;  show up,  and shut up.

Read the responses by Chief and understand what muster drills are for...as someone else posted (my apologies for not crediting) in a plane, you are already at your meeting spot

[lazydayz]

Safety drills are for preparations for an emergency evacuation.  No matter how many times you "practice", this is going to be chaos.  If we know where to go, we will find our muster points or lifeboats. 

 

Rules and regulations are meant to be changed, and I see many changes that have already occurred and many more coming our way as a result of the pandemic.  Why would the muster drill be exempt from change?  It was one practice that was ripe for change.  Heck, I remember when we had to wear our life jackets to the drill.  

[Oldpeoplecruising]

You mu

47 minutes ago, Elaine5715 said:

 

Read the responses by Chief and understand what muster drills are for...as someone else posted (my apologies for not crediting) in a plane, you are already at your meeting spot

I read the responses, thank you.    You apparently didnt understand my response.       You can get  people together to go over the drill as much as you want.... but most wont pay attention while there thus my analogy to the safety precautions on planes and how few people pay attention to them.   That was the basic premise since I was apparently unclear. I re-read my statement and realize I forgot to finish a thought.   That when they have watched the video... they could turn the codes from the TV in to the ship employee at the muster station they are assigned to so they know where their muster station is.   I DO understand what muster drills are for.   And not like they are just waiting on suggestions... but I provided what I feel was an equitable solution to people not wanting to attend but they still want  everyone to know where to meet and at least provide general guidelines for an emergency situation.   An exercise in "herding cats" is not necessary.   If the crew is not prepared after doing this a few times a week, then nothing will prepare them.   When people get into a crisis, their first thought is not " Now gee.... what did they say in the muster drill I should do if the boat is on fire?" Their first thought will likely be save as much of their stuff as possible and get away from the fire.    Chaos will be an understatement.    

Edited June 4, 2020 by Oldpeoplecruising

[Oldpeoplecruising]

3 hours ago, ontheweb said:

There is a major difference between emergency procedures on a cruise ship and an airplane. The airplane crew does not need to practice getting the passengers where they need to go; they are already "herded".

Actually there is no difference between it.    If they have to report to their muster zone with a code the indicates that they have watched the information... and they turn it in to the muster drill station they are to meet if an emergency were to actually happen..... Then both objectives have been achieved.   They know where the spot is and they can verify that they supposedly watched the video on the emergency procedures.  Trust me... in an emergency situation people will NOT be reacting as quietly and as calmly as they do when they are ignoring the people doing the in person muster drill.     This is not a lesson in "herding cats" as someone used for an analogy.       Try like herding Tazmanian Devils if there is a true emergency.  I work in an emergency room.  I guarantee people are not as calm and it will be NOTHING like a muster drill if something really does happen.  

 

[ontheweb]

2 hours ago, Oldpeoplecruising said:

Actually there is no difference between it.    If they have to report to their muster zone with a code the indicates that they have watched the information... and they turn it in to the muster drill station they are to meet if an emergency were to actually happen..... Then both objectives have been achieved.   They know where the spot is and they can verify that they supposedly watched the video on the emergency procedures.  Trust me... in an emergency situation people will NOT be reacting as quietly and as calmly as they do when they are ignoring the people doing the in person muster drill.     This is not a lesson in "herding cats" as someone used for an analogy.       Try like herding Tazmanian Devils if there is a true emergency.  I work in an emergency room.  I guarantee people are not as calm and it will be NOTHING like a muster drill if something really does happen.  

 

And your post really agrees more with mine and does not agree with your premise.

 

My post said the major difference was you did not have to go anywhere on a plane, you were already there. Your post undermines your while premise when you say "trust me...in an emergency situation people will NOT be reacting as quietly and as calmly as they do when they are ignoring the people doing the in person muster drill."  And that is precisely why on a ship the crew needs the drill to get their practice in while on an airplane they already have you where they need you. Again the point that seems to be missed is that the drill is more for the crew than the passengers. Modify it all you want for the passengers does not change that basic fact.

[Elaine5715]

5 hours ago, Oldpeoplecruising said:

You mu

I read the responses, thank you.    You apparently didnt understand my response.       You can get  people together to go over the drill as much as you want.... but most wont pay attention while there thus my analogy to the safety precautions on planes and how few people pay attention to them.   That was the basic premise since I was apparently unclear. I re-read my statement and realize I forgot to finish a thought.   That when they have watched the video... they could turn the codes from the TV in to the ship employee at the muster station they are assigned to so they know where their muster station is.   I DO understand what muster drills are for.   And not like they are just waiting on suggestions... but I provided what I feel was an equitable solution to people not wanting to attend but they still want  everyone to know where to meet and at least provide general guidelines for an emergency situation.   An exercise in "herding cats" is not necessary.   If the crew is not prepared after doing this a few times a week, then nothing will prepare them.   When people get into a crisis, their first thought is not " Now gee.... what did they say in the muster drill I should do if the boat is on fire?" Their first thought will likely be save as much of their stuff as possible and get away from the fire.    Chaos will be an understatement.    

It isn't about the guests.  It is about the crew training.  Crew can't practice herding drunk kittens if the kittens are in their rooms. The drunk kittens need to learn to minimally learn  to  follow crew directions.  Crew also change weekly and you don't run a drill once or twice.  You run it again and again.  Each herd is unpredictable and you could have a dozen passive cruises and then a problem bunch pops up.  

[Oldpeoplecruising]

3 hours ago, Elaine5715 said:

It isn't about the guests.  It is about the crew training.  Crew can't practice herding drunk kittens if the kittens are in their rooms. The drunk kittens need to learn to minimally learn  to  follow crew directions.  Crew also change weekly and you don't run a drill once or twice.  You run it again and again.  Each herd is unpredictable and you could have a dozen passive cruises and then a problem bunch pops up.  

Right.   If it is just for the crew then they whole purpose is pointless.   Again.... as someone who deals with people in emergency situations daily.... your behavior during a practice exercise is DRASTICALLY different then during a real emergency.    So getting the crew ready for a scenario that will never happen..... pointless.  Total waste of time.

 

[Joe817]

8 minutes ago, Oldpeoplecruising said:

Right.   If it is just for the crew then they whole purpose is pointless.   Again.... as someone who deals with people in emergency situations daily.... your behavior during a practice exercise is DRASTICALLY different then during a real emergency.    So getting the crew ready for a scenario that will never happen..... pointless.  Total waste of time.

 

During a real emergency, I, as a passenger, would have no clue as where to go in the event if that happened, if it were not for the muster drill. I know where my life jacket is and know how to put it on, but after that....I'm clueless as to where to go, for it not for the muster drill. It could save my life and the majority of the other passengers, if I/we know where to go if an emergency were to occur. The crew then could steer us to the lifeboats, and get on those lifeboats. 

 

If I were in my cabin and watching the tv videos of muster drill, it would not help  me in the least where I need to go to find out my lifeboat station. And I think that's important. That's why I have NO problem with going through those pain in the ass muster drills. 

[Elaine5715]

19 minutes ago, Oldpeoplecruising said:

Right.   If it is just for the crew then they whole purpose is pointless.   Again.... as someone who deals with people in emergency situations daily.... your behavior during a practice exercise is DRASTICALLY different then during a real emergency.    So getting the crew ready for a scenario that will never happen..... pointless.  Total waste of time.

 

Pointless?  You mean like learning  CPR or the Helmlich? 

[Oldpeoplecruising]

2 minutes ago, Joe817 said:

During a real emergency, I, as a passenger, would have no clue as where to go in the event if that happened, if it were not for the muster drill. I know where my life jacket is and know how to put it on, but after that....I'm clueless as to where to go, for it not for the muster drill. It could save my life and the majority of the other passengers, if I/we know where to go if an emergency were to occur. The crew then could steer us to the lifeboats, and get on those lifeboats. 

 

If I were in my cabin and watching the tv videos of muster drill, it would not help  me in the least where I need to go to find out my lifeboat station. And I think that's important. That's why I have NO problem with going through those pain in the ass muster drills. 

But see... I addressed that with saying that you would have to turn in codes that were given to you during the muster drill video that you watched in your room at your assigned muster point.  This way you get the information... but you ALSO know where you are to meet in the case of a real emergency.    And they could guarantee that you not miss doing that by not activating things on your sail card until you have done your muster drill and reported to your assigned location .     So... say for example.. you may not use your card to get drinks or food until you have completed your muster drill video and turned in the information to the assigned location.    At that point.... the employee there could activate your card and you are free to start your vacation.  🙂

 

[Oldpeoplecruising]

2 minutes ago, Elaine5715 said:

Pointless?  You mean like learning  CPR or the Helmlich? 

Way to totally misconstrue the meaning of what I said!  You win the internet today!    

[Joe817]

3 minutes ago, Oldpeoplecruising said:

But see... I addressed that with saying that you would have to turn in codes that were given to you during the muster drill video that you watched in your room at your assigned muster point.  This way you get the information... but you ALSO know where you are to meet in the case of a real emergency.    And they could guarantee that you not miss doing that by not activating things on your sail card until you have done your muster drill and reported to your assigned location .     So... say for example.. you may not use your card to get drinks or food until you have completed your muster drill video and turned in the information to the assigned location.    At that point.... the employee there could activate your card and you are free to start your vacation.  🙂

 

For many people, me included, a ship is a rather claustrophobic experience, with very low ceilings, and it is very easy to get disoriented. Unless you actually go to the muster station and are there for any length of time, I do not believe that there is any way you could find your way there by watching a video, then walking by, and dropping your coin or what ever, into a hat or what ever, that you would ever find your way to your designated area unless you stay there for any length of time to orient yourself to where you are supposed to go. 

 

I am through with this debate that's quickly turning into a circular firing squad. Do what you want. I support the muster drill. 

[chengkp75]

15 hours ago, Oldpeoplecruising said:

I work in an emergency room.  I guarantee people are not as calm and it will be NOTHING like a muster drill if something really does happen.

I salute your service in an ER.  My expertise is in marine engineering, and concurrently with that, 45 years of marine safety culture.  Do emergencies in your ER involve moving large numbers of patients 10 floors and hundreds of feet of corridors in as little time as possible, and then accounting for those people so that others who are dealing with an emergency know whether or not those crew have to spend resources looking for missing people, and where those missing people might be, like in the middle of the fire?  I've seen and done my fair share of marine emergencies over the years, and while you are correct that behavior changes when there is an actual emergency, how you train is how you respond, so the more realistic the exercise, the better the "muscle memory" will overcome instinct.

6 hours ago, Oldpeoplecruising said:

Right.   If it is just for the crew then they whole purpose is pointless.   Again.... as someone who deals with people in emergency situations daily.... your behavior during a practice exercise is DRASTICALLY different then during a real emergency.    So getting the crew ready for a scenario that will never happen..... pointless.  Total waste of time.

It is not just for the crew.  It is also for the crew.  While the level of inaction and resistance to control by the passengers will be vastly greater in an actual emergency, the muster drill gives crew training in "crowd and crisis management" by using actual masses of people, and dealing with at least minor problems, which can help them learn to deal with major problems during a real emergency.  So, in your emergency training, since your responses, and those of the people playing the part of patients, is drastically different than in a real emergency, are all your training drills a "total waste of time", or is that just the judgement for the marine industry.  The muster drill also starts to train the passengers, to what a real emergency would look like, with thousands of people all flocking to their muster stations.

 

Based on my years of sea time, I support the statement of another CC member, who is a USCG incident investigator, who said, "trading one form of safety (the muster drill) for another form of safety (social distancing) is not a sound idea."

[PhillyFan33579]

8 hours ago, Oldpeoplecruising said:

But see... I addressed that with saying that you would have to turn in codes that were given to you during the muster drill video that you watched in your room at your assigned muster point.  This way you get the information... but you ALSO know where you are to meet in the case of a real emergency.    And they could guarantee that you not miss doing that by not activating things on your sail card until you have done your muster drill and reported to your assigned location .     So... say for example.. you may not use your card to get drinks or food until you have completed your muster drill video and turned in the information to the assigned location.    At that point.... the employee there could activate your card and you are free to start your vacation.  🙂

 

From reading all your comments in this thread I get the impression you haven’t been on many cruises. You don’t seem to grasp the concept of the reason for the muster drill. Also, you don’t need your card to drink or eat when you first get on the ship. 

[bafinegan]

This "muscle memory" is exactly why different "codes" are practiced over and over again at hospitals.  Repetition creates this muscle memory which in term helps to ensure staff ( and in the case of muster drills-passengers) have a better chance of doing those actions that just might save their lives.  As a retired nurse, I have been thru HUNDREDS of "practice code blues" .  It got to the point that I didn't have to stop and think to initiate the basic live saving procedures ( CPR, apply heart monitor, which drugs to give based on the given situation) because I had practiced them SO MANY TIMES that it was almost a habit.  This allowed focus on whatever circumstances were different from the "norm" and we could react accordingly.  

 

Therefore, even tho those drills are a pain, I do understand and will continue to cheerfully follow whatever directions are given me in this regard.

 

baf

[Elaine5715]

12 hours ago, Oldpeoplecruising said:

Way to totally misconstrue the meaning of what I said!  You win the internet today!    

Why?  I have taken hours in training in both,  yet never used either so I guess it was pointless.  But I would guess those that "practice" regularly with real people, not watching a video, are much better at doing it with the ability to rely on muscle memory and imbedded training techniques. 

Thanks, I win the internet so frequently I am out of trophy space.  

[hyerpraise]

What if, there were crew positioned at all the muster stations from 1pm-3:30pm on day of boarding.  Each passenger will have to go to their respective muster location and the crew will scan each passengers sign/sail card (each passenger must be present).  This would take care of the 'find your muster station' part of the muster drill.  Then at the time of the muster drill: the alarm is sounded and all passengers must report to their cabins.  The crew members will scan each sign/sail card (each passenger must be present) and over the loud speaker the briefing will be given.  This will take care of the information part of the muster drill.  

[ontheweb]

2 hours ago, hyerpraise said:

What if, there were crew positioned at all the muster stations from 1pm-3:30pm on day of boarding.  Each passenger will have to go to their respective muster location and the crew will scan each passengers sign/sail card (each passenger must be present).  This would take care of the 'find your muster station' part of the muster drill.  Then at the time of the muster drill: the alarm is sounded and all passengers must report to their cabins.  The crew members will scan each sign/sail card (each passenger must be present) and over the loud speaker the briefing will be given.  This will take care of the information part of the muster drill.  

I should let chengkp75 answer this, but how does this give the crew a drill in herding the passengers?

[lazydayz]

5 hours ago, ontheweb said:

I should let chengkp75 answer this, but how does this give the crew a drill in herding the passengers?

The  crew has no problem with giving us directions. They do it all the time. Think about the main dining room, getting to a show, getting off in ports and getting back on.  If there’s an emergency, I will return to my muster station.  Herd cattle, not cruisers.

[ontheweb]

Just now, lazydayz said:

The  crew has no problem with giving us directions. They do it all the time. Think about the main dining room, getting to a show, getting off in ports and getting back on.  If there’s an emergency, I will return to my muster station.  Herd cattle, not cruisers.

You really don't see a difference between giving directions to one or two people and having to give directions to all of the passengers at the same time? Why do you think fire companies, police forces, and ambulance personnel for instance have lots of drills?

[chengkp75]

39 minutes ago, lazydayz said:

Herd cattle, not cruisers.

Having taken part in well over 100 passenger drills, I can tell you that it always involves, "herding cats".